I just got home from a month on the road teaching defensive shooting and deadly force decision making. Half of that was in a “ten round magazine limit state.” My sidearm du jour was a Beretta 92 Compact customized by Wilson Combat. This pistol was designed around a thirteen-round magazine, and capable of taking a standard full-size fifteen-round Beretta 92 mag, or Beretta’s extended twenty-rounder. I normally carry it with a sixteen-round Compact magazine from MecGar backed up by an eighteen-round full length 92 mag. (Thanks to friend and blog reader Erich for turning me on to those!)
As soon as I got home, the first thing I did was replace the ten-round magazines I’d been carrying on the trip with fifteen rounds of Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P 9mm ammo, backed up by eighteen more in a standard size 92 mag from MecGar.
Was I expecting a zombie apocalypse? No, of course not. “It’s the spirit of the thing.” When genuine criminals commit crimes with guns, the first thing that happens in the plea bargain is that the illegal gun charge gets dropped, so you can imagine how irrelevant the “illegal magazine” is going to be with genuine criminals. For the law-abiding armed citizen, though, there is no lesser included offense, so the illegal magazine charge sticks. In New York state, for example, it’s a felony per magazine to be carrying one that can hold more than ten cartridges, or even to bring one into the state, even if the magazine is empty let alone loaded with ten rounds.
The only people who will obey that law are, of course, those of us who are law-abiding to begin with. And in the case of this particular pistol, that took sixteen chances to survive an attempted murder down to eleven. That’s about 69%. How fair would it be, for example, to require motorists to fill their fuel tanks no more than 69% full? If your home defense firearm is America’s most popular rifle, the AR15, its thirty-round magazine is now reduced by two-thirds for the good guys only. Sort of like being in a boxing match where your opponent is allowed unlimited punches per round, and you’re limited to ten.
The embattled home invasion victim who has to grab a gun from a drawer or quick-release safe will be lucky to get to the gun, let alone spare ammunition. The wheelchair-bound person licensed to carry a gun generally finds it’s all he or she can do to make room for the pistol, let alone spare ten-round magazines or revolver speedloaders. The law impacts only the law-abiding, not the law-breakers.
Some of us in the gun owners’ civil rights movement are working to eliminate those empty, meaningless laws, and we hope that the Supreme Court’s recent Bruen decision will help us with that.
Your thoughts?
Fans of magazine limits assume that criminals respect magazine limits.
BTW, who put those holes in the nine-ring? I know it wasn’t you!
Alas, all three of them were my fault, and not the Beretta’s. 🙁
How far was the target?
4 to 15 yards.
I’ve only attended MAG40 but I see what appears to be two scores there. So that is a 300 followed by a 297? Is that from one of your other classes?
Col. Travis, the host club provided the targets, NRA B-27s. The 300/300 score was “qualification mode.” If you can “embiggenate” the picture, you’ll see the qualification scoring guide on the upper left of the target. 5 points possible per shot. For tie-breakers for top shot in class, we used the competition scoring: 10X, 10, 9, 8, and 7 out of 10 possible points on the concentric ovals that emanate from the center of the target. Had there been any ties there too, we would have proceeded to center-X count to break the ties. On that particular target, with 60 shots fired, competition score was 597 out of 600 possible points. Shooting was done from 4 to 15 yards, the course you would have shot at MAG-40.
Really!? Men of our….maturity….producing targets like that? I for one would not worry too much about a few nine ring hits. But that’s just me. Good job Mas.
While the illegal gun and magazine charges will dismissed for criminals, you know that they will be the centerpiece of a case made by a leftist DA against a citizen involved in a righteous self defense shooting. “Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the defendant showed wanton disregard for human life by carrying ELEVEN rounds of 9mm instead of only the allowable TEN.” Maybe it will help you explain why you shot him with an approved 6-shot 44 Magnum. None of it makes any sense and they can never justify why 7,10, 15 rounds is OK but 30 isn’t. It is all about power, control and the gradual erosion of our rights as free citizens.
@ Mark – “…you know that they will be the centerpiece of a case made by a leftist DA against a citizen involved in a righteous self defense shooting.”
Yes, indeed. It can make a critical difference. Suppose that someone, in a State where the magazine limit is 10 rounds (and having more is a felony), happens to defend himself against a car-jacker with a 13-round magazine in his pistol. He shoots and kills the car-jacker and claims self-defense because the criminal was armed with a large knife and threatened to cut his throat.
