Time to update a couple of matters recently discussed in this space…
Shaneen Allen: We discussed here earlier the plight of Shaneen Allen, the young single mom who innocently thought her Pennsylvania carry permit would be recognized in New Jersey, and discovered the hard way it was not, leaving her now facing years away from her kids, in prison and with a “felon jacket.” We learn that a New Jersey lawmaker is introducing a bill to give judges discretion to handle such things with more justice, rather than apply Draconian mandatory penalties: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Bill-Introduced-to-Grant-Discretion-in-Gun-Cases-273243581.html#ixzz3BpwyMyjB . Thanks, by the way, to all who have contributed to her defense fund, which can be found at: http://gogetfunding.com/project/shaneen-allen-legal-defense-fund .
JPFO: Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership is now under the umbrella of the Second Amendment Foundation. The board of JPFO explains why, here: http://www.ammoland.com/2014/09/jpfo-comments-on-second-amendment-foundation-merger/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ammoland+(ammoland#axzz3Ce2hzacW .
The changeover has generated an amazing amount of vitriol. Under its late, great founder Aaron Zelman, JPFO amassed a quantity of scholarly research that is vitally important to all in the gun owners’ civil rights movement; it must be preserved, and indeed, more widely disseminated. SAF is in a position to make that happen. Several people who claim to be members clamored for JPFO to “die with dignity” rather than be turned over to one of the most effective pro-2A organizations in the country…a disturbing “If I can’t have her, nobody will” mentality.
The transition will be a significant topic of discussion at the Gun Rights Policy Conference the end of this month, and among the SAF Board which will meet during the same time frame. As a member of the SAF Board of Trustees, I should have more information for you then.
As gun owners, we shouldn’t be fighting against each other.. If JPFO was able to continue on its own, it would have.
Growing another organization by absorbing it, rather than letting it die, may not make everyone happy, but it is a good thing. I say we support it, because in the end, we’re all in this gun fight together.
As gun owners, we shouldn’t be fighting against each other.. If JPFO was able to continue on its own, it would have.
Growing another organization by absorbing it, rather than letting it die, may not make everyone happy, but it is a good thing. I say we support it, because in the end, we’re all in this gun fight together.
Shaneen Allen, in a normal and sane world would be facing penalties similar to a high end parking ticket.
Our world is not near normal or sane, bless her I hope justice prevails.
Shaneen Allen, in a normal and sane world would be facing penalties similar to a high end parking ticket.
Our world is not near normal or sane, bless her I hope justice prevails.
Shaneen Allen, in a normal and sane world would be facing penalties similar to a high end parking ticket.
Our world is not near normal or sane, bless her I hope justice prevails.
Shaneen Allen, in a normal and sane world would be facing penalties similar to a high end parking ticket.
Our world is not near normal or sane, bless her I hope justice prevails.
The more information that can be disseminated to all is the best way to convince the public and help the law makers choose the best legislation.
The more information that can be disseminated to all is the best way to convince the public and help the law makers choose the best legislation.
It is important to realize that the proposed discretion that the bill would give judges in NJ would only apply to out of state carry permit holders. NJ citizens can’t obtain carry permits and would still be subject to unreasonably harsh mandatory sentences just for carrying firearms to protect themselves. That just isn’t right.
It is important to realize that the proposed discretion that the bill would give judges in NJ would only apply to out of state carry permit holders. NJ citizens can’t obtain carry permits and would still be subject to unreasonably harsh mandatory sentences just for carrying firearms to protect themselves. That just isn’t right.
It is important to realize that the proposed discretion that the bill would give judges in NJ would only apply to out of state carry permit holders. NJ citizens can’t obtain carry permits and would still be subject to unreasonably harsh mandatory sentences just for carrying firearms to protect themselves. That just isn’t right.
It is important to realize that the proposed discretion that the bill would give judges in NJ would only apply to out of state carry permit holders. NJ citizens can’t obtain carry permits and would still be subject to unreasonably harsh mandatory sentences just for carrying firearms to protect themselves. That just isn’t right.
