Let’s return to the things which justify our choice of hollow-point bullets. A major factor – the one that convinced police chiefs in even the most “politically-correct” cities to insist on this ammo when some were calling for a ban on “dum-dum bullets” – was reduced penetration. Cops called them “controlled expansion rounds” because as the nose of the hollow-point bullet widened as it passed through flesh, it met more resistance and came to a stop sooner. Therefore, it was more likely to stay inside the only backstop the Good Guy or Gal pulling the trigger had: the body of the violent criminal attacker. Self-defense shootings, after all, aren’t likely to take place on gun ranges with the Bad Guy standing in front of a backstop.
Your typical military “ball” ammunition will tend to shoot through and through a human body with more than enough power to kill another human standing behind the intended recipient of the projectile. A full metal jacket (FMJ) round nose 9mm bullet will pierce two feet or more of ballistic gelatin, which is designed to replicate the resistance of human muscle tissue. A .45 “hardball” round in this configuration will penetrate 26” to 30” depending on the load. A human thorax is simply not that deep, nor that solid. Stand three average adult men in line: such a bullet will completely perforate the upper torso of the first, enter the chest and exit the back of the second, and lodge deep in the body of the third. It can kill three people in a row, two of them theoretically innocent bystanders.
“Just be sure of your target and background” is altogether too simplistic an approach to reducing that danger. Tunnel vision is known to occur in a majority of gunfight participants. Darkness may hide the innocent from the sight of the Good Guy who is firing. The Bad Guy’s body may even physically block the Good Guy’s view. This is why it’s important to have a bullet which is highly likely to remain in the intended target and not pass through.
You’ll hear the argument, “There’s more danger to bystanders from misses than from over-penetration, and you’re likely to miss some anyway, so don’t worry about it.” That is “apples and oranges,” and terribly short-sighted. It’s like saying “Don’t be afraid of herpes, AIDS is worse.” In each example, the smart person wants to avoid both bad outcomes.
Let’s say you come under fire from an armed robber this very night, and have no choice but to shoot back. One of your shots misses and strikes a bystander. It is tragic, but you have a very strong defense: in the Doctrine of Competing Harms, your disciplined defensive gunfire presented less danger to innocents behind the Bad Guy than his wanton, criminal gunfire presented to the innocents behind you. You were forced into difficult circumstances (a moving target in the dark, as you ducked desperately to avoid being shot as you returned fire), and the proximate cause of your less than perfect marksmanship was his action, not yours. It will very likely be seen as excusable: that is, it shouldn’t have happened, but it would have happened to any cautious, competent person in the same situation you had been forced into.
But let’s say your full metal jacket .45 ball round hit the bad guy in the chest, exited his back, and then struck the unseen bystander. You had ample time beforehand to select appropriate ammunition, and you knew or should have known this could happen…yet you used the wrong ammo anyway. Now, opposing counsel has the ingredients to cook up a recipe of “willful, wanton disregard for innocent human life” on your part.
So, reduced likelihood of dangerous over-penetration is one strong reason to use hollow points…but not the ONLY reason. There are more, and we’ll discuss them as this series continues.
Federal HST 230gr +P .45 caliber bullet shown here expanded, retrieved from hog.
i think some examples and real world numbers would help to drive the point home. i.e. NYPD & LAPD both switched from FMJ to HP in 1999.
i am researching before/after numbers of bystanders and other officers being hit by pass-through bullets.
further reading: Mas, Concealed Carry, “The Dangers of Over-penetrating bullets… 7 cases highlight the reality”, Pages 86-92.
i think some examples and real world numbers would help to drive the point home. i.e. NYPD & LAPD both switched from FMJ to HP in 1999.
i am researching before/after numbers of bystanders and other officers being hit by pass-through bullets.
further reading: Mas, Concealed Carry, “The Dangers of Over-penetrating bullets… 7 cases highlight the reality”, Pages 86-92.
i think some examples and real world numbers would help to drive the point home. i.e. NYPD & LAPD both switched from FMJ to HP in 1999.
i am researching before/after numbers of bystanders and other officers being hit by pass-through bullets.
further reading: Mas, Concealed Carry, “The Dangers of Over-penetrating bullets… 7 cases highlight the reality”, Pages 86-92.
Even when you *can* see the what’s directly behind the bad guy, bullets passing through a body can easily change direction and come out at some odd angle, if they haven’t yet come to a stop. You have to have a really big backstop — such as one finds at a range — to make that safe.
