I was in a conversation recently which turned in the direction of serpents, and not the two-legged kind. I’ve never had to shoot a human being, but have found it necessary on occasion to dispatch poisonous snakes. Each time that happened, I was VERY glad to have a pistol on my person.
What’s the collective experience out there? I’m no herpetologist, but I keep hearing from folks who live in rattlesnake country that today’s rattlers have learned to keep silent and not give warning before they strike. True?
Please share experiences here.
I live in rattlesnake country and have all my life . The meme that rattlesnakes always rattle is and always has been false . I have killed 6 or 7 around the ranch this summer i suppose , some rattled and some didn’t just like always. Seems to me that a lot like people , If they know your coming they will rattle and give warning , but if you truly surprise them they will just bite you and be done with it . Just because the first you are aware of a rattler is when he sounds off don’t mean he hasn’t been aware of you for quite a while and just didn’t think you would head his way , or was too comfortable where he was to want to move .
NPR had an article on this topic
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=216924322
The keep silent so that you’ll pass them by and not bother them. It’s always pretty much been that way. If they strike, it’s because you stepped on them or nearly so.
Tom
Rural Arizona
Dunno if it’s “learned” behavior or just that snakes that rattle attract attention to themselves, and thus are more likely to be killed…
I have been active in the outdoors and desert in Arizona since 1971. When I was a teenager we would go north of Phoenix and catch and release rattlesnakes just for fun.
There have always been occasions where some snakes would rattle and some would not. In my experience it has to do with temperature and how much notice the snake gets. If it is a cold morning the snake is much less active and much less likely to rattle. If the snake hears you coming it is more likely to give you a warning. If you surprise the snake and almost step on it, it is much more likely to strike without a rattle.
I haven’t seen any evidence of snakes evolving to not rattle. Could they even evolve that much during my lifetime anyway?
I’m an old fart, so my experiences are 20 years ago, but every rattler ‘I’ have encountered both coiled AND rattled prior to trying to strike. And gross motor skills WILL cause you to miss the first shot from 6 feet… sigh
Had a small farm here in Texas and regularly had to dispatch rattlesnakes. They were very common, particularly down by our stock tank. I shot a few but discovered the best way to kill the snakes was with a shovel. Of course, on the farm carrying a shovel was easy, out in the woods not so much. About half of the snakes gave a warning rattle. I think this had more to do with the snake feeling an imminent threat. The snakes that did not rattle were not coiled and were slithering across the field to get away and probably did not feel trapped. I killed them anyway as we had cattle and other livestock that could be bitten if I allowed the snake population to grow.
Paul in Texas
I was born and raised in an area without rattlesnakes, plenty of water moccasins and copperheads, but no rattlers.
After retirement, I moved to an area where eastern diamondbacks are plentiful and protected by law (as are all snakes in this state). I’ve had numerous encounters with them and was surprised how hard it was to provoked them into rattling. Natives to this area call them “velvet tails”.
I’ve seen documentaries where herpetologists said that this “quiet trait” evolved as a result of man killing the ones who were “quick to warn” when encountering a man.
I live in a remote area. I once had a conversation with a game warden who was admiring my hat which was festooned with six sets of rattles. He shared with me that he had been a part of the restocking program that had re-introduced the rattlesnake to the Ozarks after years of absence. He said they had air dropped them from helicopters. I asked him how many they dropped in Little Rock. He seemed shocked that I would even suggest that, replying they were too dangerous to have done that. I then asked if they were a special breed that would only bite city folks and not country folk. He handed my hat back and changed the subject.
Mass,
My wife & I have spend a week in the middle of Wyoming every year for the last eight years. I’ve never had to shoot a snake but, I always carry a handgun, weather a revolver or semi-auto the first round is a CCI shot load. We actually saw more bears than snakes this year though.
Thanks Mass,
Jim
Never heard of “Stealth” rattlers, unless someone surprises one- for the most part they seem to want as little to do with us as we them.
Had to dispatch 2 in the garage this year who were flat out ornery and wouldn’t leave.
Single shot Benjamin .22 air rifle- 3 pumps and a head shot gets it done.
