Three weeks ago today, on Sunday June 8, I was in the fourth day of a MAG-40 class in Kankakee, Illinois. Among other topics of the day, I warned the students that one of the dangers of armed intervention was “tailgunners,” criminal accomplices who cover their “point man” while pretending to be shoppers, and will assassinate anyone who interferes with their fellow thugs. That same day, some 1800 miles away, that scenario was acted out with tragic results.

A vicious psycho couple walked into a pizza joint where two Las Vegas Metro officers were taking a meal break, and ambushed and murdered them. Taking the slain officers’ pistols and spare ammo, they made their way to a nearby WalMart. The male of the pair fired a shot into the ceiling and ordered everyone out. One armed citizen, Joseph Wilcox, drew his own Glock and moved toward the gunman. The tailgunner, the gunman’s wife, sidled up beside Wilcox and shot him dead. The two nutcases then shot it out with police, and died.

I’ve waited this long to address it because it takes that long for the facts to shake out. Early reports said one of the first two officers returned fire and wounded one of the perps; turns out that wasn’t true. Early reports said the armed citizen was female, and had wounded one of the cop-killers; turns out, no and no. First reports said the female psycho killed her husband and then herself; later reports say a police bullet killed him and she didn’t shoot him at all, though she did put a slug in her own head after being anchored by a police bullet in the final gunfight.

No one with a three-digit IQ has blamed officers Alyn Beck and Igor Soldo for their own deaths: they were bushwhacked suddenly and without discernible warning. Not so the private citizen, Joseph Wilcox. An amazing number of people on the Internet accused him of “getting himself killed,” with one idiot even suggesting that he died while “playing Barney Fife.” An interesting parallel was seen on two threads over at www.glocktalk.com. In the “Carry Issues” section, quite a few people thought Wilcox had overstepped his bounds. They took the position that the gun they carried was only to protect themselves and their families, not the public. Interestingly enough, in the “Cop Talk” section of the same forum, police officers felt he had done the right thing and agreed with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, who publicly proclaimed Wilcox to have died a hero and probably saved multiple innocent lives by interrupting the plans of the two whacked-out murderers.

Readers…I’d be very much interested in hearing YOUR take on this.

1 COMMENT

  1. My own take on this?

    While I certainly do not relish the thought of my own mortality and possible death at the hands of a psychotic thug (male or female), I sure do hope that I would have the courage displayed by Mr. Joseph Wilcox, whether or not my efforts proved successful.

  3. I have put my life on the line for people I did not know, first while serving this country in our military (Desert Storm Veteran) and then later as a county deputy sheriff corrections officer. I would gladly lay down my life in the defense of another. I am the father of five and pray that someone would defend one of my children if I was not there to do so myself.

    How’s the song go?

    “I don’t want to die for you but if dying is asked of me I will bear that cross with honor because freedom don’t come free.”

    Has anyone been paying attention to the media the last two plus years? How many crazies have killed innocents because one person wasn’t there to stop them? Mr. Wilcox was that one person and he tried to stop another innocent from dying. I wonder if any of these talking heads who have called Mr. Wilcox a fool, or worse, would be saying the same thing if one of their loved ones were killed after he walked out of the Wal-Mart because it wasn’t his duty or responsibility to defend an innocent that didn’t matter to him. I think they would be calling him a coward and spouting off that concealed carry doesn’t work because a CC person failed to act and innocents died.

    Mr. Wilcox may not have acted perfectly, but he acted. That damn well makes him a hero.

  4. Mas, I myself see this man as a HERO. The Bible says no greater love is there than this to lay down you life for a friend. I am not saying that the Bible says you should die just to lay down your life. It does not say that any where in The Bible but it does say we have the right to defend ourselves and love ones and anyone who needs our help. The only thing that I would like to know is what the level of training this man had? The old saying is when the SHTF you will fall back to the level of you training. I know that everyone cannot afford thousands of dollars for training but if it will save your life it worth every penny. I try to put away money for training but these days its very hard so I read and watch and process everything I can. I don’t go to the internet ninjas but look at the people who have written books and watch videos of the guys who have been there and done that and have the Tshirts. All the guys on forums can arm chair quarter back all they want but I wonder how many of them sat down and really thought out what this man did? Did he have love ones in the store? People today are way to quick to judge the actions of others before they even know the facts or conditions of why this man acted. I have often wondered what I would do in just such a situation knowing that there are so many people in the store that need help and need it then. When seconds matter police are only minutes away. I am not knocking police in any way they can not be everywhere at the same time. Was there another Conceal Carrier there that could have watched his and the man that died six? I don’t know but if I am ever in this situation or anything like it my head is on a swivel and I ain’t going to run into the situation like my butt is on fire and my head is catching. Inform us on what you would have done if you were there? If my family is in the store they are going to be the first I would want to make it out alive so I would do whatever it took to make that happen. My wife and daughter are employed at Walmart and if I was not there I would want someone to put a bullet in the brain of the bad guys, and everyone who has love ones who work in the public would want the same if there love ones were put into a situation like this. You have again given us valuable info to put into our brains which is the greatest weapon anyone has. Thanks!