It goes to trial. The cagey Prosecutor includes the felony weapons count in the indictment along with a murder charge. The murder charge is on shaky ground because of the self-defense claim but the over-limit magazine charge is clear and provable based upon the undisputed facts of the case.
In his closing arguments, the Prosecutor tells the jury that they must convict on both counts. The defendant’s guilt is clear on the magazine charge. So, the criminal was killed by the defendant during the commission of a felony (i.e. the weapons charge). That makes the death a felony murder. Self-defense does not apply, he tells the jury, since the defendant was not innocent himself.
Result, the jury finds him guilt of the weapons charge and, thus, is compelled to also find him guilt on the murder charge. So, on an otherwise clean shooting, the defendant gets sent to prison for a long, long, long time!
You see how these ridiculous gun-control laws can work to increase the risk of a citizen who acts in self-defense? This is why the Prosecutor tried so hard to get the weapons charge accepted against Kyle Rittenhouse. Because, if it stuck, it could have been used to attack Rittenhouse’s “Mantle of Innocence”. When the Judge threw out the weapons charge against Rittenhouse, he really helped the defense with their claims of self-defense. Who knows if Rittenhouse would have been found “Not Guilt” if the Judge had allowed the weapons charge to stand?
The American Left is trying to “criminalize” weapon ownership. To punish people for simply trying to be armed. For simply trying to defend themselves.
So, these laws (like the magazine limits or the bans against so-called “assault weapons” or so-called “Ghost Guns”) are not light matters. They act to reinforce the Left’s efforts to criminalize gun ownership. They directly (and indirectly) hurt our 2nd Amendment Rights.
The Bruen Decision, if fairly applied, should act to neutralize these unconstitutional infringements upon the 2nd Amendment. If FAIRLY APPLIED. That is a BIG IF!
You are correct! I live in NYS, and had more “freedom” to carry in more places prior to Bruen than after. Hochul just thumbed her nose to the SCOTUS and Biden’s Legal Department (no Justice as there are two tiers of justice in America) will not enforce SCOTUS ruling.
Yes, it’s the legal framework that is stacked against gun owners, and each little law is designed to make it more risky and costly to defend oneself. Thankfully the disincentives to crooks are still high enough to make a difference
TN-MAN, Well said Sir…..thank you for taking the time to post this, from an old guy in Florida
So, this seems to be an angle to play with the state legislatures which will consider such bills.
We explain to them that we male carriers will start carrying .44 and .357 magnums notwithstanding the risk of over-penetration. Females will have to consider carrying 1911s in .45 ACP notwithstanding the weight and bulk. Is that what legislators what to tell their constituents? That their new law will push us into carrying deadlier calibers because we can’t count on the persuasive power of >10 rounds in the kinder-gentler 9 mm Parabellum?
Ooh, they’ll tell you that 9mm will “blow your lungs out,” remember?
So, a 9mm will “blow your lungs out”. According to Dirty Harry, a .44 Magnum will “blow your head clean off”. What part of your body will a 1911, in .45 ACP, blow off?
I reckon that Tom606 must have the answer to this question since he carries one! 🙂
P.S. I hate to consider what a Desert Eagle chambered for .50 AE would do. I figure it just might vaporize a person completely, like a phaser, leaving nothing at all behind. 🙂
These hoplophobes are always good for a laugh whenever they talk about firearms!
it just might vaporize a person completely, like a phaser, leaving nothing at all behind.
that’d be great.. no evidence for the coppers to drool over.
TN_MAN:
“What part of your body will a 1911, in .45 ACP, blow off?”
I can say with a certain degree of accuracy, that anyone I shoot with my trusty .45 ACP caliber pistol will not reproduce again. 🙂
@ Tionico – “.. no evidence for the coppers to drool over.”
Not necessarily true. According to some of the Star Trek episodes that I have watched, even when a body is vaporized by a phaser (or a disrupter), there may be scorch marks, DNA traces, and residual energy signatures left behind.
