This is absolutely worth half an hour of your time:

Pr watch video here.

A panel of emergency services experts, not hostile to the armed citizen concept, discuss the  issues when armed Good Guys or Gals engage homicidal criminals.

27 COMMENTS

  1. Good advice. I am a firm advocate of lots of training and in “soft” stuff too, not just firearms manipulation. Getting more painful as I age but I am still active. Guy I do most of my training with complains that he sees almost all of his CCW trainees only at renewal time.

    My scenarios for engagement are extremely conservative. Since I am not LE, I am not obliged to run to the sound of the guns (though I have had that training) and I will try to evade. If, however, I am caught in the middle of something, it is not intervention, it is self-defense. I have once (twice actually but in the first I was five years old) been caught in the middle of something when guns were out. I did not engage and kept my hands in view but watched very carefully. I was thankful that the deputies were careful about where their guns were pointed and told them. No shots fired.

    I once participated in a police in-service which was oriented toward educating officers about handling both sides of the off-duty officer encounters. The instructor took advantage of my presence to talk about armed citizens as well.

  2. Interesting, thanks for the video Mas. A couple of thoughts, I think Bruce needs to go the range more! But seriously, as they were complaining about not being able to draw from the holster at the range, there was no mention that you can practice that at home. There are a lot of dry fire tools, I use that ‘dryfiremag’ in my glock, practice almost every night after work, I have the MantisX and use that for dry fire practice, I practice reloads and malfunction drills inside with inert ammo. There is no reason not to practice these skills. Although I get to shoot a lot, I have 2 ranges at my farm, I still dry fire regularly. The idea of holstering your weapon after the shooting, before the Police arrive is a great idea, I remember a CCW good guy who was shot by responding Police thinking he was the shooter. A weakness I see on my set up is weapon retention with concealed carry holsters… Yeah I have the Safariland on my belt, but that is a large setup, not carrying that to church! Any suggestions from the crew on retention holsters either IWB or OWB for concealed carry?

  3. I understand the concern about police mistaking a good guy with a gun for the bad guy or the good guys accidentally shooting someone they should not.

    But give the statistics, how many times have good guys intervened and stopped a threat. How many times have they shot the wrong person and how many times have they been shot by the police by mistake? What do the facts say?

    • Maybe we as gun owners, and law enforcement, and those who work in the legal system, need to aim at a perfect outcome, but not expect a perfect outcome in the real world. Combat is quick and confusing. Haste is required, but haste makes waste, doesn’t it?

    • ^ This.
      They made some good points about “what if” and talked about what they thought “might” happen. But what does actually happen?
      We had a speaker at one of our Texas Handgun Association conferences (Wish I could find his name) who laid it all out. There are few “good guy with a gun” stories because more than nine of every ten random mass killings happen in “gun-free” zones, where good guys are prohibited from having a gun. No U.S. armed civilian has ever killed an innocent person. Unless an armed person confronts the killer within 30 seconds the casualty count will usually be in double digits. Etc.

    • In practice, whenever an armed victim is involved, the danger is usually over long before any badges show up to the party. It’s an awful low-probability what-if.

      Contemplate it? Have a plan for it? Sure. Just know that it would be an outlier among outliers.

  4. Good video. As for training, I make it a point to participate in professional training at least annually and usually semiannually. Not just the mechanics, but law and scenarios. I find the scenarios the greatest value because I can evaluate how I respond personally to a threat and learn from my mistakes in a safe environment. (airsoft rounds hurt by the way 😁)

  5. well, well, well Mas. this sorta reinforces what you disagreed with me in Harrisburg, PA. i said there should be mandatory training when buying a pistol, you said it’s a “constitutional right” that requires no training. we agreed to disagree.

    EVERY aspect of this video mentions a modicum of training. for those of you on this thread who agree with Mas, i respect your opinion too. the sticking point with my concept, i have no answer how or who would do the required training.

    epstein didn’t kill himself…

  6. Due to a computer glitch, I didn’t get to watch the whole video. However, a few thoughts.

    Before you put on the white hat and run to the rescue, consider the following:

    Are you posilutely, absotively, bet your life and the welfare of your family certain that the bad person is acting alone? It’s not unknown for the bad person to have a backup lurking to deal with any would be hero/heroine. Several good Samaritans have died this way. [Note: per a USMC study, the effectiveness of a group doesn’t go up mathematically be size. It goes up by the square of the increase. 2 is 4 times more effective than 1, 3 is 9 times and so on.]

    That the background is safe.

    Be aware that not everyone present is going to be accepting/supportive of your actions even if successful. Some may feel that you recklessly endangered them.

    Finally, make sure that you aren’t holding a gun when the minions of justice arrive. Note the comment early on by the gent who felt he’d been in more danger from fellow LEOs than the threat. Not everyone is the epitome of muzzle discipline or judgement. The day someone dropped the communications with LLEA ball, was the day I quit delegating that particular task. Decades later, the story’s funny,

  7. If you don’t know the law in YOUR jurisdiction, AND, even if you do, and you intervene in what you judge to be an event that warrants your involvement – even though you have NO DUTY – ask Danny Penny what you should do. ONE YEAR after the event, a politically motivated prosecution w/o question, and he lucked out. Ya makes your choices and ya takes your consequences.