  5. As a man, a Christian, I believe I have the responsibility to protect my family, the innocent, and those weaker than I, from danger when it arises. I am not a police officer, and I do not claim those responsibilities, but as a citizen, I believe I have a responsibility to protect those who cannot protect themselves from serious, eminent danger. I will act when necessary to fulfill those obligations, even if that puts me in some level of jeopardy. I have in the past (subduing a drunk driver trying to flee an accident scene) and, God forbid that it would ever come to this, I would do as Mr. Wilcox did, and try to protect the innocents around him from a maniac brandishing and threatening others with a weapon. RIP, Mr. Wilcox. Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for a friend.

  6. Joseph Wilcox deserves our thanks and admiration for stepping forward. These days of the helicopter mom-personal safety priority in our culture, it is no longer “appropriate” to be a decent person and engage in a physical confrontation. He is a rare example of doing the right thing.

  7. I thought this one through long ago. In most circumstances, I’d fade to the back of the crowd and away. My CHCL doesn’t grant me any police-like powers, nor do I have the obligation to use it to defend others who either didn’t bring guns of their own or made life decisions that keep them from doing so.

    My primary obligation is to *my* family; setting myself up for bankruptcy and losing our home to mount a legal defense after intervening for some strangers is not a responsible action.

    However… I’m not going to second-guess Mr. Wilcox’ action. I’m sure he had his own priorities. I wasn’t there, and I think he probably did what he thought was best at the time. Anyone who wants to call him a hero… when they started pinning the word on athletes it lost much of the meaning it used to have, but I’d say the man earned it the hard way.

  8. I have taken a long and stumbling path on this ideology, as many have. I used to think it was right to get involved no matter what. I no longer feel compelled to intervene indiscriminately, mostly because we can almost never truly know all the details of an event and be sure we are coming righteously and legally to aid. I no longer feel obliged to automatically get involved in others situations. There are decisions folks make which are the root cause of their malady and often justify the outcomes that befall them, and other times it’s a sheer matter of wrong place-wrong time that none of us can see coming. In the former, if I can decipher someone has thoughtlessly put themselves in jeopardy, it’s not likely I’ll risk life or limb to facilitate their justification unless it directly effects me or my loved ones. This is my default mode. In the latter, I’ll fight to the death, because no one deserves to meet their end because they needed a widget at Walmart on a given day. As members of society, I believe we need to apply our tools and talents wisely so as not to have our considerable resources for good squandered. We proclaim our intentions on that sole basis, let us act in the same stead. Am I saying some folks get exactly what they deserve? You damn betcha’! Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Still true.

  9. I believe this was an unusual situation – meaning the perps were no less than mad dogs, totally out of control, and negotiation or methods other than deadly force were negated with the initial ambush.
    A few processes I consider:
    1) Evaluate before jumping into the fray, if time and circumstances permit
    2) Act immediately if a life is immediately threatened
    3) Back out if we can and let authorities handle the situation
    4) Deadly Force means just that, Shoot to Kill Them Dead

    Personally, I am saddened when any officer is killed, and especially this way. I also feel sad for a man who tried and didn’t win.

  10. The facts:

    1. Wilcox overstepped his bounds as a legally armed private citizen.
    2. Given the nature of the incident, Wilcox was morally correct in doing so.
    3. Wilcox acted in an heroic manner.
    4. Wilcox was killed before significantly impacting the situation.
    5. Wilcox failed in his mission.

    Analysis:

    1. A single Good Guy (GG), citizen or police, responding to criminal shooter is at a definite yet unknown disadvantage.
    2. You may never know about a tailgunner (TG) or other hidden shooter until you act.
    3. Learn to ID TGs. Gabe Suarez has addressed this. Someone who is hypervigilant instead of fleeing or panicking.
    4. IDing a TG means your tactics change completely. You can’t engage the TG until they surface; you will have extreme difficulty successfully engaging the primary. You either will receive fire or be ambushed. It may be best to confront the primary from his 12 which increases your risk.
    5. The desire to confront the primary immediately, or at a time and place of your design, may not be possible.
    6. Any action taken by the GG must be decisive and fluid, and followed up immediately by further defensive tactics.