Of course, one needs a good Tricorder to pick up on this evidence. I am not up on current police crime-scene technology, but I have not seen any “coppers” using Tricorders yet. 🙂
No handheld firearm, not even the super powerful 9X19mm Parabellum can completely erase a human body. There will be minute particles of blood and microscopic pieces of tissue and bone scattered over an area of several hundred yards. A well trained K-9 could detect that and ultraviolet light will reveal blood, urine, and other stuff. However that evidence must be recovered quickly as insects will rapidly consume the bodily remains. However, if a 9mm hollow point bullet was used on someone, then there will be nothing left as the bodyparts will be blown into outer space. 🙁
@Tom606: However, if a 9mm hollow point bullet was used on someone, then there will be nothing left as the bodyparts will be blown into outer space.
Check your physics, bud. “9×19” is shorthand for “9mm, warp factor 19”. The hollow point, when it comes into contact with flesh at speed, creates the kind of micro-black-hole Stephen Hawking predicted, with the exact mass of the victim, and an Einstein-Rosen bridge that sucks every molecule of the poor sap into an alternate dimension and then dissipates without a trace. Because of the extreme physics involved, the whole process takes a fraction of a nanosecond. There’s nothing left to examine because there’s literally nothing left this side of the universe. 😉
TN_MAN asked what part of the body a .45 ACP round will blow off. According to the movies I’ve seen, when someone is hit with a .45, it knocks them back at least four feet, and they break through the glass window which was behind them.
Archer:
Wow, I never knew such a thing was possible, but we are always learning new things about science. I will check with Doctor Fauci who claims to be science itself. I assume it’s also possible that the microscopic particles of a shooting victim’s body will be traveling faster that the speed of light and therefore could be transported back in time, maybe to the Jurassic Period when dinosaurs still roamed the land.
Excellent shooting on that paper target, and an excellent article, on something which should not even be an issue. I see no room for improvement in your shooting, or your writing!
I want to compare and contrast the strategies used by our enemies the Jihadists, and our enemies, the Communists. The Jihadists are tyrants who want to rule us, but they tell us the truth. They tell us what they believe, and why we should submit to them. I appreciate their honesty. They will engage us in open conflict.
The Communists are tyrants who want to rule us, but they lie to get their way. They appear to want good things to happen, but that is only so they can deceive half the voters. They are all about deception, and have been for a hundred years. They will not engage us in open conflict. They claim to support the Second Amendment, but will do everything to chip away and erode it as much as they can. That’s why they quibble about the capacity of magazines, and other issues which don’t matter, or matter very, very little.
The Sons of Liberty resisted tyranny and so will we. “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” Ben Franklin.
Good people are obedient to God. Those obedient to Allah will give us a choice to convert or be slaughtered. Liberals and Communists don’t want us dead, they only want to be our masters. Keep your guns handy and practice with them regularly.
At one time my sidearm was a BHP Mk II with the original 13 round mags. Per standard procedure in the day, they were only loaded with 12 rounds (plus on in the chamber) as using 13 sometimes caused “issues”. However, my spares were genuine 21 round (only loaded 20) Browning mags made under some unspecified contract (have long wished I’d bought more than 2).
I professionally spent a lot of time getting lectured by those with neither training nor experience with the dynamics of violence or firearms on what’s necessary for defending oneself or others. We were mutually dismissive of each other’s points of view until 9/11. Then, and only then, did they shut up (for awhile) and the budget money flowed. Occasionally, I got asked for advice.
I’ve seen the rationalization of the ten round limit as an opportunity for the victims to attack and overcome the shooter. I have to wonder just where, in these days of the “run, hide, cower and bleed” mindset, they expect some unarmed person with the will to do so is going to come from?
That’s why, when I moved to a high-cap ban state, I sold my PT-92 and its magazines. I bought some Wilson ETM magazines for my .45 ACP 1911 (and eventually acquired a LW Commander).
If I’m going to be limited as to the number of rounds in my gun, I’ll carry the ones that make the largest holes.
Dear Stephanie, you might want to compare the penetration of 230 grain ball ammo, as well as any other ammo you might use, between the full-size 1911 and the LW Commander. I always thought my Commander would penetrate significantly less on plywood or other “hard” targets than would the match-grade 1911 on which I learned. Not necessarily all bad. Hollow point 185 grain or so is likely going to over penetrate less on perps than 230 grain ball. So generally, as Mas has said, hollow point .45 ACP is preferable to ball ammo. Depending on whatever live target you need to shoot, though. I have known people to use a .45 ACP, likely with heavy ball, to stop bear with head shots, but I would generally choose a more powerful caliber on large animals. .45 ACP can be most accurate, though.
