SECESSION?

I’m obviously only speaking for myself but I don’t really think these petitions are all that serious. It’s a way of blowing off some steam and the Administration has promised a response to any petition getting 25K sigs. It could be fun to see the response, or lack thereof.

Mas,
I think that instead of going the secession route we should petition the government in a different way. We should tell the Feds, “Since you aren’t using the Constitution, can we have it back?”

I don’t think we should leave the union. I think that we should just let those States that don’t plan on following the Constitution to leave and build themselves whatever kind of nanny state they like.

I think it would be more creditable if they were from the actual state legislatures instead of by individuals of the states.

I think it’s just the beginning much like our country was in the 1850’s

Other than KY that has Ft Knox, which state could afford to succed, certianly not here in CA which has a bigger budget deficit % than the fed.gov

Most of this is just people letting off steam about the election results. I feel at most it is a way of showing a “vote of no confidence” to the re-elected Obama administration.

i believe it is just symbolic more than anything .. personally i believe there was just too many things wrong about the election .. areas of the country where RR didn’t get even one vote .. machines that defaulted to O .. i can’t believe that many people do not see what is happening with this administration .. too many unanswered questions .. and out right lies i believe from even the media ..

Stay Safe,
SB

Talk of secession, like talk of leaving the country if the wrong guy wins, is silly and it’s going nowhere. I wrote my observations in my own blog at http://blog.30-06.0rg/2012/11/divisiveness-in-us-and-what-to-do-about.html.

YES!!! I’ll join!

You do realize that the vast majority of so-called “red” states receive more money from the federal government than they pay in, right? Secession would bankrupt all of those states. Not that it’s going to happen anyway. This is just a handful of kooks.

Well, no harm if it just blowing off steam or making a “statement.”

If it is (or becomes) a serious movement, count me out. No state is entirely Red or Blue. Color me Purple.

1) Secession petitions – and their horde of signers already – warn the foreign lenders propping up Washington with their loans that there really may be no repayment if America breaks up or even if its horde of discontented citizens “merely” demand that the lenders, not the taxpayers, take the “haircut.” That is the petitions’ big consequence.
2) Proposed name for new nation: Confederate States of America.
3) Likely reality in event of national breakup: two nations, friendly to each other, side by side – just like the Czechs and Slovaks after their “velvet divorce.”
4) Washington won’t try forcibly holding seceding states this time – as the seceders will be the food and fuel producers for the core Northeast, and fighting those feeding and fueling you is a strategic loss.

HORRIBLE idea, from another post someone ask a similar question i answered:
The “problem” i see with it is that the coasts are mostly aligned. So we’d have to kick them out since a horseshoe with gaps would collapse inward upon us. that would force “us” to carry all existing debt. A new country would start off more fiscally unsecured then the USA is now. The larger reason though is, I have NO desire (as in would rather cut my nuts off with a spoon) to provoke war on my children’s doorsteps. The south lost the moral high-ground with Sumter…we CANNOT let that happen again. I cannot and will not support secession at this time. I truly wish that there was an easier way, I truly believe(d) “We the people” could effect change. I have ran scenarios in my head a thousand times over, and they all end in massive amounts of blood.
I am not opposed to violence, but it must count. I will not be the latest threat to my country, but i will not shrink into despair or run away either. I have an oath as a husband and father first, the rest i will defend against when they cross that line.

Mas– one interesting take was put out by George Hill over at Madogre.com… Hill’s take is that any armed rebellion should be avoided, for ovious reasons, but that the list of petition signers would be used as a basis for “no-fly” or, more ominiously, “no-buy gun” lists. Signing such a list would amount to confessing to sedition, in Administration eyes, and an excuse to strip away people’s rights……

I live in Texas, and secession is nothing new here. While I personally disagree with those who are for secession, I can understand their fears. We are afraid the national government is going to take our rights away. Right to own guns, right to eat what we want, etc. The important thing is to understand that though there is a lot of talk about seceding from the United States, that’s all it is – talk. There is no action behind it at the moment. I fear that if the federal government does decide to take away the rights of Texans to own guns, there could be a serious rebellion. Perhaps not on a Civil War scale, but there would be riots. Sam Houston once said, “Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may.” That statement is as true today as it was when he said it. It’s a part of our heritage and a part of our culture.