Even when you *can* see the what’s directly behind the bad guy, bullets passing through a body can easily change direction and come out at some odd angle, if they haven’t yet come to a stop. You have to have a really big backstop — such as one finds at a range — to make that safe.
At least your logic for using expanding bullets sounds better than “It was on sale at Walmart”.
Come to think of it, I am not sure that Walmart even carries, or sells, hand gun ammunition any more, being over PC now-a-days?
At least your logic for using expanding bullets sounds better than “It was on sale at Walmart”.
Come to think of it, I am not sure that Walmart even carries, or sells, hand gun ammunition any more, being over PC now-a-days?
At least your logic for using expanding bullets sounds better than “It was on sale at Walmart”.
Come to think of it, I am not sure that Walmart even carries, or sells, hand gun ammunition any more, being over PC now-a-days?
At least your logic for using expanding bullets sounds better than “It was on sale at Walmart”.
Come to think of it, I am not sure that Walmart even carries, or sells, hand gun ammunition any more, being over PC now-a-days?
Thank you Mr. Ayoob for sharing this important knowledge with all of us. For those of us that carry it’s important to understand what could happen and why in the event of a shootout. I pray I will never find out first hand.
Thank you Mr. Ayoob for sharing this important knowledge with all of us. For those of us that carry it’s important to understand what could happen and why in the event of a shootout. I pray I will never find out first hand.
The issue of ammo shortages and sales strategies is a real concern. I expect a lot of “range ammo” not suited for self defense is sold and sits in guns that may be used for self defense. Case in point, our Walmart has some very good prices on range packs of 9mm, .40, and .45. It’s much more visible than the Federal Hyrdashock. The gentleman working the counter seemed knowledgeable about the .223 I was buying for coyote hunting but I wouldn’t place money on any employee actually being trained or encouraged to give advice on self defense issues. I have even heard of a store refusing to sell ammo labelled as personal defense when the customer told them it was for personal defense! Mas, keep on giving good advice. A lot of us listen and learn.
The issue of ammo shortages and sales strategies is a real concern. I expect a lot of “range ammo” not suited for self defense is sold and sits in guns that may be used for self defense. Case in point, our Walmart has some very good prices on range packs of 9mm, .40, and .45. It’s much more visible than the Federal Hyrdashock. The gentleman working the counter seemed knowledgeable about the .223 I was buying for coyote hunting but I wouldn’t place money on any employee actually being trained or encouraged to give advice on self defense issues. I have even heard of a store refusing to sell ammo labelled as personal defense when the customer told them it was for personal defense! Mas, keep on giving good advice. A lot of us listen and learn.
The issue of ammo shortages and sales strategies is a real concern. I expect a lot of “range ammo” not suited for self defense is sold and sits in guns that may be used for self defense. Case in point, our Walmart has some very good prices on range packs of 9mm, .40, and .45. It’s much more visible than the Federal Hyrdashock. The gentleman working the counter seemed knowledgeable about the .223 I was buying for coyote hunting but I wouldn’t place money on any employee actually being trained or encouraged to give advice on self defense issues. I have even heard of a store refusing to sell ammo labelled as personal defense when the customer told them it was for personal defense! Mas, keep on giving good advice. A lot of us listen and learn.
Buyers of body armor should be run for criminal histories and if there’s a record of violent crimes such as robbery or homicide, then they should be sold vests with a front panel made of canvas and the rear constructed of Kevlar. That way when the bad guy/gal wears their vest while committing a crime and get shot, the bullet(s) will penetrate the front panel and be stopped by the rear Kevlar section, thus protecting innocents behind them.
Hopefully, the criminals are not so dumb that they will mistakenly wear their vests backwards. This can be avoided by printing on the front canvas panel
the same instructions on a Claymore mine, “This side towards enemy.”
Buyers of body armor should be run for criminal histories and if there’s a record of violent crimes such as robbery or homicide, then they should be sold vests with a front panel made of canvas and the rear constructed of Kevlar. That way when the bad guy/gal wears their vest while committing a crime and get shot, the bullet(s) will penetrate the front panel and be stopped by the rear Kevlar section, thus protecting innocents behind them.
Hopefully, the criminals are not so dumb that they will mistakenly wear their vests backwards. This can be avoided by printing on the front canvas panel
the same instructions on a Claymore mine, “This side towards enemy.”