I live in the Southwest high desert, definitely rattlesnake country. I don’t know if they’ve learned the behavior or not, but the snakes I encounter are not prone to rattle at every little thing. But the few that actually tried to strike at me were all rattling at the time.
Incidentally, after a harrowing experience with a Mojave Green that took 3 through-and-through hits with a .45 and only got angrier, I’ve decided that a shovel is a much better anti-snake weapon than a pistol. Though, granted, I’m less likely to have one on my person when needed. If I’m clearing brush, I keep a shovel nearby.
Snakes, not having much in the way of brain power, aren’t learning not to be silent, but natural selection is proceeding as Charles Darwin theorized. Rattlesnakes developed their rattles to warn large, four-footed mammals such as buffalo, deer, and even wooly mammoths from stepping on there. Unfortunately such a strategy isn’t as effective against mankind, with his reasoning power, monkey curiosity and hatred of snakes, nor does it work against farm equipment and earth-moving equipment. Natural selection, then, has favored the snakes that were more adept at keeping silent.
In an even better proof of Darwin’s theories, the rattlesnakes of Santa Catalina Island in the Gulf of California have lost their rattles entirely, since they have evolved to hunt birds in brush and any rattle sends the bird fleeing. Darwin, you will remember, noted that populations of animals on islands were the quickest to evolve because of pressure to survive.
More on the Santa Catalina Island Rattlesnake here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_catalinensis
^And, of course, I notice that, reading the Wikipedia article *after* sending it, my knowledge is dated, and the Santa Catalina Island Rattlesnake does *not* eat birds at all, but dines mostly on mammals and lizards, as do most rattlesnakes. And current theory of loss of the rattle involves remote location and lack of predator species: the same reason that Dodoes became extinct.
Being an Ex-Border Patrolman (PI), I have killed my share of Rattlesnakes (Sidewinders), most of whom struck my sign cutting light (hand held, 100W aircraft landing light), while tracking illegal Aliens, on the night shifts at Yuma, AZ.
But my classmate (85th Session), Glen Copeland probabely holds the record, with 144 kills, during a single shift, that I know of?
Very true Mas, either they are silent, or they approach under false pretense. I too have never had to shoot in self defense but I have drawn my weapon on 4 separate occasions when disparity of force was suddenly very imbalanced. My most recent “close call” was this last weekend when a “pan handler” followed my 4 year old and I from the entrance of a 7-11 to my parked SUV. Upon exiting the store, I immediately noticed this individual, dressed in a black Raiders sweater with his hood up and his associate in matching Raiders sports jersey loitering near the entrance. Seemed kinda cliché to me, particularly after they gave each other an ominous look and the hooded figure proceeded to follow my son and I to our vehicle. It was in the early evening and this 7-11 was not in the most desirable neighborhood so I was already a bit more cautious than normal. As I was helping my son into his seat, the hooded one approached me from the rear of the vehicle and started to explain his “situation” and his need of cash. Meanwhile his buddy circled around the front of my vehicle to position himself behind me. In my mind, this spells S-N-A-K-E-S. I reached around to grip the G17 in my waistband and even though I never “flashed” the gun, the hooded one must have recognized the gesture and immediately backed off. He apologized and his cohort retreated the way he came as well. As usually the case, predators back off when they are met with an armed response.
Until three years ago , I lived in your county and there are a LOT of snakes there.
I too have “dispatched ” a good number of them around our horse farm , they included Rattle Snakes , Cotton Mouth Moccasin and a few Coral snakes.
Sever of the rattle Snakes were the ones that are known only to a few counties in N Fl, it’s know as a Canebreak Rattler. There skin has a “pinkish ” color and they are pretty striking in appearance – they are still very deadly .
I too did notice that not that many gave me a warning sound when found/disturbed.
The Moccasins were the ones I found to be the most aggressive by far.
I found my old long barrel Colt .38 loaded with shot shells to be really effective !!!!
After all the rain we have had in the Treasure Coast of Fl, recently , I am seeing a lot more snake and I assume you too are seeing more in N.Central fl, yourself.
I’m not an expert, just a lifelong learner. There is a fair amount of opinion that says through pressure from feral hogs and humans, rattlers have changed some through natural selection to favor the snakes that don’t rattle early and loud.