Steve, I only use ball ammo on paper targets. 230gr Federal HST JHP’s what I use for carry ammo.
It is a step toward what they really want. First the magazines, then any any firearm that will accept them. And NEVER imprison the violent street criminal because its misbehavior is due to the oppressive society of victims.
NEVER imprison the violent street criminal because its misbehavior is due to the oppressive society of victims.
That’s the excuse used, but the real reason violent criminals are never imprisoned is because the criminal class is the natural ally of the Marxist/communist class. Stalin’s regime even called them “social allies”.
OTOH, the free citizen — especially the armed free citizen — is a threat to both, and must be eliminated.
It reminds me of rolling out to the grocery store near home after the COVID-19 [plademic] kicked off. People were lined up outside of the grocery store, Masked firmly in place, rubber gloves on, shopping carts all lined up 6 feet apart, each person waiting their turn to enter the store because the policy was NO-More that 50 customer’s in the store at one time. I had no mask, no rubber gloves to wear and felt as though I had crossed the Berlin Wall over 40 yrs ago. These “Officials” making these laws and guidelines want the pats on the back by liberal voters demanding!! that something be done to protect the public and stop the violence.
My favorite “FED” character portrayed by Kurtwood Smith; 1983 Movie “Flash Point”. Inspector Carson, a [FIXER] from Washington D.C. tells Border Patrolman- Bobby, “If we didnt have em, we’d invent em, = Illegal aliens. How else would the Border Patrol justify the million of dollars it gets from the Congress each year. They all have to justify their jobs.
In this day and time with with policy allowing millions to cross that southern border unvetted and unfettered, I am surprised at you apparent complaint that the BP receives too much money! BP numbers are way down and they are forbidden to enforce the laws on the books. They are by Biden policy, baby-sitters. It is likely that the 87,000 IRS agents signed into existence, will find just enough intended or unintended mistakes to pay their own salary. Those numbers should have been added to the BP and ICE.
Bruce Frank,
I agree with you. The Border Patrol should be doing their job of stopping the illegals. They should disobey Joe Biden’s illegal orders to babysit and transport the illegals to the fifty states. Of course, I know if they disobey Joe, and do the right thing, they will have their paychecks withheld.
It seems that bad people get into power by being ruthless. I am afraid that to keep them out of power, good people will have to become even more ruthless than bad people. We sure are being pushed around.
Be careful about saying “ruthless.” One definition of the word is “cruel and predisposed to causing suffering.”
Roger, listen to Mas. Crooked Joe is not ruthless, but our benevolent Dear Leader and if you say otherwise, he will unleash the S.S. on you or some of those 87,000 new IRS agents to audit you and find/make up something to put you in the big house, which after so many actual violent criminals have been released recently, now has plenty of empty cells.
@Bruce Frank: I think I get what you’re saying. “Ruthless” is the right word literally, but colloquially there are better choices. The definition is “having no pity or mercy”, which is what we’d expect of purely “by the books” law enforcement (the law is supposed to weigh the facts, after all, not emotions). However, “ruthless” carries connotations of cruelty, which I’m guessing is not what you’re going for.
I do agree that the Left gets and keeps power by not making concessions where they don’t need to, and by removing their “squishes” from power in favor of more hard-line candidates. And I agree that the Right needs to grow some spine and emulate those traits. In that sense, “uncompromising” might be a better word choice than “ruthless”, even though the literal definitions are similar. (We could make the argument that the Left is, in fact and with all negative connotations, ruthless. But we don’t need to take on that image for ourselves.)
Mas & TN_MAN,
I’m just worked up because I can’t stand watching the bad guys win. The root of our problems though, is bad voters. Many Americans voted for the government we have now. America is slowly dying the only way it can die, by suicide.
@ Roger Willco – “…slowly dying the only way it can die, by suicide.”
Yes, we have lived to see the prophetic words of Abraham Lincoln coming true.
Quote of the Day:
“From whence shall we expect the approach of danger? Shall some trans-Atlantic military giant step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never. All the armies of Europe and Asia…could not by force take a drink from the Ohio River or make a track on the Blue Ridge in the trial of a thousand years. No, if destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men we will live forever or die by suicide.” – Abraham Lincoln
The problem is, Roger, that people like us can see our self-destructive behavior clearly. Unfortunately, so many other Americans, especially among our younger generations, have been indoctrinated by the Left’s schools and by the Left’s media. They believe the Left’s “Big Lie”. They believe that the old “Bad American” must be torn down to make way for the bright, shiny new Left-Wing Socialist Utopia of “Social Justice” and saving the World from “Climate Change”.