Buyers of body armor should be run for criminal histories and if there’s a record of violent crimes such as robbery or homicide, then they should be sold vests with a front panel made of canvas and the rear constructed of Kevlar. That way when the bad guy/gal wears their vest while committing a crime and get shot, the bullet(s) will penetrate the front panel and be stopped by the rear Kevlar section, thus protecting innocents behind them.
Hopefully, the criminals are not so dumb that they will mistakenly wear their vests backwards. This can be avoided by printing on the front canvas panel
the same instructions on a Claymore mine, “This side towards enemy.”
I seem to recall having read of experiments with 9mm Lugers in Nazi concentration camps, and how many people of the same height could be exterminated with one headshot cartridge, lined up front-to-back. I believe the number was seven. Odd that they would keep such scrupulous track of these “efficiencies”; odder still that this stuck in my mind for over 30 years.
I seem to recall having read of experiments with 9mm Lugers in Nazi concentration camps, and how many people of the same height could be exterminated with one headshot cartridge, lined up front-to-back. I believe the number was seven. Odd that they would keep such scrupulous track of these “efficiencies”; odder still that this stuck in my mind for over 30 years.
I will print this whole series and mail it to myself via registered mail!
Thanks for great information that explains why the responsibly armed citizen
chooses hollow points
I pray that I’ll never have to use this info. in a court of law.
I will print this whole series and mail it to myself via registered mail!
Thanks for great information that explains why the responsibly armed citizen
chooses hollow points
I pray that I’ll never have to use this info. in a court of law.
I will print this whole series and mail it to myself via registered mail!
Thanks for great information that explains why the responsibly armed citizen
chooses hollow points
I pray that I’ll never have to use this info. in a court of law.
It might help the cause if ammo consumers (us) weren’t so enamored and taken in by ammo manufacturer’s marketing.
“Black Talon”, “maximum rapid expansion”, “TNT”, “Zombie Killer”, “+P+”, I could go on and on, but you get my point.
Maybe it would sound better if defensive loads were labelled “Bare Minimum” or “Ultra Safe/ Minimally Invasive Load” or something along those lines.
It might help the cause if ammo consumers (us) weren’t so enamored and taken in by ammo manufacturer’s marketing.
“Black Talon”, “maximum rapid expansion”, “TNT”, “Zombie Killer”, “+P+”, I could go on and on, but you get my point.
Maybe it would sound better if defensive loads were labelled “Bare Minimum” or “Ultra Safe/ Minimally Invasive Load” or something along those lines.
If you do use ball ammo for defense, wouldn’t you be able to produce reams of information, some from very official sources demanding it’s use?
And I still want to know about the Biden Defense in that shotgun discharge affair.
Geoff
Who is very wary of public perceptions, cross reference the “Stand Your Ground” protests here in Florida, “Special TORTURE BULLETS!” or words to that effect.
If you do use ball ammo for defense, wouldn’t you be able to produce reams of information, some from very official sources demanding it’s use?
And I still want to know about the Biden Defense in that shotgun discharge affair.
Geoff
Who is very wary of public perceptions, cross reference the “Stand Your Ground” protests here in Florida, “Special TORTURE BULLETS!” or words to that effect.
If you do use ball ammo for defense, wouldn’t you be able to produce reams of information, some from very official sources demanding it’s use?
And I still want to know about the Biden Defense in that shotgun discharge affair.
Geoff
Who is very wary of public perceptions, cross reference the “Stand Your Ground” protests here in Florida, “Special TORTURE BULLETS!” or words to that effect.
If you do use ball ammo for defense, wouldn’t you be able to produce reams of information, some from very official sources demanding it’s use?
And I still want to know about the Biden Defense in that shotgun discharge affair.
Geoff
Who is very wary of public perceptions, cross reference the “Stand Your Ground” protests here in Florida, “Special TORTURE BULLETS!” or words to that effect.
Geoff, you could do that. But a defense of “I loaded with ball because old activists who didn ‘t know crap about guns or bullets said it was more humane” probably won’t get far. Careful cross-examination will bring out the fact that you knew beforehand ball ammo was likely to shoot through a criminal opponent with enough power to kill a predictable, unseen bystander even if everything went perfect, and opposing counsel’s attempt to make you appear to have reckless, wanton disregard for human life will remain intact.