Don’t know about rattlesnakes, but in Australia since we have a number of deadly snakes, I’ve lived by the rule that a good snake is a dead snake.
Dispatched normally via 12 gauge.
Having sad that, most Australian snakes will get out of your way if they can. The exception is the Tiger snake which will stand it’s ground and have a go.
during the spring and summer in Hayfork California we used to take a 12 gauge and shoot it where we are going to walk along the creek and then feel safe around the water moccasins.wwe take a few steps in and fire into the tall grass.
I live in snake country, and I’ve always remembered what Cooper said. “If you see the snake in time you don’t need the gun; if you don’t see the snake in time, the gun won’t do you any good.” Goes back to situational awareness, I guess. Anyway, I’ve always thought the snake/gun thing was overrated.
No experiences with poisonous snakes yet and I hope things stay that way for me. Like Indiana Jones, I really hate snakes.
Question for you Mas:
Do shot-type cartridges chamber reliably in decent 1911 pistols? (Mine are all Kimbers and function flawlessly with typical Hollow-Point Ammo).
Shot one this spring…
the last two have been with a 1911 in .45acp with Rem. GS 185gr+p…
as that’s what was in the gun when I needed it…
a friend says I was 2 feet off of the ground when the gun “snaked” out and I shot him…
shot the heads off of both…
I’m not sure I’m that good a shot.. but I was sure scared…
they were both within’ inches when I first heard then saw them.
pictures! and it’s a Luke Volkmann 1911… pure sweetness
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201064535534002&set=t.100002545976310&type=1&theater
Don’t live in rattlesnake country. Around here we have Water Moccasins. Got 6 of then last year up to about 3 1/2 feet. Seventeen Cal air pistol at 10 to 20 feet. Has to be a head shot or they get away. One day I got two inside 10 minutes Shot a female and a male showed up. Both head shots. It’s a residential area so firearms are a no no.
Growing up in NE FL and quail/dove hunting over in Live Oak, FL gave me many opportunities to encounter both Eastern Diamondbacks and Cottonmouth Water Moccasins. In your area, watch out for rattlesnakes especially near gopher tortoise holes. Even in the midst of winter, you can find them out sunning.
Having now resided in GA for over two decades and hunting in SW GA a good bit, I have learned to NEVER be in the woods without MULTIPLE firearms and a good pair of snake-proof boots. (BTW: It’s pretty hard to hit a moccasin with a pistol, on the move, with the head darting back and forth.)
As for more rattlers not rattling: Natural Selection would dictate that those who don’t get noticed have a greater chance of survival and thus reproducing and passing on their instincts through their offspring. So…yes. It’s highly likely that non-rattling rattlers are becoming more prevalent.
Maybe the snakes are like the quail. You shoot the quail that fly and don’t see the ones that run. After a while all you have left in the gene pool are the runners. Maybe the snakes that are audible are the first ones dispatched. After a while all you have left in the gene pool are the ones that – well, you get my point.
In my younger days hunting in the South Texas brush country, there were both kinds. The closest I ever came to was one that didn’t warn me. I was chasing down quail through thick brush and my next step would have been right on him. I could swear I stopped in mid-air and stepped backwards (like in the cartoons) and immediately blew that diamondback into two pieces with a 20 gauge. BTW, shoot a snake with a shotgun at close range and it will become airborne from the rebounding energy. This is something that many hunters have to learn from experience. If you are standing back and watching your partner get this experience, it makes for some interesting and funny visuals. The laughing never stops that evening.
There’s a truism that says if you are hunting and have a close encounter with a rattler, you will spend the rest of the day looking for snakes and not what you are hunting.
When I was deer hunting on one opening day, I was “still hunting” down a Texas ranch sendero. I would take a half dozen steps and then stop, wait, and listen. At one point where I stopped I heard a twig snap right under the purple sage bush next to which I was standing. I expected to see a rabbit run out, but nothing emerged. I very slowly side stepped until I was about eight feet from the bush, then squatted down to look under it. The snake was huge. It was curled all around the lower part of the bush so I couldn’t tell how long it was, but the head was the size of a man’s closed fist. You could’ve made two belts, four hatbands, and a couple pair of boots out of that critter. I was about to drop the hammer on it when I remembered that I was standing only one foot from that snake and he didn’t hit me. So, I decided to return the favor and let it be. Besides, I wasn’t finished deer hunting and any shot and further ruckus would have made the deer scarce in that immediate area.