    • sage words from a very wise man! happy to see you chime in. it’s been a long time since seeing you. stay well and be happy…

    • I have the training, I keep current (weekly), I know the law, so does my wife, and after watching the video, especially with what just happened in NYC with USMC Sergeant Penny, I know absolutely for sure that unless I, or an immediate family member are being directly threatened, the weapon is staying in the holster. The risk is too high that I will be shot by another armed citizen or a good intentioned, but nervous LEO that is being thrust into the situation with split second decision making that society has now deemed must be perfect. Add on to the situation an almost certain civil law suit that will torment my family for years. No, the weapon stays put unless I, or immediate family, is threatened. Thank-you, it was worth the 30 minute viewing.

  8. Bill and Bruce both admit to only firing weapons only a couple times per year (or less … and perhaps not even for a qualification), but I’m guessing that they both carry personally (not in official capacity). Therefore, they are likely no more qualified than the citizens they fear to be a hindrance in a shooting situation.
    Their argument is almost like saying that only a “trained firefighter” should pick up a fire extinguisher in a stove fire because a civilian might just spray the hose and spread the fire ~ so the civvie first on site and in the scene should wait for “professional help.”
    Billy dismissively describes the teacher who wants to have a gun in his desk and able to shoot through the door at an armed attacker as just having “given reasons A through QQ” for why the teacher should NOT have a gun, but knows full well the teacher was using a “quick and dirty” example of when a defensive weapon would be useful.
    All of these guys then go on to describe basically “worst case examples of how citizens could complicate a situation, but don’t examine the many responsible and positive cases.
    Yes, GoodGuy situations can go badly. But so can GoodCop scenarios. What is the percentage of “stray” bullets shot by police versus civvies ~ I believe the GoodGuys have statistically better numbers, but I’m sure that is also skewed by the difference in the “job description requirements” between the two.

  9. These gents are all trained proessionals, which is good. Their insight and experience are valuable. That said my smeller detects a strong odour I attribute to an “only one’ syndrome. They all seem to take the stance that only the pros can “do it right”, and that everyone MUST get pro training. OK.. except that such is rather dear, and not that widely available. They also ail to take into account that “in the press” o a situation most regular people will somehow maage to handle the situation. How many innocents are shot when LE arrive? I’ce read stats on NYC cops.. they hit six times as many innocents as do civilans, send about nine times as many stray rounds as do civvies. and hit a small portion o bad guys compared to normal citizens. Put me in a
    “hot” situation I’d rather have 5 citizens on my side than ten NYPD coppers.

    A similar scenario arises with fires. The ONLY training I’ve ever had regarding fires was back whe I was in Boy Scouts a few score decades ago. But in my span here I have seen, responded, and extinguished two vehicle fires (engine bay burns started while the car was moving) and three house fires… two chimney burns and one a huge vat of frenchfry grease on the gas stove I got all out before the pros arrived,sirens screaming and lights flashing. HOW did I do that? Simpl.. I knew the three things needed to start/maintain a fire. I could easily see in each very dieren situation the fastest way to remove one of them. The fire gave up before the heavy artillary arrived. In two cases I had wrapped up, in the one car fire I even happened to have a wad o spark plug wires in my spares box and was able to replace the crispy ones with funcional used ones, long before the pros showed up I was gone. Jack be nimble Jack be quick…..

    These chaps also seem to not even cnsider sel-insruction. There are a number of excellent books out (Thanks, Mas.. I have learned much from your excellent writing) We can take what we read then go out and practice. I know one youngish man who got a bee under his bonnet to go learn long distance shooting. ound a place he could use that was safe and after burning through a few boxes of high end 7mm Rem Mag he could consistently put five rounds in a two inch circle at 800 yards.
    Yes I wish good training and coaching were readily available on a beggars budget. But that’s not the world we live in.

    Just as our forefathers fought and won the battle for our nation and way of life because they were a nation of riflemen. The Brits were poorly trained and unskilled. We trounced them at Concord in April ’75 and not ten years later loaded them aboard their ships to scuttle on home tails twixt legs. They tried again a few decades on, and we rousted them again with that “nation of riflemen 2.0. Don’t forget… “the militia” were merely all able bodied men living near each other almost all o them brining their own personal defensive weapons. Just plain folks.