Geoff, you could do that. But a defense of “I loaded with ball because old activists who didn ‘t know crap about guns or bullets said it was more humane” probably won’t get far. Careful cross-examination will bring out the fact that you knew beforehand ball ammo was likely to shoot through a criminal opponent with enough power to kill a predictable, unseen bystander even if everything went perfect, and opposing counsel’s attempt to make you appear to have reckless, wanton disregard for human life will remain intact.
” ‘Just be sure of your target and background’ is altogether too simplistic an approach to reducing that danger.” It is indeed, and my concerns about this approach are even stronger than yours seem to be.
This advice seems to imply that an armed citizen defending himself can take the shot whenever he wants to. If the backstop isn’t safe, he can wait until it is.
But if someone has to use deadly force in the first place, that means he’s run out of better options. He can either shoot or let innocent people die. In such a case, I can see a responsible citizen taking the shot even if he knows it’s unsafe. The situation as a whole is even less safe.
There may be cases in which an armed citizen could wait for the ideal shot, but I’d think they’d be very rare. The good guy doesn’t get to choose the location or the timing of a self-defense situation.
” ‘Just be sure of your target and background’ is altogether too simplistic an approach to reducing that danger.” It is indeed, and my concerns about this approach are even stronger than yours seem to be.
This advice seems to imply that an armed citizen defending himself can take the shot whenever he wants to. If the backstop isn’t safe, he can wait until it is.
But if someone has to use deadly force in the first place, that means he’s run out of better options. He can either shoot or let innocent people die. In such a case, I can see a responsible citizen taking the shot even if he knows it’s unsafe. The situation as a whole is even less safe.
There may be cases in which an armed citizen could wait for the ideal shot, but I’d think they’d be very rare. The good guy doesn’t get to choose the location or the timing of a self-defense situation.
” ‘Just be sure of your target and background’ is altogether too simplistic an approach to reducing that danger.” It is indeed, and my concerns about this approach are even stronger than yours seem to be.
This advice seems to imply that an armed citizen defending himself can take the shot whenever he wants to. If the backstop isn’t safe, he can wait until it is.
But if someone has to use deadly force in the first place, that means he’s run out of better options. He can either shoot or let innocent people die. In such a case, I can see a responsible citizen taking the shot even if he knows it’s unsafe. The situation as a whole is even less safe.
There may be cases in which an armed citizen could wait for the ideal shot, but I’d think they’d be very rare. The good guy doesn’t get to choose the location or the timing of a self-defense situation.
Looking forward to the rest of this series. Nothing new so far, but Mas’ crystal-clear thoughts are always a great read and full of important reminders. I’ll confess to having been swayed somewhat by past arguments about misses being a bigger concern than over-penetration so this got me to slightly re-adjust my position on the matter. It’s all too easy for us .45 ACP fans to start thinking that FMJ should do the trick just fine.
Looking forward to the rest of this series. Nothing new so far, but Mas’ crystal-clear thoughts are always a great read and full of important reminders. I’ll confess to having been swayed somewhat by past arguments about misses being a bigger concern than over-penetration so this got me to slightly re-adjust my position on the matter. It’s all too easy for us .45 ACP fans to start thinking that FMJ should do the trick just fine.
While I understand the thinking behind hollow point bullets for serious social purposes, the hollow point bullet has always been a catch -22.—- Will this cartridge feed and eject in my auto loader? The only way to find out is to fire it!
Most experts including you Mas, say to fire 200 rds of your hollow point ammo before staking your life on it. Currently high performance HP ammo, if you can find it will run you between $1 and $1.50 each. That is about $300 and of course you will need some for carry so you will probably need about 50 rds more. It does you no good to buy a box every so often as you want them all from the same lot. After shooting up 150 rds in various drills you get a malfunction. You study it to make sure that it wasn’t something you did, a(limp wrist, bad mag, dirty gun etc.) Well you now have some very expensive ammo for practice. Most stores will not take returns on ammo. Now your ammo trials begins all over again. Don’t forget that you need to test the ammo in hot weather and cold weather. On the other hand hard ball will feed in just about anything.
Better yet put aside the Glocks, M&Ps, 1911, etc and go with the old wheel gun! Guaranteed to fire anything that will fit in the chamber.
While I understand the thinking behind hollow point bullets for serious social purposes, the hollow point bullet has always been a catch -22.—- Will this cartridge feed and eject in my auto loader? The only way to find out is to fire it!