Actually, the safest weapon to use on a snake (safest for you, not the snake) is a good sharp field shovel with a long wooden handle. You stand right behind the snake and stick the blade into the snake right behind the head. How do you accomplish getting behind the snake? Why you talk your hunting partner to go stand in front of him and get its attention. If you can do that, then you can sell snow to an Alaskan.
One more thing. Never run over a snake crossing the road. At a high enough speed you are liable to throw it up into chassis where it will ride home with you and then drop out onto your driveway – still alive.
Some stay quiet; others don’t. I haven’t noticed a pattern, but perhaps others have.
Here in southeastern Colorado we run into either prairie rattlers or the Western Diamondback varierty.
I’ve had multiple encounters with both types in the past twelve years, some were close calls, and not all rattled before striking.
Two experiences were right outside either the main entrance door or the kitchen door. Our dogs have been struck but we saved them with rapid
uae of Amoxicillin, Prednisone etc.
I use an eight foot polystyrene staff to get such offensive snakes to coil and then dispatch them when necessary with .45 Colt CCI snakeshot from a Ruger Vaquero.
The word around this part of OK is rattlers have learned that if the rattle a wild hog will eat them. Snakes must be slow learners as we humans have been killing them for as long as we have been in the same area.
Eve had not caught on to how she ought to have responded to her Eden serpent.
if you fire a hundred thousand round of big bore pistol ammo without ear protection you can not hear a snake rattle any way.
When I was in college, one of my courses was ‘herpetology’ (the study of reptiles). My professor told us that there is a genetic strain of rattlers that doesn’t rattle when threatened. If people reflexively kill the rattling rattlers, what’s left? BTW, rattlesnakes are probably more scared of us than we of them. When they buzz, all they are doing is trying to say, in effect, “I’m over here, please leave me alone”.
Mas, way back in early 1981, I was stationed on temporary duty status at Fort Huachucha AZ. My pal Bob and I used to take long (conditioning) hikes in the Sonoran Desert on Saturdays and Sundays.
I always carried a blued Ruger MK I Semiautomatic Target Pistol chambered in 22LR and fitted with a 5.5″ Bull Barrel. Bob always toted a blued Ruger Blackhawk Single Action Revolver chambered in 45 Colt and fitted with a 4 5/8″ barrel.
Rattlers usually sounded off loudly when we got too close and we merely headed 180 degrees in the opposite direction.
On one occasion, we were breaking brush and I was the point man.
Without warning, I felt a squishy feeling as my right boot hit the ground. At the same time, my ears detected a loud rattling near that boot. Screaming “Holy S–t!”, I jumped up and forward as if I were representing the USA in the high jump during the Summer Olympics. I landed in a pile of dirt, dust and tumbleweeds.
Bob dispatched the six foot long Western Diamondback Rattler with one shot. I made him swear on his honor that he would tell nobody about what had happened. He was indeed a man of his word. He told nobody. Instead, he told everybody! WTH!
The year was 1981. There were no cell phones. There were no ready rescuers. We were located more than two hours by foot from our trucks. We had first aid kits, food, survival kits and plenty of water. However, had I been bitten, I would have been in a precarious situation. We respected Mister Rattler 100%.
The only extremely difficult part of this story is that my fellow Army veteran comrades who learned of my world record setting high jump and less than graceful hitting the dirt on my backside in the Sonoran Desert still tease me about my hilarious and horrendous landing over three decades later!
I now own a blued Ruger MK III Semiautomatic Target Pistol chambered in 22LR and fitted with a 5.5″ Bull Barrel. If you do not own one of these superbly made, incredibly accurate and tough as nails pistols, buy one today. You will not regret your choice. Mas, please back me up! 🙂
P.S. I would be interested in hearing from your readers who reside in southern states where poisonous Cottonmouths / Water Moccasins rule the swamps, the waterways and the wetlands.