  11. Life is like a game of chess.

    What if Mr. Wilcox was a police officer on or off duty, uniformed or not? Or maybe a Marine? A Navy SEAL? Might his training have saved him or would he/she have met the same fate? We know it happens to police and military. Training is a factor but just being unlucky can be a b—-h.

    What of the personal responsibility issue as Michael Says: June 29th, 2014
    “I personally believe that it is among the responsibilities of all citizens to contribute …”
    Do we stand by and watch (or turn and run …)?

    A lot of great comments, observations and analysis here.

    Condition red to soon? Maybe. Not an imminent threat because not shooting so let’s wait and … get dead? Maybe.
    Obligations? to whom? Me, may family? My neighbors? Friends? Society?
    Level of training? Maybe. The best fall occasionally. And we all know the concept of innate talent or skill or of just plain being lucky.

    llinois Bob Says: June 30th, 2014 (Thank you for your service Bob)
    “How many crazies have killed innocents because one person wasn’t there to stop them?” Maybe one life was saved by Mr Wilcox and that life will be there to save many others in the future. Many of us are familiar with Paul Harvey’s “The Rest Of The Story.” Kinda make some believe in God. (And evil).

    WT Says: June 30th, 2014
    “Cowards die a thousand deaths; the brave, only one.” Not very many people would be willing to run towards gunfire.”
    By a twist of fate who becomes a police officer? Maybe Mr. Wilcox was a better officer that many in uniform?

    I would like to think I would get involved in some (hopefully) positive way (as have in the past). I would like to think a positive result would ensue (prevention of morbidity or mortality).

    I cannot control the thoughts or actions of others by any means other than my actions or my words (well, maybe prayer …). Nor can I ultimately control the future. I can, however, try to influence others and the future.

    Jack Says: 
June 29th, 2014
    “I feel he was a genuinely good citizen who thought he could help and was unaware what he was dealing with.”
    Jack having made some excellent observations and comment: I would suggest that it is impossible to always know regardless of training and experience. And that he did help if only by example of being at least partially prepared and taking action. And sharing his ultimate life experience so that we may learn or have a knowledge renewed.

    Ultimately, like a chess master in a game of chess, chaos is a worthy adversary. The possibilities are limitless. I learned decades ago when everyone thought a friend ad long lost a chess game and there was no hope, a simple pawn moved on space and “checkmate” shocking everyone but the winner.

    Mas, like Tom Eichling Says: June 29th, 2014
    Still too many variables.
    And I could go on for days.

    Simply put, there are to many variables and unknowns in life. No amount of preparation can deal with every possible permutation of the endless possibilities. That said, Train, prepare, learn, share, think. Short of his loss of life, Mr Wilcox acted properly and was adequately prepared. He was just unlucky (or lucky if you count God’s calling him to eternal peace).

    Life is possibilities. Good luck and be safe. If not, be what you can. Be what you must.

    I quote from above these three and holding at just three with great difficulty:

    Steven Schveighoffer Says: 
June 29th, 2014 

    What exactly constitutes the “right” and “wrong” choices here?
It is easy to say looking back at the situation, that Wilcox paid for his actions with his life, and say he made the wrong choice. But that’s only with hindsight. The risk of confronting a shooter is always the possibility of ultimately losing the battle. Was it worth the risk? It all depends on your priorities. Would I have done the same thing? Maybe, maybe not. We do not know the body language of the shooter, we don’t know what he said exactly, or how he said it. We don’t know whether he seemed true to his word that he would let people out without harming anyone. If Wilcox had not confronted, would the outcome be the same or worse? If they had not been sidetracked by Wilcox, would they have had time to enact some other plan they had?
I would consider Wilcox’s actions heroic. It takes guts to confront someone in the defense of innocents, and I don’t think anyone should be faulted for that. We have to remember that the good guy doesn’t always win, unlike in the movies. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t attempt to do good. I don’t want to sound uncaring, but what we can say definitively is that Wilcox did what he was allowed to and supposed to do, and it is why we all carry, for that opportunity to prevent evil from dictating our actions. Other than that, it’s up to him and God as to whether his actions were the right choice. I hope his family can find peace after it.

    the Rev Says: June 30th, 2014
    “I therefore believe Mr. Wilcox acted correctly, with a rare resolve & courage, may he rest in God’s Grace.”

    DLHammer Says: June 30th, 2014
    “RIP, Mr. Wilcox. Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for a friend.”