The only thing that the Left builds, and has ever built, is death, misery, oppression and warfare. The Left always promises “Utopia” but all Leftists are supreme liars. The Left specializes in building dystopias.
Yet, they never fail to harvest a bountiful crop of “Useful Idiots” out of each and every generation. They always find plenty of people willing to believe in their lies.
It is a failing in human nature for which we have, as a species, repeatedly paid a heavy price. Soon the “Butcher’s Bill” will come due again.
I gamed that game at Trader Joe’s. Showed up at the door with naught on my face but whiskers. You must wear a mask to enter the store. I cannot safely wear a mask, what can we do, as you are obligated to accomodate my disability, They asked me what it is I needed inside, I told them, they dispatched oe of their people, picked up the four items, I had sent payent along, got the goods, receipe, change all in a small bag, along with a smile. I left with a big grin on my mug in place of the mug nappie they had isisted I don, and laughed all the way back to my car. Three people had been “allowed” to enter that dangerous place of business during the time it took their “member” to go fetch what I wanted and come back to me with it, paid for with my money which was most likely at least as “contaminated” as the air inside the place which was easily passing right through those silly blue sets of pleats they all had slapped accross their mugly uggs.
Kabuki Theatre at its most macabre. SO silly we were to tolerate it as long as we did……
I’m about 3/4 convinced that the Kabuki Theater of COVID was less about public health and safety, and more a dry run to see how much disruption and restriction the American People would tolerate if they were sold a crisis.
I’m sorry to say, if that’s true, The Powers That Be (the ones behind the scenes we never hear about) are rubbing their hands and grinning. We allowed it to go way too far for way too long. We let the “crisis” change how we VOTE, for G-d sakes, AND let it last longer than a full election cycle!
The takeaway for the string-pullers is, if they can come up with a health crisis every two years or so, we’ll be so panicked we’ll gleefully accept drastic changes to our way of life and freedom. So now that COVID is two-plus-years in, we get outbreaks of monkeypox and resurgences of a polio-like disease, just in time for elections.
I can’t wait to see what new or old malady comes out in the Spring of 2024.
Tionico,
Right you are. I’m seeing a few more masks lately. Fine, wear a mask, as long as I am free not to. Besides, if you people are going to wear a mask, shouldn’t it be an N-95 mask? I’ve heard from a doctor those are the only masks that work. Hey, if your health is so important, why don’t you wear a gas mask?
My immune system protects me. Notice how the American medical establishment had the policy that during pandemics, infected persons and maybe the vulnerable would be quarantined. In 1985, when the AIDS virus became known, the medical establishment refused to quarantine anyone, but they did shut down bath houses. When COVID hit, they quarantined everyone. Both times the medical establishment acted according to political policy, not their written medical policy.
Archer – I am 4/4 convinced. There is no way the years 2020-21 were for our good health.
Roger:
“…why don’t you wear a gas mask?”
Better to buy a slightly used NASA space suit on ebay and wear that instead of a gas mask, especially those questionable military surplus ones offered by just about everyone out there. A space suit is even superior to a HazMat suit in case someone fires a super powerful 9mm round and blows you up to outer space.
Wearing a space suit in public has other benefits too. Beautiful young women and attractive female Trekkies may think you’re an astronaut and ask for autographs. Practice your Vulcan peace salute and two finger kiss gesture. 🙂
I’ll bet the state you were shooting in exempts LEOs from the magazine limit, and probably includes retired LEOs. After all, we wouldn’t want them to be outgunned by the bad guys.
But wait! Aren’t the officers trying to catch the criminals because they are preying on us? So we face the same well-armed opponents they do, and we don’t have radios and backup.
Rule of thumb: If a “gun safety” law exempts LEOS, it’s not about safety.
Mostly agreed. However, the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act limits retired officers, or those from out of state NOT on police business, to the same magazine capacity as a private citizen with a carry permit.
“that took sixteen chances to survive an attempted murder down to eleven.”
This is something that I think about abstractly but I have never thought of it this way – loosing out on chances.
My least-capacity pistol holds 12 standard. My most holds 17 standard. Whenever I shoot the 17 I think – it’s nice to have more than 12. Whenever I shoot the 12 I think – I’m glad I don’t have, say, 8, but it would be nice to have 17.