One day my son had alerted me to a coral snake fighting with my dog in my yard in front of the garage, I retrieved a gun with snake shot went outside to investigate, I found the coral snake all curled up playing dead in my garage after watching it for a while I assumed my dog had killed it. As I approached it with a shovel to remove it suddenly lunged at the shovel. I learned my lesson about coral snakes they will play dead for ever. Now onto last rattle snake encounter on my property it turned and moved back towards pine trees when it sensed me it was at least six feet plus. No rattling! Just a fast 180.
One day my son had alerted me to a coral snake fighting with my dog in my yard in front of the garage, I retrieved a gun with snake shot went outside to investigate, I found the coral snake all curled up playing dead in my garage after watching it for a while I assumed my dog had killed it. As I approached it with a shovel to remove it suddenly lunged at the shovel. I learned my lesson about coral snakes they will play dead for ever. Now onto last rattle snake encounter on my property it turned and moved back towards pine trees when it sensed me it was at least six feet plus. No rattling! Just a fast 180.
One day my son had alerted me to a coral snake fighting with my dog in my yard in front of the garage, I retrieved a gun with snake shot went outside to investigate, I found the coral snake all curled up playing dead in my garage after watching it for a while I assumed my dog had killed it. As I approached it with a shovel to remove it suddenly lunged at the shovel. I learned my lesson about coral snakes they will play dead for ever. Now onto last rattle snake encounter on my property it turned and moved back towards pine trees when it sensed me it was at least six feet plus. No rattling! Just a fast 180.
John Mohan, I’ve never found a snakeshot round I trusted in the 1911 or any other semiautomatic pistol. The shape doesn’t feed well, and the light recoil does not seem to reliably cycle the slide.
John Mohan, I’ve never found a snakeshot round I trusted in the 1911 or any other semiautomatic pistol. The shape doesn’t feed well, and the light recoil does not seem to reliably cycle the slide.
A couple of years ago, we attended a program given by a PA State Park Ranger on Rattlesnakes. He had a rattler there and a copperhead. Just laid them out on the picnic table at the pavilion for us all to see. His claim, two types of people get bitten. Ones who screw with the snake (usually alcohol involved) and ones who surprise the snake. Don’t be either of those and you’ll likely not be bitten. 70% of bites are “dry”, meaning no venom. The snake gets to decide. They can tell how large the prey is by the size of it’s heat signature via the pits on the side of their nose. If they can’t kill it and eat it (ie, a human), it’s likely going to be a dry bite as a warning to get away. Also, Eastern Diamondbacks and Timber Rattlers are not generally fatal, don’t know about the western species. And, did you know if you relocate a snake, there’s a good chance it will die once it’s out of it’s home territory? I know a lot of people shoot them and I can’t say it’s always a bad idea. Obviously, if it’s in an area where it needs to leave, and your options are limited, what are you going to do? But, in general, they are not the killers they’re thought to be and are usually reclusive. You’ve probably passed more of them than you know and never knew it. We were camping in northern PA last year and one was crossing the road. Got some good shots of it before a guy came the other way and shooshed it across with a stick. He obviously had done it before. The snake put up very little resistance and went on it’s way. I’ve learned to appreciate them to a degree, but I can understand why folks hate them. Don’t know if they’ve learned not to rattle. Seems counter intuitive to what we know about them, so I’m calling bullshit til I see otherwise. I DO know their rattles can be removed and re-installed like push-lock ball in socket tubing. Saw it with my own eyes. The snake could have cared less! Really shocking to see someone do that!
A couple of years ago, we attended a program given by a PA State Park Ranger on Rattlesnakes. He had a rattler there and a copperhead. Just laid them out on the picnic table at the pavilion for us all to see. His claim, two types of people get bitten. Ones who screw with the snake (usually alcohol involved) and ones who surprise the snake. Don’t be either of those and you’ll likely not be bitten. 70% of bites are “dry”, meaning no venom. The snake gets to decide. They can tell how large the prey is by the size of it’s heat signature via the pits on the side of their nose. If they can’t kill it and eat it (ie, a human), it’s likely going to be a dry bite as a warning to get away. Also, Eastern Diamondbacks and Timber Rattlers are not generally fatal, don’t know about the western species. And, did you know if you relocate a snake, there’s a good chance it will die once it’s out of it’s home territory? I know a lot of people shoot them and I can’t say it’s always a bad idea. Obviously, if it’s in an area where it needs to leave, and your options are limited, what are you going to do? But, in general, they are not the killers they’re thought to be and are usually reclusive. You’ve probably passed more of them than you know and never knew it. We were camping in northern PA last year and one was crossing the road. Got some good shots of it before a guy came the other way and shooshed it across with a stick. He obviously had done it before. The snake put up very little resistance and went on it’s way. I’ve learned to appreciate them to a degree, but I can understand why folks hate them. Don’t know if they’ve learned not to rattle. Seems counter intuitive to what we know about them, so I’m calling bullshit til I see otherwise. I DO know their rattles can be removed and re-installed like push-lock ball in socket tubing. Saw it with my own eyes. The snake could have cared less! Really shocking to see someone do that!