I do not believe theyhave will manage to break away. I amnesty no expert and thus will not speculate on if that is for better or worse but I will share my opinion on what this could spark. Anarchy. I believe there are enough radicals in this nation to potentially spark rebellion. Not open war but more so terrorist like attacks. Do I think it likely? No, I don’t but it could happen. There are numerous legal and “illegal” militias in this nation. Most of which I whole heartedly aprove of but some of which scare me. Think in it for awhile and come to your own conclusions. Mine? Prep as much as possible, practice drills, and have a back up plan in case the unlikely proves more likely than believe.

S.B.

I apologize for various errors in my comment. Submitted via email cell phone.

All this secession talk is just hot air. It might be fun to play with the utopian fantasies of breaking away, but if one thinks beyond all the chest pounding and fireworks of a new Independence Day, a cruel reality will set in the moment the day to day details of running a country require imediate attention.

But I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, so I’ll just sit back and enjoy this show. Carry on boys, but keep it clean.

Mas,

I too have been thinking about this for a while. At work the topic comes up frequently it seems. Personally I think a state can secede if it thinks it has lost faith in, or representation in, a federal government. Wasn’t it the Declaration of Independence that said “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes:…” and “that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed to.” That last passage alone would seem to mean that a state, which is a collective of citizens, in fact can make that choice. I would argue that the ever encroaching federal giant is placing many a strain on states and their citizens. According to Thomas Jefferson, a state may secede if it felt these criteria are met. Since about the early 1960’s government has taken on a larger role in what was once state interests. Just a look at the Federal Register indicates how far they can reach. I would venture we each violate some federal law repeatedly in our daily lives without being aware of it.

On the other hand, the Declaration was written to inform the Crown that “thirteen states” were declaring independence. It took a bit of convincing to get even those to agree. History is replete with accounts of those who thought independence was a bad idea. So it could be argued that no one state has that right. Supreme Court Justice, Antonin Scalia, is of the same mind (http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/scalia-vs-thomas-jefferson-on-secession/). His take is that the question was settled by the Civil War.

But what would be the result if a state decided to secede? It would first have to be able to sustain itself without outside aid, right? The loss of federal funding for a few states would be devastating. What would that mean for trade? Some land-locked states may not survive secession. Having marketable natural resources would be key, but not all states would have that, nor a way to get them to market, as doing so would mean crossing into what in effect would be another country. What about states with millions of acres of federal land? Could they sell it back, take it by right of possession? Could it engage in treaties with other nations? What other nations would engage in trade with a single state?

At this stage of the game, secession would do the bidding of the current White House resident, making us less “exceptional”. And how wonderfully, presidential and powerful he would look if he could declare war on Texas, for instance. Not to mention the effect it would have on the rest of the world, many parts of which would not be too remiss about a fractured United States.

In closing, I think a state does have that right, but a number of things have to be in play before that happens. There are more questions than answers here, and I’m starting to rant (some may think I already have). As always, the above is only my opinion and should be taken only as such.

These petitions are basically meaningless. It’s entertaining to read but has no real consequence. Secession is a scary thought, definitely not the desired course. Like many Americans, I am frustrated with the direction of our nation, but giving up on a country that so many have sacrificed, fought, and died for is beyond the last resort. Vote when you can, write your congressmen, join the NRA, exercise your rights or lose them.

I think it’s interesting.
1) I think the people are fed up with the elite class ( tho we keep voting them in ).
2) I think the makers are fed up with the takers.
3) I think the voters are fed up with the corruption.
I think a message is being sent.
I don’t expect much to change.

While I understand the sentiment and would be happy to live in a country where a majority of the electorate hasn’t taken leave of its senses, I don’t see this as a serious movement. What I will want to see is the response to the Texas petition promised by the White House.

Those unhappy with obama have already expressed their dislike. the election is over. obama won.

Would the states keep all natural resourses?
Like Alaska and Texas oil.
More people wanna ride in wagon than wanna help pull it.
Somethings gotta change.
Makes sense that they would take guns. they see things brewin.