Lo and behold Sig comes out with a 17 round 365 X Macro. Have not seen one in person yet. My current carry is a 365XL, sure would be nice to have 17 standard in a small gun. I could get a 15 round mag for the XL but I am not a fan of that extended mag. I don’t know if the Macro grip would affect me the same way. Sometimes a gun just won’t suit you. I’ve lusted after firearms and then when I hold one for the first time and it doesn’t work out it’s like asking someone out on a date and they tell you to go buzz off.
I saw a 365 X Macro yesterday and it was nice. they tried the 17-round mag from the X Macro in a standard 365 and it locked up, stuck out the bottom by an inch it cycled fine.
saves the money you’d have spent to use instead on something that will help.
That’s why I NEVER put down the plonk until I’ve FELT that thing in MY hand. That guy promoting it doesn’t have the hands I do, nor the arms attached to those hands.
New York State is a “murder free” state, that is, murder is against the law in every part of the state. However murders still occur in New York State. Therefore, the leadership of the major political party in New York State that controls the governor’s office and the legislature has decided to prohibit possession of firearms in sensitive or restricted locations in the state, making them “gun free” zones, apparently believing that persons not deterred by the state being a “murder free” state will be deterred by a place being declared “gun free.”
The Legislature and the Governor rammed a new law through after the Bruen decision came down, essentially giving the finger to the US Supreme Court and the concept that law abiding persons have a right to carry effective tools for self-defense.
“How fair would it be, for example, to require motorists to fill their fuel tanks no more than 69% full?”
No. How fair would it be, for example, to require fire fighters to fill their air bottles, fire extinguishers and truck water tanks no more than 69% full? Or doctors and paramedics to charge their defibrillators to no more than 69% of the needed charge? Or defense lawyers and judges to score no more than 69% on all their law school work?
There. Fixed it for ya.
^^ THIS ^^
Requiring motorists to under-fill their tanks — or pressure manufacturers to install smaller tanks and engines — will be deemed necessary, because “climate change”. But the analogy fails because in most cases, a commuter car’s fuel tank isn’t emergency protective equipment.
What would be more fair, is if politicians’ and celebrities’ armed bodyguards were required to fill their guns to 69% full (or whatever the “civilian” limit is), undergo random unannounced inspections by independent auditors, and if found not in compliance both the bodyguard and the person they are charged with protecting are criminally liable to the exact same degree a “civilian” would be.
In my opinion, that’s one reason these gun laws keep getting passed: the politicians get carve-outs and exceptions for “their people”. Eliminate the exemptions and make the laws apply personally to them — as if they were citizens of the same state/country, as novel as that idea is! — and they’ll (hopefully) be more hesitant to push onerous restrictions.
Politicians and those affected by gun control tunnel vision don’t (or won’t usually) understand that the fine motor skills needed in a gunfight are not there due to the human physical stress response which definitely affects accuracy and shot placement. They need to open their minds and attend live fire training complete with the ‘gut check’ of a simulated defensive encounter. I never liked capacity restrictions even before training but never knew why outside of government “power grab” until MAG-40. Now I can clearly annunciate why capacity limits are stupid and dangerous. Doubters might not like my answers, but I don’t get lucid or well reasoned counter arguments either. Thanks for your training Mas. Absolutely worth the cost of admission!
Everyone mentions the shot placement, but my favorite on the target has to be your signature! Sorry to ask, but is it a cat or a dog? Hard to tell – I blame the low res picture combined with low res eyes!
Cat. You can tell from the eyes. 😉
My standard line of debate about magazine limits is: is it OK for a mass shooter to kill people with 10 round magazines instead of higher ones?
Keep in mind, the Parkland shooter brought only 10-round magazines and was able to kill 17. His gun may have jammed, so that might be a low number. Is everyone OK with 17 killed, just because they were killed with 10 rounders?
Yes, and the Va. Tech killer murdered 30+ with two pistols, one of them a .22, mostly 10-round mags. If you are unarmed, trapped and not fighting back somehow, a killer can take all the time in the world. He also moved freely between buildings and rooms, plenty of time for reloads.