To echo Dennis Hayward’s comments, whoever is not against us is for us. Letting the JPFO die would be like letting a library of pro-SA documents burn down, wasting all the accumulated years of knowledge and effort that promoted SA issues.
To echo Dennis Hayward’s comments, whoever is not against us is for us. Letting the JPFO die would be like letting a library of pro-SA documents burn down, wasting all the accumulated years of knowledge and effort that promoted SA issues.
Mas,
I have nothing but compassion for Ms. Allen. The law does seem unusually harsh. But, you have me confused. Between ypolicyMag 40 class as well as your writings, you have continually impressed the need for people not to carry illegally and to know the law when traveling. If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? Maybe she didn’t know about handgunlaw.us?
As for the tiff between the SAF and JPFO, I donot know the players and am not really informed as to their good works and policies. I do know that egos and internal politics have been the demise of many an organization. I’ll have to defer to your good judgement on this topic. Perhaps you can clue me in at the GRPC in a few weeks?
Mas,
I have nothing but compassion for Ms. Allen. The law does seem unusually harsh. But, you have me confused. Between ypolicyMag 40 class as well as your writings, you have continually impressed the need for people not to carry illegally and to know the law when traveling. If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? Maybe she didn’t know about handgunlaw.us?
As for the tiff between the SAF and JPFO, I donot know the players and am not really informed as to their good works and policies. I do know that egos and internal politics have been the demise of many an organization. I’ll have to defer to your good judgement on this topic. Perhaps you can clue me in at the GRPC in a few weeks?
Mas,
I have nothing but compassion for Ms. Allen. The law does seem unusually harsh. But, you have me confused. Between ypolicyMag 40 class as well as your writings, you have continually impressed the need for people not to carry illegally and to know the law when traveling. If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? Maybe she didn’t know about handgunlaw.us?
As for the tiff between the SAF and JPFO, I donot know the players and am not really informed as to their good works and policies. I do know that egos and internal politics have been the demise of many an organization. I’ll have to defer to your good judgement on this topic. Perhaps you can clue me in at the GRPC in a few weeks?
Mas,
I have nothing but compassion for Ms. Allen. The law does seem unusually harsh. But, you have me confused. Between ypolicyMag 40 class as well as your writings, you have continually impressed the need for people not to carry illegally and to know the law when traveling. If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? Maybe she didn’t know about handgunlaw.us?
As for the tiff between the SAF and JPFO, I donot know the players and am not really informed as to their good works and policies. I do know that egos and internal politics have been the demise of many an organization. I’ll have to defer to your good judgement on this topic. Perhaps you can clue me in at the GRPC in a few weeks?
Mas,
I have nothing but compassion for Ms. Allen. The law does seem unusually harsh. But, you have me confused. Between ypolicyMag 40 class as well as your writings, you have continually impressed the need for people not to carry illegally and to know the law when traveling. If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? Maybe she didn’t know about handgunlaw.us?
As for the tiff between the SAF and JPFO, I donot know the players and am not really informed as to their good works and policies. I do know that egos and internal politics have been the demise of many an organization. I’ll have to defer to your good judgement on this topic. Perhaps you can clue me in at the GRPC in a few weeks?
Randy, I’m looking forward to seeing you at GRPC. Ms. Shaneen’s situation is one reason I have so long been a proponent of national reciprocity.
JeffG, I hear you. NJ is sorely in need of the sort of reform legislation that institutes “shall issue” carry.
Randy, I’m looking forward to seeing you at GRPC. Ms. Shaneen’s situation is one reason I have so long been a proponent of national reciprocity.
JeffG, I hear you. NJ is sorely in need of the sort of reform legislation that institutes “shall issue” carry.
Randy, I’m looking forward to seeing you at GRPC. Ms. Shaneen’s situation is one reason I have so long been a proponent of national reciprocity.
JeffG, I hear you. NJ is sorely in need of the sort of reform legislation that institutes “shall issue” carry.