  12. The US Army taught me back in 1968 not to be a “John Wayne” when I used a grenade in a drill to take out an enemy machine gun but was judged killed by the retrun ‘fire’ before the grenade ‘exploded’. I remembered that when in combat for real in Vietnam a few years later. Still went forward to the sound of the guns but more aware of potential threats too. Pity we can’t check with the now dead hero Mr. Wilcox and ask the question: “Knowing the outcome, what would you have done differently?” Might be nice to ask his surviving family and friends too if they think he had other options. Massad reminded me in an LFI class about ‘tail-gunners’ and ‘outriders’ 15 years ago. It was excellent advice then and now. On patrol with sheriff’s deputies I wear SBA and plates. If I had been Mr. Wilcox all all I was wearing was my ‘t-shirt level body-armor’, I like to think I still would have moved toward any available cover before exposing myself further to the criminal’s lethal threat or any potential accomplice(s). But I wasn’t there, don’t know what options in hindsight he might have had available. I salute his memory for trying to protect innocent parties and likely saving the lives of others by his unanticipated sacrifice. He had “the will” but life is not fair and as we all know, “shit happens”… to LEO’s and soldiers too…:-(

  13. I also consider Wilcox a hero. There was a clearly-defined, unambiguous criminal actor and in an exercise of free will he acted to do what he could to protect innocent life. We can play what-if all day, but looking at only what did, in fact, happen, he was a hero.

  15. One thing Mr. Wilcox has to be remembered for. When the gunfight showed up, he had a gun to bring to it.

  16. While Mr. Wilcox’s actions were laudable, and anyone who wasn’t there can’t say what they would do in a similar situation, it is likely he didn’t have the training and experience to engage multiple assailants (he probably didn’t know there were more than one) in a shootout. What Mr. Wilcox did do is cause the shooters to realize they weren’t going to be able to proceed uninhibited with their shooting spree and possibly gained a pause and a few more moments for the police to arrive. This may or may not have saved some lives. Was this worth his life? That is not knowable.
    What is fact though is that many shooters, when confronted by armed resistance or even the sound of approaching sirens, will turn the gun on themselves. Every situation is different and there is no way to predict the outcome. You just study the facts (Mr. Ayoob is wise in allowing all the smoke to clear away before broaching this scenario) and try to learn.

    Legendary SEAL sniper Chris Kyle (who was later murdered) engaged two would be carjackers who were pointing pistols at him as he was fueling his pickup and double tapped both of them (with his 1911…word up Glock fans) before they could get off a shot. That is one extreme scenario, Mr. Wilcox is the other. One man had about as much chill, ability and confidence as you can possibly get, the other was carrying only his pistol and a desire to do the right thing.

    Most of us are nearer Mr. Wilcox than Chris Kyle and should proceed accordingly.

  17. After I clicked “Submit” I was reminded of this: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

    Mr. Wilcox is in heaven among other heroes.

  18. I think that those who think that they just wanted to clear the store are putting too much faith in the perpetrator. People do not rob the local megastore to get a few bucks for their next dose of meth. People rob gas stations, or maybe a branch bank. Who sets out to rob the busiest store in town with the most witnesses, with silent alarms, video everywhere, and frequent drops of cash into the safe? Criminals who think that is a good idea have serious issues, criminals who are looking for a fight, criminals who could be itching for slaughter, criminals who are escalating until they will die–and know it. That being the case, it would not be unreasonable for the CCW holder to have viewed the criminal much differently than a mass killer off his meds. He acted accordingly, he rolled the dice and it came out worse than it should have for him, but he had the guts to roll the dice.

    It is a lesson to those who carry, and it also a lesson to wannabe Bonnie and Clyde teams that they may not have as easy a time as they think.

  19. Here I go playing what-if, but I thought of kind of an interesting one. I know of no facts which would suggest that Wilcox did anything which was effective in actually protecting anyone or ending the threat. His heroism comes from the fact that he tried. Frankly, that’s enough in my book.

    Here’s the question: Would we still think of him as a hero if he’d pulled his gun and moved substantially towards the perps but the police had showed up before he could actually do anything and told him to back off, which he did and survived? In other words, is he any more a hero because he died in his brave but futile attempt than he would have been had he made the brave but futile attempt but survived?

  20. there are multiple aspects:

    legally – he seemed within bounds
    tactically – he seemed out of his element
    practically – not enough info
    morally – is for each person to decide

    each one of those has a different value for any person. morally it may have had such a high value for Wilcox that it compromised his tactics when he committed to it.

    would Wilcox have regret had he lived thru the incident? that is the ultimate question that should judge his actions.