People are talking about secession because they feel that federalism is dead. When you read the demands, they aren’t really looking for independence — federalism of the kind dictated by the constitution would be enough.

The other aspect of it is the rampant voter fraud. In this election, we had hundreds of precincts in Chicago and Philadelphia where Romney received zero votes. That is mathematically impossible. Even if he had no support at all, some voter would have made a mistake and voted for him by accident. Vote fraud disenfranchises us all, and leads to taxation wihtout representation — which was enough to start a violent revolution before.

I’m thinking these petitions might serve as an early Christmas present for President Obama. I wouldn’t be surprised if his speechwriters are hard at work now on what may be called one of the most important speeches ever given by an American president concerning the importance of maintaining and protecting the Union.

“Realist,” YOU be one (a realist). Only the cheap tasty food and fuel from Red Nation makes the New York Cities and Bostons even liveable at affluent-nation levels. Secession – especially along the “velvet divorce” lines that the former Czechoslovakia did, peacefully, into two separate sovereign nations with different cultures peacefully alongside one another – would leave Red Nation more affluent and Blue Nation less affluent, as Red Nation producers of fuel and food would promptly raise their prices to what these things truly are worth as when Kuwait sells the same products to America. The newest Kuwait-affluent would speak with a southern drawl!

The main problem here is even if a secession movement doesn’t take hold we are bitterly divided nation right now. Many of us believe, myself included, is that Obama will do nothing to heal that divide. Instead it is quite likely he will do things that further remove our rights.

Sadly the 48% that did not vote for Obama are suffering under his tyranny just the same. Tyranny of the majority, which many of our Founders feared could eventually happen. I believe we are simply too different of people to be ruled by a single central government that is so partisan and that goes for both sides.

1. While the petitions will likely go nowhere, it’s a good indication of extreme discontent with Obama.

2. Secession is surrender. If you don’t like Obama, then work to block his policies through legislation and court action. Don’t throw your hands in the air, give up trying to make this country better, and run to form your own little boy’s club… get off your tail, get to work, and make a difference.

3. Secession is legally impossible in some states, most notably in the South. Some state constitutions prohibit secession due to the Civil War.

In response to Matt’s plan to supply the blue states with food, fuel, etc.

Ahhh Matt. There in lies the rub. The succeeded states of America would be welcome to offer their wears on the global market, but unles the red a states can compete on price, delivery, quality, and demand, and of course are not labeled terrorists (traitors) by the (still) United States of America and thus banned as a trading partner, red fuel and food might be harder to sell than expected.

And as Realist pointed out, US oil, beef, shrimp, corn, etc. is so heavly subsidized that the red states of America would quickly become a “slave producer” country for other countries including the USA.

There is much learning that should be done by studying the economic and societal trajectories of other countries rather than cherry picking velvet-covered pseudo-success stories. I visit the Czech Republic often, and it got the lion’s share of the divorce spoils leaving the Slovak people’s in a sovereign but unideal position globally.

Remember, divorced Barbie comes with all Ken’s accessories.

The succession movement is an American tradition, we started it when we signed the Declaration of Independence. The North Eastern states tried several different times to secede, and of course they were within their rights to leave if they chose. They tried to secede after the Louisiana Purchase, at the beginning of the war of 1812, then again during the war of 1812, and then in 1840, New York tried to secede from both the state and the union. We have always been nation/states and were a loosely organized confederation of nation/states for common defense and trade. Then came someone who said he was for succession. He stated that “Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements.”

He refused to see the delegates to discuss the national debt, ordered Major Anderson to abandon and burn Ft. Moultrie to go to Ft. Sumter, (an act of war), sent re-enforcements and supplies (an act of war), along with 8 war ships (an act of war), made war on civilians as a matter of policy, arrested tens of thousands without charge just like the NDAA bill does.

We fought a long hard war for our freedom and lost. We endured an occupation, that has never totally went away.

If we secede and establish the Constitution as our system of Government, we will regain what we lost back in 1865 and do away with the tyrannical government we now have.