The press is making a big issue of how the issue of Ray Rice is being handled by the NFL. The bigger issue is how the case of Ms. Allen is being handled by the New Jersey justice system.
On the one hand a non violent offender makes a mistake, tells the police and is denied the diversion program offered by the same prosecutor to Ray Rice.
The NFL rules only apply to players, NJ rules apply to the public.
The press is making a big issue of how the issue of Ray Rice is being handled by the NFL. The bigger issue is how the case of Ms. Allen is being handled by the New Jersey justice system.
On the one hand a non violent offender makes a mistake, tells the police and is denied the diversion program offered by the same prosecutor to Ray Rice.
The NFL rules only apply to players, NJ rules apply to the public.
Mas, you didn’t answer Randy’s question: “If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? ”
Well? Would you have arrested her?
Mas, you didn’t answer Randy’s question: “If you had been the leo that stopped her would you have done the same thing that the officer did or would you have informed her of her infraction and made her take it off and put it in the trunk? ”
Well? Would you have arrested her?
It’s a sad commentary on the effect of liberal theology in states such as New Jersey when a woman such as Ms. Shaneen, who by all accounts has tried to lead a good and decent, law abiding life, is treated similarly to entering a third world country with similar draconian laws totally alien to our enunciated inalienable rights.
Marine Sgt. Tahmoorissi probably stands a better chance of justice in Mexican courts than Ms. Shaneen does in the liberal cess-pool of New Jersey.
I’ve watched as some folks espouse certain states seceding from the union. Maybe some should be kicked out for no longer honoring the constitution all states are supposed to agree to uphold.
It’s a sad commentary on the effect of liberal theology in states such as New Jersey when a woman such as Ms. Shaneen, who by all accounts has tried to lead a good and decent, law abiding life, is treated similarly to entering a third world country with similar draconian laws totally alien to our enunciated inalienable rights.
Marine Sgt. Tahmoorissi probably stands a better chance of justice in Mexican courts than Ms. Shaneen does in the liberal cess-pool of New Jersey.
I’ve watched as some folks espouse certain states seceding from the union. Maybe some should be kicked out for no longer honoring the constitution all states are supposed to agree to uphold.
It’s a sad commentary on the effect of liberal theology in states such as New Jersey when a woman such as Ms. Shaneen, who by all accounts has tried to lead a good and decent, law abiding life, is treated similarly to entering a third world country with similar draconian laws totally alien to our enunciated inalienable rights.
Marine Sgt. Tahmoorissi probably stands a better chance of justice in Mexican courts than Ms. Shaneen does in the liberal cess-pool of New Jersey.
I’ve watched as some folks espouse certain states seceding from the union. Maybe some should be kicked out for no longer honoring the constitution all states are supposed to agree to uphold.
Randy and Cal, I personally would have had no problem at all, since my state recognizes her permit.
Randy and Cal, I personally would have had no problem at all, since my state recognizes her permit.
Randy/Cal,
Officer discretion can be a double edged sword. Discretion is usually used when a fairly minor infraction took place, common sense or the officer’s perception of whether there was an intent on the part of the subject to commit a violation kicks in, and the decision is made to let it slide.
In today’s sue happy environment, the officer runs the risk of Ms. Shaheen not being who she appeared to be, and continuing on her way to commit some heinous crime with his speeding citation in her purse, along with the weapon he had allowed her to keep.
Back in the days before concealed carry was wide spread and pretty well confined to off duty law enforcement, I used discretion on many occasions when I would encounter traffic violators who had handguns in their vehicles. I had one iron-clad rule I followed. If I let them slide on the UCW (unlawful carrying of weapon), I also let them slide on the traffic violation so there would be no record of the stop that might lead back to me. Yes, the officer is taking a chance civilly when he exercises such discretion.
Sometimes discretion requires that the officer be discrete. Humor intended.
Randy/Cal,
Officer discretion can be a double edged sword. Discretion is usually used when a fairly minor infraction took place, common sense or the officer’s perception of whether there was an intent on the part of the subject to commit a violation kicks in, and the decision is made to let it slide.