Anti-gun politicians are simply anti-gun. They do not use logic, they don’t care about debate. They want guns out of society, period. Whatever it takes to get that for them, incremental or outright banning, they will do. These people cannot be reasoned with. They simply must be defeated.
not that I’ve ever seen saying so in print………
And “The One That Started It All” (according to many on the Left), Columbine, was committed with a 9mm carbine (all 10-round mags), a 9mm pistol (three “high-capacity” mags), and two sawed-off shotguns: one pump (4+1 capacity) and one double-barrel. Notably, the 9mm pistol — the only gun with “high-capacity” mags — was only fired a handful of times during the entire event; most of the dead victims were killed in the library with the shotguns, which the shooters would have been reloading or topping off constantly.
We’re told magazine capacity limits will save lives because they cause delays, to which I ask: How will the 2-3 second delay to change mags make a difference in a “Gun-Free Zone” when the armed response time is measured in minutes (or in the case of Uvalde, hours)?
I’m all for magazines that hold as many rounds of ammunition as one can comfortably carry and conceal. This especially is important to those who pack small caliber guns which needs more shots to bring down evildoers and in our current bad times, vicious hordes of murderous, rampaging criminals roaming the streets.
I personally carry a 1911 in .45 ACP with a 7 round magazine in the pistol and 7 & 8 shot magazines on my belt and my backups only have 5 or 6 shots, so the ridiculous 10 round magazine capacity limit doesn’t affect me at all. However the majority of other gun packers carry either 9mm pistols with magazines that hold 10+ rounds or mouse guns. The former needs as many shots as possible as most don’t carry extra magazines on their person. Those who rely on mouse guns, other than Mr. Bond, better hope that their attacker(s) run away from the threat of being fired upon than actually being shot. I would advise those carrying .380 ACP pistols to yell when confronted by evil goblins, “Stop or I’ll shoot you with my 9mm!” which is technically true as far as caliber, but not power.
The future will be even more bleak when our government will require candy and cookie manufacturers to limit their products to 10 count packages. The revolution will really start then.
Tom606, imagine the impact on the police when a dozen-donut box is reduced to ten or less! Will they feel shorted? Of course, the officers can just mooch more 10-boxes. Or else cut the snacks short and confront the bank burglary down the street. I think I am going to watch “Dirty Harry” again today while it is still on Netflix. Harry has a way to discourage crime that definitely trumps the fake governor. Give bank robbers a taste of mock Russian Roulette. A good lesson in how to be “cruel and predisposed to cause suffering,” i.e. get their attention, without further causing injury, and saving other lives at the same time. I get a bang out of guardhouse lawyers like FJB when they tell you what you can’t do to them.
American liberals, especially the wealthy and those in power enjoy being sadistically cruel to their hard working and desperately struggling to survive conservative neighbors, and causing them to suffer unnecessarily by their diabolical economy destroying decisions, such as erasing borders, increasing taxes, arbitrarily restricting our supply of oil and driving up the price of diesel and gasoline, which raises the cost of everything. However, don’t call those thin skinned Socialists ruthless as they see themselves the saviors of American society due to their intellectual superiority and manifest destiny to rule over us. They are our benevolent Dear Leaders and we lowly peasants should be grateful for their wise guidance.
BTW, when donuts are free, it doesn’t matter what size box they come in.
The intent is reduction to zero. Ten is just a convenient rounding number. Once that is achieved, then it will be, “most revolvers only hold six rounds, so that should be sufficient” Then is will be five, another convenient rounding number. Our collective memory needs to learn that all gun control is just slow piecemeal reduction. Eventually it will be “Only single shot black powder should be allowed”. Then it will be, NONE, which is the ultimate goal. Every time the firearms community has given ground in the past, it’s never been reciprocal, although that was always the false promise!
The gun-grabbers’ “compromise”: “We’ll let you keep that and just take this … until we decide to take that, too.” (You’ve seen/read the Gun Rights Cake analogy, right? 🙂 )
If that’s what you mean by “reciprocal”, it’s never been a false promise. What do they say every single time a new law is passed?
“It’s a good first step.” As if the 20,000 other gun laws and regulations already on the books — many for decades — don’t count.
It’s well past time gun owners — and their various organizations at all levels — take the grabbers at their word. If it’s “a good first step”, you know they intend to take a second step, and then a third, and then however many more it takes to get where they want to go. No law will never be enough until private ownership of all weapons is criminalized and banned.