If we secede we can ensure that we maintain our rights to bear arms and keep this tyrannical government from further eroding our rights.

I signed the Arizona secession petition. No, I am not really thinking Arizona should secede, it’s just a jab in the administration’s eye.

Mas,

I’ve not signed a petition to seccede. I swore to defend the Constitution.

With that said I WANT the Constitution back. I want it followed by the elite and the poor. I don’t see that happening and this last election was the coffin nail that shut freedom out of America and turned us to socialism.

I’m giving serious thought to immigrating to another country. Better a nation that has the kinks worked out that one in flux and going through growing pains as it delves in to socialism. There is a chasm that I don’t think can be bridged between the two Americas. Maybe if the rules were followed and we all played fair and followed the document some of us swore to uphold I wouldn’t be considering the things I am.

I haven’t fully made up my mind yet so I’ll keep defending. Lord, I want my country back and the beloved document to be followed. I’m tired of lies, cheating, and disregard of the law.

Vince

Each side threatens to leave the country by secession or moving to Canada or whatever if the other side wins. Infantile. Let’s spend some time working on getting along. The people to whom we d to speak aren’t the ones with whom we already agree – they’re the ones we want to bring over to our side on any issue – such as gun rights. Speaking of gun rights, there already are a number of Senators and Congresspersons in each party who support gun rights. There are others who are afraid to oppose us, so they don’t. We only need to persuade some – not all, but some of the others to look at it our way. That won’t happen by threats either to leave the country or secede. It won’t happen by being “in their faces”. It will happen by asking only to have the time to express your thoughts. The voice of reason favors our side. We need to educate – not only officials, but all people. We can’t win by meeting their anti-gun bigotry with name calling. Only continuing, unrelenting public education will bring reason to the discussion – and success to our cause.

If the result is important to us – and obviously, it is – let’s do what works, rather than what feels good. Frankly, I think that the public is coming our way. We can continue that. Let’s not screw it up.

I don’t think much of this stuff. It’s Peeing into the wind. I wonder how many signers didn’t even vote? Or laid down a protest vote for some 3rd party candidate?

How many of them will show up if we ever have to take on our own government?

Look, our soldiers are still tough enough to accomplish what we tell them to. But the rest of the nation?

The majority have gone soft and squishy. Immoral and lazy.Crude and stupid.

It going to take a massively negative series of events to prove to them that the government can’t protect, feed, house, employ, or heal them, in order that their basic mindset changes. Or they simply perish in such circumstances, along with many of their polar opposites caught up in the storm.

It’s coming. Like it or not. Our useless government will collapse under it’s own dead weight and corruption. I would like to think that there will be a restoration on the other side, of the constitution, the republic, and viable value system where in there ARE wrongs, an not just rights.

I think civil disobedience would be better than secession. Unconstitutional laws are null and void, so why do we obey them? Because we are scared.

All we need is for some governors to stand up to the Federal government, and be supported by a majority of their citizens. Jan Brewer did pretty well. We should follow the Constitution, no matter what the law says. Border states should police their own borders. Let the administration pass a new assault weapons ban, then we should ignore it.

Do you want to see civil disobedience in action? Look at the states saying marijuana is OK, while the federal laws say it is not.

The problem is government should be changed by the voters, but the voters are too stupid and selfish to shrink the federal government.

I hope we never have to use force in order to bind the government down with the chains of the Constitution, but I want to point out two obvious things to remember about force:

1) The lesson we learn from Viet Nam and our various wars in the Middle East is that the American military is incapable of winning a guerilla war.

2) Remember how the D.C. snipers paralyzed MD and VA for three weeks in 2002? Now imagine what 50 or 100 snipers spread over the fifty states could do? They could paralyze most of the nation.

Read books by Bevin Alexander and Sun Tzu. Yes, I am a dreamer. But I want to be ready for any emergency.

I think the petitions are mainly a protest. I would love to see us govern by the Constitution again though.

Won’t go anywhere, but sends a VERY IMPORTANT message to this administration that they do NOT have a mandate to continue to trash this country through executive order while ignoring the Constitution.

Also how can the war of northern aggression be called a civil war since the South never attempted to overthrow the existing government and rule, we just wanted to secede and to be left alone.