In today’s sue happy environment, the officer runs the risk of Ms. Shaheen not being who she appeared to be, and continuing on her way to commit some heinous crime with his speeding citation in her purse, along with the weapon he had allowed her to keep.
Back in the days before concealed carry was wide spread and pretty well confined to off duty law enforcement, I used discretion on many occasions when I would encounter traffic violators who had handguns in their vehicles. I had one iron-clad rule I followed. If I let them slide on the UCW (unlawful carrying of weapon), I also let them slide on the traffic violation so there would be no record of the stop that might lead back to me. Yes, the officer is taking a chance civilly when he exercises such discretion.
Sometimes discretion requires that the officer be discrete. Humor intended.
I try to come up with ideas to punish tyrants who oppress citizens with unjust laws. By “tyrants” I mean police officers and prosecutors and judges who enforce unconstitutional laws. I would like them to lose their jobs. I guess that won’t work when government teachers can’t lose their jobs.
Maybe I could picket outside their homes for a day or a weekend. They would probably call the police and charge me with “disturbing the peace” or maybe not. Maybe that would be legal. Fact is, I don’t really know how to find out where people live.
Another idea is to make a sign which reads, “This is a gun-free home” and place it on their property. But, I guess I would be trespassing if I walked too far onto their property.
No wonder the bad guys always win. Good guys don’t have enough power, because people are afraid we would abuse it.
Beam me up, Scotty.
I try to come up with ideas to punish tyrants who oppress citizens with unjust laws. By “tyrants” I mean police officers and prosecutors and judges who enforce unconstitutional laws. I would like them to lose their jobs. I guess that won’t work when government teachers can’t lose their jobs.
Maybe I could picket outside their homes for a day or a weekend. They would probably call the police and charge me with “disturbing the peace” or maybe not. Maybe that would be legal. Fact is, I don’t really know how to find out where people live.
Another idea is to make a sign which reads, “This is a gun-free home” and place it on their property. But, I guess I would be trespassing if I walked too far onto their property.
No wonder the bad guys always win. Good guys don’t have enough power, because people are afraid we would abuse it.
Beam me up, Scotty.
I try to come up with ideas to punish tyrants who oppress citizens with unjust laws. By “tyrants” I mean police officers and prosecutors and judges who enforce unconstitutional laws. I would like them to lose their jobs. I guess that won’t work when government teachers can’t lose their jobs.
Maybe I could picket outside their homes for a day or a weekend. They would probably call the police and charge me with “disturbing the peace” or maybe not. Maybe that would be legal. Fact is, I don’t really know how to find out where people live.
Another idea is to make a sign which reads, “This is a gun-free home” and place it on their property. But, I guess I would be trespassing if I walked too far onto their property.
No wonder the bad guys always win. Good guys don’t have enough power, because people are afraid we would abuse it.
Beam me up, Scotty.
P.S. –Yes, I know the correct word usage would be discreet.
P.S. –Yes, I know the correct word usage would be discreet.
P.S. –Yes, I know the correct word usage would be discreet.
Mas, you wrote: “Randy and Cal, I personally would have had no problem at all, since my state recognizes her permit.”
Nice try , but you are obviously being evasive and still didn’t answer the crux of the question. Let’s be more specific.
If you were the New Jersey LEO in that same situation, i.e. pulled over a woman from PA who had a PA permit, who had a weapon with her, would you have arrested her?
Mas, you wrote: “Randy and Cal, I personally would have had no problem at all, since my state recognizes her permit.”
Nice try , but you are obviously being evasive and still didn’t answer the crux of the question. Let’s be more specific.
If you were the New Jersey LEO in that same situation, i.e. pulled over a woman from PA who had a PA permit, who had a weapon with her, would you have arrested her?
Dennis, thank you for your comments. I understand that every situation is different, and that the LEO must at times make a judgement call based on the totality of the circumstances, which you, to your credit, have done.