Two months ago I was on vacation in New York State, being a law abiding citizen I left weapon at home (except for an axe in the toolbox) gritting my teeth because I was in a state that didn’t honor my CCDW or trust me with one. Three weeks from now I’ll be on a military range where my selector switch has two clicks not just one not to mention magazine capacity. So I guess the government trust me a percentage of the time (not 69) but not the rest.
It’s simply another way of telling us to “Jump” and expecting us to ask, “How High”? We don’t live in a free country when required by law to handicap ourselves in relation to the bad guys. Why 10 rounds? Why not 3 like the waterfowl limit with a shotgun? It’s really all about control.
The other side actually uses the argument “They only allow three shots for ducks.” 🙁
but dicks don’t shoot back.They just quack.
That bent makes as much sense as, uhm, hard to think of anything else that stupid. But then, consider the highly bribed/paid source. Ya think those Mad Mommies are all out there for the sun time? Nah. There are some bucks trading hands every time some group is pushing this insanity.
Not that I expect they’ll understand the difference, but laws governing small game hunting are intended to maintain a sustainable population of game. Self defense isn’t. There’s also considerably higher stakes than having to go to the supermarket for your protein.
That said, there actually are people who manage to believe that if guns disappeared, so would all manner of evil doing. I’ve told at least one there actually was such a period of time, it was called the Middle Ages. Evil doing still seemed to exist-and prosper- and most of us were litterally owned by those with the training (and youth) to use the weapons of the day.
@ WR Moore – Actually, the World was much more violent, prior to the invention of firearms, than it is today. This is not just my opinion. Author Steven Pinker has written a book, entitled ‘The Better Angels of Our Nature’, in which he documents (with extensive hard data) the fall in human violence over time.
Note that the Battle of Cannae was fought in 216 BC and it is considered to be one of the bloodiest battles in history. I can say with 100% certainty that no firearms were used in this battle! See this link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae
Also, the Mongols killed a significant slice of the World’s population during their invasions. Although gunpower was known, at the time, firearms were not widely used. The vast majority of these deaths were racked up using the standard, non-firearm, weapons of the Mongols. See this link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire
So, the idea that the World would revert to a peaceful paradise if firearms were eliminated, from civilian ownership, is a “Pipe-Dream”. In reality, violence would dramatically escalate as the strong would prey upon the weak with little fear that the weak could fight back. Firearms are a civilizing influence in society contrary to the lies spread by the gun-grabbers.
Remember what they used to say in the Old West: “God did not make all men equal; Colonel Colt did!”
Amen!
TN_MAN:
“I can say with 100% certainly that no firearms were used in this battle!”
This may not be accurate as I saw on the TV news a few days ago that The Toronto, Canada police recently seized a completely corroded solid revolver which appeared to have been used by cavepersons to hunt dinosaurs with. It’s possible the owner of this relic unearthed it under a T-Rex skeleton. The residents of Toronto are much safer now that this prehistoric gun is off the streets.
@ Tom606 – I think I found the news article you referenced. See this link:
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/rusty-gun-post-attracts-a-lot-of-attention-for-toronto-police/ar-AA110ZZw
Sorry but your dating is a bit off. This revolver appears to be one of the inexpensive revolvers that were popular on the American/Canadian Market during the late 19th Century to early 20th Century period. It looks rather like a Harrington & Richardson Model 1905. Of Course, with all the corrosion, I can’t be 100% certain on that!
If it was found under a T-Rex Skeleton, it was because an early fossil hunter dropped it during a “dig”. 🙂
Neither it, or any of its siblings, would have been available for the Battle of Cannae!
I am afraid that the Romans, who fought this battle, would have had to “make do” with the gladius, pilum, and other such weapons.
TN_MAN:
I’m not saying the T-Rex carried that revolver as those carnivores were reputed to be liberals and rabidly anti-gun. However, it’s possible the T-Rex ate a caveperson packing that piece on a Saturday night.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Gun controllers want guns in the hands of their “Shock Troops”. ATF and IRS come to mind here. They just don’t want us peons to have them. If we really followed the Constitution we wouldn’t need a permit to exercise our right to carry and bear arms.
In fact non military people should be able to have a three click selector switch without any paperwork or tax stamp. That’s if we really followed the Constitution.
So glad I moved out of CommieYork 30 years ago. But this 10 shot caper makes my 8 shot PC 327 look pretty good. The Bolsheviks that have stolen our nation are attempting to regulate the 2nd Amendment out of existence.
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