  21. OK as a qualifier in respect to disclosure I‘m a retired municipal LEO with a defensive tactics officer survival training focus background. That and a dollar will get me a cup of coffee and I profess nothing else. What happened to the two officers in question here has been covered in a lot of past in service trainings. It happens, it’s tragic and the action of deranged criminals, I feel great sorrow for their families.
    Now as to the actions of Mr. Wilcox, he made a decision and acted on it, consequently being ambushed and murdered in doing so. A highly trained and experienced LEO might well have and most likely would have done the same. Active shooter training doctrines teach LEO a preferred response but reality has a way of hindering that.
    The bottom line is he didn’t have to do anything but instead choose to try and stop an armed offender. I’ll not fault him, won’t second guess him and abhor any other doing such. It simply is what it is, learn from it and consider what you’d do if placed in the same situation.

  22. I personally would have gotten the hell out. I am not a policeman, i have no immunity for my actions, and as is often said , my ccw is NOT a badge.

  23. Liberal Dave,
    In short – no. The heroism/bravery began the moment he made the decision to act and then acted on that decision to place himself in harms way in defense of his fellow man.
    Would the media have paid the same attention to his actions had it played out as in your hypothetical? Same answer – no.
    One addition to my previous comment, especially if it had played out as you described in you hypothetical. Have you dwelt on in your mind in preparing for these scenarios how to greet the arrival of responding law enforcement?
    Mr. Wilcox was probably unaware that two officers had just been assassinated a short distance away, responding officers only info was that two shooters who had killed brother officers were in the immediate vicinity. I’ve seen no time line, but I’m thinking officers arrival at the Wal-Mart was pretty close on the heels of Mr. Wilcox’s confrontation.
    I’m fortunate to have a retired officer I.D. to show and could probably get a pass on shouting “police officer!”, others need a plan to address this, especially in these unique circumstances where responding officers may, understandably, be less willing to hesitate very long to engage who could be the active shooter. You owe it to yourself and responding officers.

  24. Mr Wilcox is a hero who probably should have spent a little more time in the ‘O’ phase of the OODA loop, considering he was apparently not faced with an imminent threat to his person and chose to close the distance to the perp.

  25. Based on Mas’ description of the events, I would say Mr. Wilcox had the right intentions, but lacked the tactics to deal with the murderers. I would still consider him a hero for trying, in his mind, to help his fellow man.

    Being a former LEO for two agencies and always thinking up scenarios I may encounter, so I could plan for them before they actually happen, it is still impossible to cover every situation. In this one, I would pay attention to what the suspect’s intentions are before acting and try my best to be aware of anyone who looks to be a cover unit. If the bad guy/gal wants to empty out the premises by making threats, allow them to do so, and let the responding police deal with them.

    However, if innocent people are in imminent danger of being seriously injured or killed, one should act immediately to neutralize the threat and
    do so in a quick and effective way. Try to approach the target from behind and don’t show your weapon until really to engage. Don’t give out any warnings or give the target a chance to surrender as it will only alert him/her to your presence and take away the element of surprise.

    Always be aware of cover and concealment and use them it possible. Take head shots if you are capable of doing so, preferably from behind the target. If there seems to be only one suspect and time allowing, take a quick second shot to center mass just in case, then go low ready and watch for any cover units. Tell everyone to remain calm and not to move, then use your mobile phone to contact police and advise them of the situation and be sure to give them a physical and clothing description of yourself so you will not be mistaken for an evildoer. Do this while you are still ready to engage with your weapon until the police arrives. Keep the bad guy/gal in visual contact and make sure no one tries to remove or conceal the suspect’s weapon. Hopefully the suspect is dead, but if not, don’t attempt to approach and render first aid. Let the cops and medical
    personnel handle that when they arrive and secure the scene.

    With the world going down the toilet, helped in large part by our Dear Leader, and the growing threat of Islamic terrorists coming to our shores or already here and just waiting for their call to action, we can expect lots more of these situations in target rich environments where they will be mass mayhem due to not just handguns, but rifles and explosives too.

  26. I think one has to admire the guy. Having been both an LEO and a combat soldier, I probably would have fallen back on old habits, like getting my back to a wall and finding cover (watch your six), nor would I “run to the gun,” like perhaps a current off-duty LEO, but faced with a nutcase gunning down un-armed civilians, within my range and control, I would, I hope, have jumped into this fights, as well. One has to remember, a CCW permittee doesn’t want to jump into a fight to “help the cops,” as he’s just as likely to be perceived as another crazy with a gun, and get mowed down by an officer, but in this case, it doesn’t appear there were officers nearby capable of intervening. It’s a shame he got taken out by the “tailgunner,” which probably he would not have had he had prior experience, but his heart was definitely in the right place. Gotta give him credit for bravery and concern for his fellow man.