A couple of years ago, we attended a program given by a PA State Park Ranger on Rattlesnakes. He had a rattler there and a copperhead. Just laid them out on the picnic table at the pavilion for us all to see. His claim, two types of people get bitten. Ones who screw with the snake (usually alcohol involved) and ones who surprise the snake. Don’t be either of those and you’ll likely not be bitten. 70% of bites are “dry”, meaning no venom. The snake gets to decide. They can tell how large the prey is by the size of it’s heat signature via the pits on the side of their nose. If they can’t kill it and eat it (ie, a human), it’s likely going to be a dry bite as a warning to get away. Also, Eastern Diamondbacks and Timber Rattlers are not generally fatal, don’t know about the western species. And, did you know if you relocate a snake, there’s a good chance it will die once it’s out of it’s home territory? I know a lot of people shoot them and I can’t say it’s always a bad idea. Obviously, if it’s in an area where it needs to leave, and your options are limited, what are you going to do? But, in general, they are not the killers they’re thought to be and are usually reclusive. You’ve probably passed more of them than you know and never knew it. We were camping in northern PA last year and one was crossing the road. Got some good shots of it before a guy came the other way and shooshed it across with a stick. He obviously had done it before. The snake put up very little resistance and went on it’s way. I’ve learned to appreciate them to a degree, but I can understand why folks hate them. Don’t know if they’ve learned not to rattle. Seems counter intuitive to what we know about them, so I’m calling bullshit til I see otherwise. I DO know their rattles can be removed and re-installed like push-lock ball in socket tubing. Saw it with my own eyes. The snake could have cared less! Really shocking to see someone do that!
A couple of years ago, we attended a program given by a PA State Park Ranger on Rattlesnakes. He had a rattler there and a copperhead. Just laid them out on the picnic table at the pavilion for us all to see. His claim, two types of people get bitten. Ones who screw with the snake (usually alcohol involved) and ones who surprise the snake. Don’t be either of those and you’ll likely not be bitten. 70% of bites are “dry”, meaning no venom. The snake gets to decide. They can tell how large the prey is by the size of it’s heat signature via the pits on the side of their nose. If they can’t kill it and eat it (ie, a human), it’s likely going to be a dry bite as a warning to get away. Also, Eastern Diamondbacks and Timber Rattlers are not generally fatal, don’t know about the western species. And, did you know if you relocate a snake, there’s a good chance it will die once it’s out of it’s home territory? I know a lot of people shoot them and I can’t say it’s always a bad idea. Obviously, if it’s in an area where it needs to leave, and your options are limited, what are you going to do? But, in general, they are not the killers they’re thought to be and are usually reclusive. You’ve probably passed more of them than you know and never knew it. We were camping in northern PA last year and one was crossing the road. Got some good shots of it before a guy came the other way and shooshed it across with a stick. He obviously had done it before. The snake put up very little resistance and went on it’s way. I’ve learned to appreciate them to a degree, but I can understand why folks hate them. Don’t know if they’ve learned not to rattle. Seems counter intuitive to what we know about them, so I’m calling bullshit til I see otherwise. I DO know their rattles can be removed and re-installed like push-lock ball in socket tubing. Saw it with my own eyes. The snake could have cared less! Really shocking to see someone do that!