Yet, for some reason, your qualifying remark of “Back in the days . . .” troubles me. May I ask of you the same question? To whit, if you were the New Jersey LEO in that same situation, i.e. pulled over a woman from PA who had a PA permit, who had a weapon with her, would you have arrested her?
Dennis, thank you for your comments. I understand that every situation is different, and that the LEO must at times make a judgement call based on the totality of the circumstances, which you, to your credit, have done.
Yet, for some reason, your qualifying remark of “Back in the days . . .” troubles me. May I ask of you the same question? To whit, if you were the New Jersey LEO in that same situation, i.e. pulled over a woman from PA who had a PA permit, who had a weapon with her, would you have arrested her?
Dennis, thank you for your comments. I understand that every situation is different, and that the LEO must at times make a judgement call based on the totality of the circumstances, which you, to your credit, have done.
Yet, for some reason, your qualifying remark of “Back in the days . . .” troubles me. May I ask of you the same question? To whit, if you were the New Jersey LEO in that same situation, i.e. pulled over a woman from PA who had a PA permit, who had a weapon with her, would you have arrested her?
Dennis, thank you for your comments. I understand that every situation is different, and that the LEO must at times make a judgement call based on the totality of the circumstances, which you, to your credit, have done.
Yet, for some reason, your qualifying remark of “Back in the days . . .” troubles me. May I ask of you the same question? To whit, if you were the New Jersey LEO in that same situation, i.e. pulled over a woman from PA who had a PA permit, who had a weapon with her, would you have arrested her?
Once again, Ayoob lies and creates evidence from thin air when it suits him. In his pathetic apology for the anal rape and torture of man, Ayoob conjured up a “duty of care” (to rape a man!) with zero evidence.
Now he lies that members urged JPFO to die rather than accept the SAF takeover. Bullshit. I repeat: bullshit.
There were several parties who attempted to contact the JPFO board. They had alternatives and funding to back up their plans. The tiny August shortfall (roughly $1000) was easily covered; they people had 5-figure sums ready and waiting to be put to use.
Ayoob dismisses these attempts at constructive engagement as “vitriol,” and any alternative to a takeover by the organization he represents as “clamored for JPFO to “die with dignity.”
Like the anal rape case, Ayoob creates a new reason that had never before been mentioned. Now his self-interested position as an SAF board member is to preserve the JPFO literature.
The more likely outcome is that Gottlieb and his lackeys will suppress and attempt to shove the more strident JPFO work down the memory hole. It’s too uncompromising, too principled, too harsh.
That attempt will fail. Neither Gottlieb or his lackey Ayoob can understand what has happened, and what will happen. The materials have already been preserved, by the people SAF and Ayoob love to hate.
Watch for SAF attempts to suppress them via claims of copyright infringement. If there was any merit to Ayoob’s testilying, SAF would welcome all attempts to publicsize Zelman’s legacy. But since the truth is that the only prize is the JPFO mail lists, more grists for the for-profit Gottlieb mass mailing machine, that will never happen.
Once again, Ayoob lies and creates evidence from thin air when it suits him. In his pathetic apology for the anal rape and torture of man, Ayoob conjured up a “duty of care” (to rape a man!) with zero evidence.
Now he lies that members urged JPFO to die rather than accept the SAF takeover. Bullshit. I repeat: bullshit.
There were several parties who attempted to contact the JPFO board. They had alternatives and funding to back up their plans. The tiny August shortfall (roughly $1000) was easily covered; they people had 5-figure sums ready and waiting to be put to use.
Ayoob dismisses these attempts at constructive engagement as “vitriol,” and any alternative to a takeover by the organization he represents as “clamored for JPFO to “die with dignity.”
Like the anal rape case, Ayoob creates a new reason that had never before been mentioned. Now his self-interested position as an SAF board member is to preserve the JPFO literature.
The more likely outcome is that Gottlieb and his lackeys will suppress and attempt to shove the more strident JPFO work down the memory hole. It’s too uncompromising, too principled, too harsh.