  27. The primary reason I carry a gun if for the protection on myself and my family. Generally I prefer to be a good witness and keep my nose out of other peoples business. However when one witness an event that ‘shocks the conscience’ there comes a time where one can not just sit idly by. If that day ever arrives I pray that keep my head on a swivel and assume there are hidden threats.

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

  28. In my mind, a hero is someone who knowingly puts his life in jeopardy to save the life of a stranger. For instance, a parent sees their child fall into a river and jumps in to save the child, he is not a hero, he is doing what a parent is supposed to do. Captain Sully that landed that plane on the Hudson River, a few years back, is not a hero, although many called him that. He was doing his job and got lucky and was saving his own life in the process.

    This is a classic case of woulda, coulda, shoulda. Hindsight is always 20/20. Wilcox was a hero in my book. So that his death should not be in vain, let’s make a note of what he should have done and what he did wrong and burn it into our minds. I know I have.

  29. The Tactical:

    The situation here is one that any citizen might face; we should all ask ourselves if our training emphasizes “look for bad guy number two” enough. A brief conversation on the range today with one of my fellow instructors- we both agreed we did not.

    Note to self- increase my own emphasis on dealing with multiple bad guy situations AND make sure this is done in classes as well.

    The Moral:

    Now- for the hero question.

    ABSOLUTELY right Wilcox is a hero. He was beaten by the tactical situation, but he gave “… his last full measure” in an attempt to defend his fellow citizens from imminent deadly peril- a kook waving a gun around in a Wal-Mart, acting unhinged and obviously homicidal. Under such circumstance, even if Mr. Wilcox did not know the actor had just murdered two officers, it would be perfectly reasonable to expect the armed kook to start firing at the innocent people there at any moment – unless he was stopped.

    Like the passer-by who dives into the lake to help the drowning child, Wilcox self-lessly put himself, willingly, at risk to protect others.

    That is what makes a HERO. Sadly, heroes sometimes lose, but it does not make their actions any less heroic.

    When America no longer produces heroes who will dive into the lake to save a struggling child, or who will charge to the forefront to protect the innocent from gun-toting thugs- we will be … in a bad way. ” Let the Professionals do it , it is not my job” is the creed of cowed serfs, not free citizens of a republic.

    Further Thought:

    Someday soon, coming to a shopping mall near you, as seen previously in Mumbai, India, may be be something worse than a disaffected and murderous couple. Much worse, you may have 10 jihadis bent on martyrdom and the punishment of ” The Great Satan”. Armed with rifles and other small arms, as well as small explosives, they will be there to commit mayhem and slaughter on a wholesale basis in a public forum. They will kill without compassion or remorse every person who comes within range. The only force opposing such vermin right then and there will be armed citizens – normal people will ultimately have to be the first responders. I hope we have heroes then, too.

    God grant His grace to Mr. Wilcox, and peace and comfort to the Wilcox family.

    Regards

    Gregory Taggart

  30. I wonder what was going through Joseph Wilcox’s head. Did he know that he was dealing with an active shooter, or hostage situation. One can criticize his tactics, speed of response or just trying to escape. But when all is said and done Teddy Roosevelt said it best:

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

    Joseph Wilcox was not one of the timid souls. I prefer a society where there are more like him.

  31. Wilcox is a flat-out hero. If I were ever in his position, I hope I’d have the balls to try what he tried. I’ll bet he waltzed right on into heaven without any of the pre-screening interviews. Joe

  32. I have been told my whole life that there is no greater love a man can show than to lay down his life for those he cares about.

    This man did this, without hesitation. He laid his life down for those that could not defend themselves. He is a hero.

    It pains my soul deeply that there is discussion taking place in this nation that would claim anything other than this simple Truth.

    –Matt R.

  33. He did the Right thing, paid the price for it too ..

    He made what I think is an easy to make mistake.. these shootings are rare enough to start with … adding a second shooter is even more rare and the fact the other shooter was a woman is the rarest of them all ( in the mass public shooting context) … Wilcox may have looked right at the woman and not even recognized she was a threat for that very fact.

    Ask these ” should have stayed out of it” folks this.. how did they feel about the people who stood around and just filmed while the McDonalds worker Beat on a woman in front of her toddler child. Wilcox didn’t just stand and watch with his cellphone taking a video to post on “worldstar hip-hop” later…He tried to help and was ambushed just like the two officers that died.

  34. There’s a few folks here who could benefit from reading (and appreciating) Evan Marshalls little note about the Dangers of Intervention.