Most experts including you Mas, say to fire 200 rds of your hollow point ammo before staking your life on it. Currently high performance HP ammo, if you can find it will run you between $1 and $1.50 each. That is about $300 and of course you will need some for carry so you will probably need about 50 rds more. It does you no good to buy a box every so often as you want them all from the same lot. After shooting up 150 rds in various drills you get a malfunction. You study it to make sure that it wasn’t something you did, a(limp wrist, bad mag, dirty gun etc.) Well you now have some very expensive ammo for practice. Most stores will not take returns on ammo. Now your ammo trials begins all over again. Don’t forget that you need to test the ammo in hot weather and cold weather. On the other hand hard ball will feed in just about anything.
Better yet put aside the Glocks, M&Ps, 1911, etc and go with the old wheel gun! Guaranteed to fire anything that will fit in the chamber.
While I understand the thinking behind hollow point bullets for serious social purposes, the hollow point bullet has always been a catch -22.—- Will this cartridge feed and eject in my auto loader? The only way to find out is to fire it!
Most experts including you Mas, say to fire 200 rds of your hollow point ammo before staking your life on it. Currently high performance HP ammo, if you can find it will run you between $1 and $1.50 each. That is about $300 and of course you will need some for carry so you will probably need about 50 rds more. It does you no good to buy a box every so often as you want them all from the same lot. After shooting up 150 rds in various drills you get a malfunction. You study it to make sure that it wasn’t something you did, a(limp wrist, bad mag, dirty gun etc.) Well you now have some very expensive ammo for practice. Most stores will not take returns on ammo. Now your ammo trials begins all over again. Don’t forget that you need to test the ammo in hot weather and cold weather. On the other hand hard ball will feed in just about anything.
Better yet put aside the Glocks, M&Ps, 1911, etc and go with the old wheel gun! Guaranteed to fire anything that will fit in the chamber.
What about Hornady Critical Duty?
What about Hornady Critical Duty?
What about Hornady Critical Duty?
What about Hornady Critical Duty?
Randy, I hear ya…but whenever the cost/benefit issue comes up, I ask myself, “What is my life worth? What are the lives of my loved ones worth?”
Edwin, Hornady Critical Duty tests well in the lab, but you don’t see too many actual shootings with it. These days, we have so many loads that ARE street proven, I’m inclined to go in that direction.
Randy, I hear ya…but whenever the cost/benefit issue comes up, I ask myself, “What is my life worth? What are the lives of my loved ones worth?”
Edwin, Hornady Critical Duty tests well in the lab, but you don’t see too many actual shootings with it. These days, we have so many loads that ARE street proven, I’m inclined to go in that direction.
Great article – waiting for Part 3 and 4
Great article – waiting for Part 3 and 4
Great article – waiting for Part 3 and 4
I use Winchester White Box 9mm 115gr HP “Personal Defense” rounds, no scary marketing names, just “Personal Defense.” It’s all Mas’ fault, he made me paranoid. It feeds in all my 9mm pistols, is relatively inexpensive and as near as I can tell, performs like the Silver Tips I previously favored. It shoots to effectively identical point of impact as most 115gr ball for practice. Now finding ANY ammo of a specific brand and type is nearly impossible. Sigh.
Geoff
Who notes he cruises all the local ammo stores, .22LR? .22LR?? I’m working my way quickly through 15-20 year old ammo..
I use Winchester White Box 9mm 115gr HP “Personal Defense” rounds, no scary marketing names, just “Personal Defense.” It’s all Mas’ fault, he made me paranoid. It feeds in all my 9mm pistols, is relatively inexpensive and as near as I can tell, performs like the Silver Tips I previously favored. It shoots to effectively identical point of impact as most 115gr ball for practice. Now finding ANY ammo of a specific brand and type is nearly impossible. Sigh.
Geoff
Who notes he cruises all the local ammo stores, .22LR? .22LR?? I’m working my way quickly through 15-20 year old ammo..
Mr Ayoob,
One of the long time worries I have has been the legal topic of the type of ammo used in DGUs. As one mentioned above, the “names” of the ammo that are ultimately carried which may be used could be used in courts as killer ammo instead of defense ammo, or cop killer for example.
I am not beholding to any particular brand name of hollow point, but I do choose to only carry the ones that have the word “defense” on the box. My reasoning is that if I ever were to be involved in a DGU at least the box of ammo can be used in court as part of my defense is ammo that was chosen to defend myself only.
I don’t think the box of “Zombie Killer” ammo would work very well for me defending myself in court.
Or am I wrong in my thinking?