John Mohan:
Back about 1990, Remington made an excellent shotshell in .45acp. #R45AP5, but it went out of production about ’93. All brass case, with the mouth folded into 6 petals to give it a round profile nose. That would feed and cycle in my Colt Officers Model. It was loaded with 650 #12 shot. That gave it a nice pattern that stayed dense out to about 20-30 ft, IIRC. Longer than you would be shooting a snake in self-defense, anyway.
The very small shot size made it safer to shoot at close range than the larger birdshot, I suspect. Less chance of it retaining much energy in a richochet situation, since you are shooting at the ground with this. One of the custom ammo makers was seeing about 5″ penetration in ballistic gel with his version of this, so it is still hazardous to things bigger than snakes, like your foot, for instance!
Once you find someone that makes this, you would need to function test it in your gun, to check reliability, of course. Back then, I ran pattern tests at increasing distances until it began leaving gaps I considered big enough to miss a snakes head. I was not impressed with .22lr, and .38 special wasn’t much better, but the .44 and .45 calibers were impressive in coverage.
Never used it for real, as the move to snake country didn’t pan out.
here’s a page with that Rem shotshell fired and unfired:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6043
John Mohan:
Back about 1990, Remington made an excellent shotshell in .45acp. #R45AP5, but it went out of production about ’93. All brass case, with the mouth folded into 6 petals to give it a round profile nose. That would feed and cycle in my Colt Officers Model. It was loaded with 650 #12 shot. That gave it a nice pattern that stayed dense out to about 20-30 ft, IIRC. Longer than you would be shooting a snake in self-defense, anyway.
The very small shot size made it safer to shoot at close range than the larger birdshot, I suspect. Less chance of it retaining much energy in a richochet situation, since you are shooting at the ground with this. One of the custom ammo makers was seeing about 5″ penetration in ballistic gel with his version of this, so it is still hazardous to things bigger than snakes, like your foot, for instance!
Once you find someone that makes this, you would need to function test it in your gun, to check reliability, of course. Back then, I ran pattern tests at increasing distances until it began leaving gaps I considered big enough to miss a snakes head. I was not impressed with .22lr, and .38 special wasn’t much better, but the .44 and .45 calibers were impressive in coverage.
Never used it for real, as the move to snake country didn’t pan out.
here’s a page with that Rem shotshell fired and unfired:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6043
John Mohan:
Back about 1990, Remington made an excellent shotshell in .45acp. #R45AP5, but it went out of production about ’93. All brass case, with the mouth folded into 6 petals to give it a round profile nose. That would feed and cycle in my Colt Officers Model. It was loaded with 650 #12 shot. That gave it a nice pattern that stayed dense out to about 20-30 ft, IIRC. Longer than you would be shooting a snake in self-defense, anyway.
The very small shot size made it safer to shoot at close range than the larger birdshot, I suspect. Less chance of it retaining much energy in a richochet situation, since you are shooting at the ground with this. One of the custom ammo makers was seeing about 5″ penetration in ballistic gel with his version of this, so it is still hazardous to things bigger than snakes, like your foot, for instance!
Once you find someone that makes this, you would need to function test it in your gun, to check reliability, of course. Back then, I ran pattern tests at increasing distances until it began leaving gaps I considered big enough to miss a snakes head. I was not impressed with .22lr, and .38 special wasn’t much better, but the .44 and .45 calibers were impressive in coverage.
Never used it for real, as the move to snake country didn’t pan out.
here’s a page with that Rem shotshell fired and unfired:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6043
John Mohan:
Back about 1990, Remington made an excellent shotshell in .45acp. #R45AP5, but it went out of production about ’93. All brass case, with the mouth folded into 6 petals to give it a round profile nose. That would feed and cycle in my Colt Officers Model. It was loaded with 650 #12 shot. That gave it a nice pattern that stayed dense out to about 20-30 ft, IIRC. Longer than you would be shooting a snake in self-defense, anyway.
The very small shot size made it safer to shoot at close range than the larger birdshot, I suspect. Less chance of it retaining much energy in a richochet situation, since you are shooting at the ground with this. One of the custom ammo makers was seeing about 5″ penetration in ballistic gel with his version of this, so it is still hazardous to things bigger than snakes, like your foot, for instance!