    Not knowing the exact tactical situation Mr. Wilcox had, I won’t comment upon his actions. I do have to wonder about the approach to the visible gunman and wonder if he intended to (or did) challege him.

  35. 1. Mr Wilcox was a hero. He saw people’s lives in danger and he acted to help them.

    2. Mas, good that you waited until the situation was a little clearer before commenting on this incident.

  36. When I went through my old agencies advanced training, they were pushing the idea of getting out fast if you were not in enforcement or arrest mode.
    Their experience was that there were too many unknowns if you just walked into a situation.
    I found that out one night, when I drove into an apparent kidnapping, an adult male dragging a petite female across a parking lot with her screaming, “let me go, I will not go with you”. It turned out to be a domestic situation, with the wife angry at her husband for not coming back to pick her up on time. Worse, he was drunk and an off duty cop. It worked itself out, but it was still tense and could have gotten really bad.
    I would not second guess Mr. WILCOX, we are not seeing the situation through his eyes. It would be best to try and learn something from this situation, so his sacrifice is not in vain.

    Jim

  37. If Wilcox made any mistakes here it was being ‘overfocused’ on the 1st shooter and not being situationally aware of the possibility of a ‘layoff’ guy, or gal.​ But given the suddenness of this, and the time dilation factor that we both know happens in these type situation’s, Wilcox can hardly be blamed for doing what he did. Wilcox did the best he could, with what he had at the time and just got caught up a lack of information about the size and number of the threat’s. If he didn’t know about the wife being a shooter Wilcox can hardly be blamed for not perceiving her as one at the time. And that she bushwacked Wilcox is the actual lesson to be learned here. Situational threat assessment doesn’t stop when the bad guy, or gal, is down. It stops when the police, the Sheriff or whoever is the Law, gets there and assumes lawful control of the scene and secures it.

  38. Mas,
    As we discuss Mr. Wilcox’s response to this incident, would you care to comment on your thoughts as to how Tennessee v. Heller might apply, with emphasis on II(b) paragraph 4, especially if Mr. Wilcox had been aware of events leading up to his confrontation with the assassins. The way I read this decision he would have been justified in shooting the POS in the back of the head without warning.
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=471&invol=1

  40. Some submissions say Mr. Wilcox did not have enough training, he was too eager to get into the fray, that he was too narrowly focused and he should have just kept his nose out of police business. Where did that info come from?
    Over the years, how many senior police officers have been ambushed and killed in the line of duty, some within months or weeks of retiring?
    All the training, all the years of experience and all the wisdom of years won’t necessarily save a person. An experienced and highly trained law enforcement officer could easily have become a victim in Mr. Wilcox’s situation, just another woman in the crowd turned out to be the other murderer.

    How many L.E.O.s would have missed spotting her as the 2nd shooter, 5%, 20% maybe 50%, depends on her appearance and behavior I think, but there’s a crowd of people to profile in Wal*Mart, right Mas?
    Monday morning quarterbacks, bless their hearts…

  41. Part of being a CCW’er is learning and practicing our trade. We need to know, as Rob Pincus puts it, whether on not we should when we could (or something to that effect). We cannot know every type of situation, but we must continue to learn from these incidents to better prepare us for the moment of truth. Mas, thank you for all you do to engage the firearm community on these issues!

    I am a huge supporter of those like Mr Wilcox who choose to be a sheepdog, and uniform or not, we must make that decision knowing full well what the risks are in life. While his death was tragic, I would say that he made a good decision at the moment to “be involved”, regardless if he wanted to or not (I have yet to see a detailed report). Those who commit the now infamous spree killings turn their heels yellow when an opposing force is put against them. Not a scientific study, but my own theory from reading the reports, that their cowardice becomes all too evident and the killing usually is interrupted. Even though he perished, he did save lives even if he couldn’t save his own.

    In closing, I am reminded of my youth when I saw my own father step up and defend/stop a woman who was being brutally beaten in the middle of the street, in broad daylight, in a suburban neighborhood, on a weekend afternoon. My dad had nothing but his bare hands to put between the woman & her attacker (who was noteable larger than him). My father never had to engage the man, but he bought her enough time for the violence to stop and the police arrived. Those of us in LE know the dangers of domestic violence, from both parties involved, but I’m sure my dad did not. Yet he still stepped up because it was the right thing to do. I am often reminded of Edmund Burke, who said “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” And I fully believe that Mr. Wilcox did something.

  42. A lot of focus seems to be “What if *I* was Wilcox” but I wonder how opinions might vary if the same commenters would place themselves in the store at the time of this incident, say 75 feet away from Mr. Wilcox.