That attempt will fail. Neither Gottlieb or his lackey Ayoob can understand what has happened, and what will happen. The materials have already been preserved, by the people SAF and Ayoob love to hate.
Watch for SAF attempts to suppress them via claims of copyright infringement. If there was any merit to Ayoob’s testilying, SAF would welcome all attempts to publicsize Zelman’s legacy. But since the truth is that the only prize is the JPFO mail lists, more grists for the for-profit Gottlieb mass mailing machine, that will never happen.
Cal,
Again I’ll have to use the qualifier “back in the day”. –Back in the day there was a certain amount of privacy, or “one on one” if you will, in an officer and citizen contact, giving the officer more flexibility. In today’s electronic wonderland, most transactions conducted, at least by the larger departments, are audio/video recorded and kept in archive for a set period of time, subject to review. These recordings are accessible only by supervisors, in other words they can’t be edited by the officer. If the officer’s agency is hard core on violations such as this, he may well be subjecting himself to disciplinary action if he fails to enforce this law.
In answer to the question of “would I have arrested her?” Hell no!, but then again, I was well known among my peers for refusing to enforce stupid laws, or what I called “feel good laws” that had nothing to do with protecting the public, but were passed by politicians to placate small but vocal groups. I would hope that most officers are still exercising good judgement in cases such as this.
Truthfully, even though I’m covered by LEOSA, I refuse to go to the northeastern states because of the seemingly high number of incidents of poor judgement by some officers in that region.
In closing, if it will make you feel any better, the New Jersey Turnpike troopers have a pretty poor reputation among law enforcement officers from around the country who have been unlucky enough to have been stopped for speeding there. I’ll leave it at that.
Cal,
Again I’ll have to use the qualifier “back in the day”. –Back in the day there was a certain amount of privacy, or “one on one” if you will, in an officer and citizen contact, giving the officer more flexibility. In today’s electronic wonderland, most transactions conducted, at least by the larger departments, are audio/video recorded and kept in archive for a set period of time, subject to review. These recordings are accessible only by supervisors, in other words they can’t be edited by the officer. If the officer’s agency is hard core on violations such as this, he may well be subjecting himself to disciplinary action if he fails to enforce this law.
In answer to the question of “would I have arrested her?” Hell no!, but then again, I was well known among my peers for refusing to enforce stupid laws, or what I called “feel good laws” that had nothing to do with protecting the public, but were passed by politicians to placate small but vocal groups. I would hope that most officers are still exercising good judgement in cases such as this.
Truthfully, even though I’m covered by LEOSA, I refuse to go to the northeastern states because of the seemingly high number of incidents of poor judgement by some officers in that region.
In closing, if it will make you feel any better, the New Jersey Turnpike troopers have a pretty poor reputation among law enforcement officers from around the country who have been unlucky enough to have been stopped for speeding there. I’ll leave it at that.
Cal,
Again I’ll have to use the qualifier “back in the day”. –Back in the day there was a certain amount of privacy, or “one on one” if you will, in an officer and citizen contact, giving the officer more flexibility. In today’s electronic wonderland, most transactions conducted, at least by the larger departments, are audio/video recorded and kept in archive for a set period of time, subject to review. These recordings are accessible only by supervisors, in other words they can’t be edited by the officer. If the officer’s agency is hard core on violations such as this, he may well be subjecting himself to disciplinary action if he fails to enforce this law.
In answer to the question of “would I have arrested her?” Hell no!, but then again, I was well known among my peers for refusing to enforce stupid laws, or what I called “feel good laws” that had nothing to do with protecting the public, but were passed by politicians to placate small but vocal groups. I would hope that most officers are still exercising good judgement in cases such as this.
Truthfully, even though I’m covered by LEOSA, I refuse to go to the northeastern states because of the seemingly high number of incidents of poor judgement by some officers in that region.
In closing, if it will make you feel any better, the New Jersey Turnpike troopers have a pretty poor reputation among law enforcement officers from around the country who have been unlucky enough to have been stopped for speeding there. I’ll leave it at that.
Comments are closed.