  10. WORTH THE TIME. ONE TOPIC I DID NOT SEE MENTIONED WAS POST-INCIDENT
    INTERVENTION, I.E. TALKING TOO MUCH OR TOTALLY CLAMING UP. THERE IS GOOD
    ADVICE ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT THEY THOUGHT OF EACH SIDE OF THE ISSUE. I AM ALMOST COMPLETELY SELF-TAUGHT AND IT WAS AND IS QUITE DAUNTING. THE AMOUNT OF STUDY ONE MUST DO IS OVERWHELMING ON ALL LEVELS OF EACH SUB-TOPIC, AS IT SHOULD BE.
    MY REASON FOR NOT TAKING FORMAL TRAINING IS MONEY, NOT TIME. EVERY CLASS
    I HAVE EVER INVESTIGATED, REGARDLESS OF TRAINER, IS ALWAYS QUITE EXPENSIVE. IF THEY DO NOT TRAVEL AND ARE OUT OF STATE, THIS BECOMES, TO ME
    AT LEAST, AS INSURMOUNTABLE. I HAVE LEARNED QUITE A BIT, FORTUNATELY ENOUGH TO PRACTICE AVOIDANCE. THIS HAS KEPT ME FROM UNPLEASANT SITUATIONS, SO FAR. ANOTHER TOPIC WHICH I HAVE SELDOM SEEN IS THE ELDERLY PROTECTING THEMSELVES.THE ONLY INSTRUCTOR I HAVE SEEN DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC IS MAS, FOR WHICH I AM THANKFUL. GREAT VIDEO.

  11. Sorry, but I didn’t get much from this. It was some old guys sitting around telling war stories from times gone by. The “constitution PC expert”????? That’s all he cared about. I’ve never heard of this place and if these are instructors, I don’t see a student learning much at all. They just rambled about “what ifs” instead of solid rules to follow. They breezed over so much, I was shocked. W/o any recent LE experience, they have no clue. I got nothing from these guys other than being wishy-washy! Again, instructors of what exactly????? Have MAS TELL us what to do in different scenarios for a good video.

    • Robert Mozol,

      I believe these instructors were reacting to the gun buying spree which resulted from the George Floyd riots in the summer of 2020. When a whole bunch of people rush out and buy guns, we expect to see an increase in gun safety mishaps, like inadvertent discharges, and kids finding unsecured guns and the resulting tragedies. Add to this, the fact that 29 states now have Constitutional Carry, (I think the instructors were in Florida) and they are thinking, “Oh great. So some previously anti-gun Democrat can now go out and buy a gun, then lawfully carry it the next day knowing nothing, or very little, about gun safety, gun operation, self-defense techniques, and self-defense laws.”

      In other words, these instructors are afraid of stupid people. Stupid people doing stupid, unsafe things with guns will make all gun owners look bad.

      The lesson is, GET INSTRUCTION. We don’t want to empower the government to make laws to require instruction, but get instruction on your own. In a free country, there should be no seat belt laws, but wise people should choose to wear seat belts of their own free will. America should have as few laws as necessary, but those laws should be enforced vigorously.

  12. Mas , sorry to go a little off topic. What’s the make on your outside the waist snap on holster with the Colt? I have a Georgia Snap with elephant accent and I think I need to add a rough world version to it.
    Thanks for everything you do for us and those like us.

    • I’m afraid I can’t tell you, Kyle. That’s a theme photo from the general image file — not me, not my gu, not my holster. Sorry I couldn’t be more help.

  14. Great comments here as usual. This actually reminded me of a YouTube channel that i follow called Weapons Affair. They gather an impressive amount of vintage lectures, including a Jim Cirillo lecture captured on vhs during a shooting class where he discusses friendly fire shootings between plain clothes officers, off duty officers, and concealed pistol licensees. Some of the comments reminded me of it and everyone here would probably like that channel.

  15. Spree killer.

    Mass killer.

    Active killer.

    Spree shooter.

    Mass shooter.

    Lot’s of choices besides “active shooter” without the bias towards recreational shooters.

    • Agreed, Rick. Most police instructors don’t care for the term “Active Shooter” either. I’ve been told that one reason the term is still in use is to access grant funding programs for “Active Shooter Response Training.’

  16. Something about incidents involving unreasonably threatening people in subways and the like. I was in the Phoenix light rail one day when a burly passenger addressed an apparently unfamiliar fellow with a lengthy harangue, in a vicious tone, regarding being addressed at all without being asked, as in “how ya doin?” Something theatrical about public places seems to set some aggressive people off. I I eventually spoke up in a friendly, conciliatory manner because it looked to me that the addressee was about to be injuriously assaulted. The situation cooled off with my intervention and I didn’t need to use a lead-weighted sap that I might have resorted to (that I didn’t have anyway.) I do think that available public knowledge that firearms carry is legal and commonplace in Arizona does often lead thugs to control their temper and aggression in public places. Definitely lacking in weapon-free “theaters.” I also think that heavy blackjacks should have their place in reasonable “self defense” as an alternative to more likely severe shooting.

  17. Appears one issue not covered which i think should be a consideration. That issue is possible Liability to the involved citizen regardless of personal training. In all my self defense readings and classes, retired LEO and a one time state CHL instructor, avoidance and disengagement at all costs were discussed and extremely recommended before any thought to active involvement.

  18. Agree. A LEO acting in accordance with policy/training is generally covered. Although membership in whatever LE beneficial/protective group that exists is still a good idea in case someone needs to be thrown to the mob.

    Unfortunately there are a lot of folks who’ll use virtually anything to make a buck, point or get famous.

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