  43. People who think that Wilcox was wrong to involve himself need to read a great paper by Robert Heinlein called the “Pragmatics of Patriotism,” which was part of a larger speech he gave to the Plebes at Annapolis in 1973. It’s available on the Internet.

    Bad guys will of course try to protect themselves by not revealing their numbers. You must either wait them out or have a second or third unrevealed partner yourself. The bad guys are aware that people carry unseen guns.

    The police and even in the military when clearing a building work in pairs to protect their partner from a hidden bad guy–even one in plain site.

    SamAdams1776 III Oath keeper
    Molon Labe
    No Fort Sumters
    Qui tacet consentit
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    Idque apud imperitos humanitas vocabatur, cum pars servitutis esset.

  44. I honestly don’t know how I would have acted had I been in Wilcox’s position. If I had someone with me, then my response would most certainly have been to move to protect them and ready a deadly response if simple cover and avoidance wasn’t working. If I didn’t have someone with me, then I don’t know.

    What does seem to be certain is that those who were there (LVPD) are saying that this guy bought crucial time for the cops with his life. He didn’t mean to give his life, but his actions seem to have saved quite a few by delaying the perps. In that, he is as much as hero as all true heros: they didn’t go seeking it, but when the situation arose they still acted.

  45. A sheepdog, one who protects the flock, knows he may be set upon by other wolves, yet knowingly acts despite the perils. Situational awareness is hyped by all and sundry, yet we all will join the innumerable caravan……I for one am quite tired of seeing society crumble for fear. Some risks are worth the effort at being a decent citizen.

  46. I will attempt to compare Joseph Wilcox’s actions with those of a soldier. As a civilian, what was Joseph Wilcox’s duty? His duty was to work to provide for himself and his family, to obey laws and to pay his taxes. The decision to carry a gun to protect oneself, in modern society with police officers, is already going above and beyond the call of duty. If Mr. Wilcox only used the gun to defend himself, he would still be helping society, because with that gun he might dispose of a criminal. Getting that criminal off the street helps society, even if a CCW carrier only wants to protect himself. Mr. Wilcox used his gun to help others. He could have chosen to flee. In this he went above and beyond the call of duty. A soldier who does that gets recommended for a medal. We don’t give medals to civilians.

  47. Without getting long winded about it, I support Mr. Wilcox all the way.

    The only thought I have is that maybe he should have just opened fire, without warning, or moving towards the shooter, but that’s just my 20/20 hindsight?

    Mass:

    In the nearby city of Missoula, we recently had a shooting, where a homeowner got fed up with having his place burlarized, and wound up killing a German foreign exchange student, who seems to have taken up with the wrong local crowd, and happen to the “Next Person” to enter the homeowner’s garage, and so wound up getting shot.

    Per KPAX: MISSOULA – It now looks like the trial of a Missoula man accused of fatally shooting a teenage foreign exchange student who broke into his garage will start before the end of the year.

    Markus Kaarma is accused of deliberate homicide in the death of foreign exchange student Diren Dede in late April. Prosecutors claim Kaarma caught the 17-year-old and a friend breaking into his garage and killed the teen with a shotgun blast into the garage.

    Kaarma’s attorneys are expected to argue that he panicked and fired blindly into the garage out of fear.

    http://www.kpax.com/news/new-murder-trial-date-set-for-accused-missoula-garage-shooter/

    Wonder if you have heard of this case, or have any thoughts on it?

  48. Paul, I try not to address cases which have not yet gone to trial. Defendants get enough pundits dumping on them without me adding to the pile. However, speaking just hypothetically, if one’s defense theory is that he panicked and fired blindly, death resulting, one has pretty much just pled guilty to manslaughter.

  49. I’ll have to admit I’d never heard of the “tailgunner” thing before this. I guess I’ve led a sheltered life.

    Scenario A: Wilcox didn’t think to look for a tailgunner, who then shot him.

    Scenario B: Wilcox did look for a tailgunner, didn’t recognize her, and she shot him.

    Scenario C: Wilcox looked for and recognized the tailgunner, but engaged the active shooter first and wasn’t fast enough to deal with her afterward.

  50. If Mas would permit me to toot a horn for him – there is a video all of us should watch and learn from as we think about our comments to this question.

    Search for a video on youtube (I hope I’m not getting the guy in trouble) using the words “Massad Ayoob Awareness Reality Check ”

    Hopefully not a spoiler alert but out of 120 highly trained people who were put into an interesting situation only two passed it correctly.

    Watch that video and then reassess what you think of Mr. Wilcox.

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