Once you find someone that makes this, you would need to function test it in your gun, to check reliability, of course. Back then, I ran pattern tests at increasing distances until it began leaving gaps I considered big enough to miss a snakes head. I was not impressed with .22lr, and .38 special wasn’t much better, but the .44 and .45 calibers were impressive in coverage.
Never used it for real, as the move to snake country didn’t pan out.
here’s a page with that Rem shotshell fired and unfired:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6043
Reminds me of a scene in a novel by Ace Atkins (a fine writer by the way). A man sees two cottonmouths near his fishing hole and blows them in half with a Remington 870. The man’s young nephew asks, “You kill ’em snakes?” And he replies, “Naw. Just scared ’em a little.”
Those who kill big rattlers with a shovel have my admiration. Give me a 12-gauge and a load of No. 6s any day.
Reminds me of a scene in a novel by Ace Atkins (a fine writer by the way). A man sees two cottonmouths near his fishing hole and blows them in half with a Remington 870. The man’s young nephew asks, “You kill ’em snakes?” And he replies, “Naw. Just scared ’em a little.”
Those who kill big rattlers with a shovel have my admiration. Give me a 12-gauge and a load of No. 6s any day.
Reminds me of a scene in a novel by Ace Atkins (a fine writer by the way). A man sees two cottonmouths near his fishing hole and blows them in half with a Remington 870. The man’s young nephew asks, “You kill ’em snakes?” And he replies, “Naw. Just scared ’em a little.”
Those who kill big rattlers with a shovel have my admiration. Give me a 12-gauge and a load of No. 6s any day.
Reminds me of a scene in a novel by Ace Atkins (a fine writer by the way). A man sees two cottonmouths near his fishing hole and blows them in half with a Remington 870. The man’s young nephew asks, “You kill ’em snakes?” And he replies, “Naw. Just scared ’em a little.”
Those who kill big rattlers with a shovel have my admiration. Give me a 12-gauge and a load of No. 6s any day.
In Arizona I always hike with a walking stick and firearms. Rattlesnake encounters are somewhat rare, but inevitable. “Buzzers” feel vibrations from the stick and tend to rattle and withdraw rather than stand ground. Saved me more than once. Take your time walking and keep “in the groove.” Skin-shedding time may be the most hazardous, as the snakes seem to see less well then and may be extra nervous. Warm (72 F), cloudy days and any warm night are also snaky. Two old-time cowboys have told me of meeting aggressive rattlers on the attack, though, even in sunny daylight. The more aggressive-minded rattlers may make the less noise. I have found occasion to use .45 (“Long”) Colt and .38 #9 shot. The more shot the better. .410 bird shot would be perfect. (Watch the sky? I hadn’t read of flying rattlers until today. What will F & G do next?)
In Arizona I always hike with a walking stick and firearms. Rattlesnake encounters are somewhat rare, but inevitable. “Buzzers” feel vibrations from the stick and tend to rattle and withdraw rather than stand ground. Saved me more than once. Take your time walking and keep “in the groove.” Skin-shedding time may be the most hazardous, as the snakes seem to see less well then and may be extra nervous. Warm (72 F), cloudy days and any warm night are also snaky. Two old-time cowboys have told me of meeting aggressive rattlers on the attack, though, even in sunny daylight. The more aggressive-minded rattlers may make the less noise. I have found occasion to use .45 (“Long”) Colt and .38 #9 shot. The more shot the better. .410 bird shot would be perfect. (Watch the sky? I hadn’t read of flying rattlers until today. What will F & G do next?)
In Arizona I always hike with a walking stick and firearms. Rattlesnake encounters are somewhat rare, but inevitable. “Buzzers” feel vibrations from the stick and tend to rattle and withdraw rather than stand ground. Saved me more than once. Take your time walking and keep “in the groove.” Skin-shedding time may be the most hazardous, as the snakes seem to see less well then and may be extra nervous. Warm (72 F), cloudy days and any warm night are also snaky. Two old-time cowboys have told me of meeting aggressive rattlers on the attack, though, even in sunny daylight. The more aggressive-minded rattlers may make the less noise. I have found occasion to use .45 (“Long”) Colt and .38 #9 shot. The more shot the better. .410 bird shot would be perfect. (Watch the sky? I hadn’t read of flying rattlers until today. What will F & G do next?)
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