I have no interest in signing up for a .gov account to then land on the radar of .gov
I believe these petitions are a data mining operation. Secession in .govs eyes has been legally interpreted as sedition and treason. This makes you someone who is actively seeking to overthrow .gov which i believe disqualifies you from owning a gun and will likely lead to gun confiscation.

While I support the basic idea this is what I fear. The states that truly want and would secseed don’t like how the country is going to the far left. But I would be just as unhappy if we were going to the far right. Now if said state was truly returning to the constitution I might just join.

There’s been talk here in Texas for, in all likelihood, eternity, of secession, and Governor Perry didn’t start it. Personally, I’m all for it, and would love for us to tell the administration currently occupying our White House to shove it. Texas has a budget surplus and is the 15th largest economy in the world. What we don’t have isn’t much, and we can afford to either make or buy the rest.

The White House put up the petition page on their website. Somebody found it and posted the secession petition, a lot of other people followed suit after it hit the news.
Obviously it carrys zero weight, it’s a lark, a hoot. It’s people venting their spleen but could you find a thousand serious people behind the signers? I doubt it, most people, I hope, know it is no more serious than playing on-line games or posting opinions on a on-line news story, or blog :<).
If sucession ever happens it will be through the state houses not the White House web site.

Well… if all 50 states have a petition to secede… what would that leave the Fed gov’t?? DC? It is as if the country wants to turn itself inside out… or perhaps remove an irritant.

Though I doubt it will happen, what these petitions are, are a direct message to the Federal Government – that there are a lot of people who do not support the current policies. These people are aware that their interests are not represented. These people are aware that their freedoms – as granted in the constitution – are being abridged by current policies. And that fancy words don’t fool us.

It is a protest… and maybe a roll call, too.

I’m not signing any secession petitions; I’m on enough lists as it is with my being a white, male, Christian, heterosexual, retired combat arms soldier. (Isn’t that right, Secretary Napolitano?) I’ll just be over in the corner loading Mini-14 magazines.

ECS

@5Minutes:

“Secession is legally impossible in some states” – That’s hilarious. That’s about as sensible as “jumbo shrimp”, “army intelligence”, or “international law”. Secession, by definition, is saying “we’re sick and tired of your laws, so we’re out of here.” Of course those who don’t want secession would say “it’s illegal”. But that’s so completely irrelevant.

@Sean D Sorrentino on Nov 17,

Asking for the Constitution back and telling the others to run off and do their little unconstitutional socialist experiment is EXACTLY the same thing (just a semantic game) as secession.

@Simple Man Nov 19,

A little tinfoil perhaps, but probably mostly true. I know of people with security clearances that have been warned by their employers not to sign the petitions for fear of losing their clearances.

My take? These petitions are just “steam” as others put it, but it’s an indication that the nation is probably at its most divided position that it has been in at least our lifetimes.

If that “steam” isn’t allowed to blow off from time to time, the pressure will build and a rather ballistic event is likely to occur. So, it’s best for all of us that a little “steam” gets blown off without issue and that those in .gov back off any additional pressure from outside the pressure cooker.

I’m sure it was someones bright, protest idea but posting it on the White House web sight just isn’t too smart. Just my opinion but if you really want the Feds breathing down your neck just hack off the Chicago polititions. I’d really like to know how many of those signers have their tax returns audited next year. Keep your mouth shut and buy trade goods for the coming meltdown, like ammo. You can always trade bullits for freedom. Just saying!!

Agree with others it is a way to let off steam. Concern is that the nation isn’t one people who one year are a bit to the right of center, another year a bit left of center. Instead it is a nation of two peoples, with more distance between them every year. Not a good thing. A fire that Barry Obama has only poured gasoline on.

Regarding those claiming that red states are subsidized by blue states, hogwash. Real wealth is made by harvesting natural resources (oil, mining, timber, etc), growing something to eat (agriculture), or by taking raw materials and making something out of them (manufacturing). Those are red state activities. Banking and financial industries, i.e., blue states, are expensive overhead activities where a few get rich and where everyone gets poor when they get bailed out. Fed loans money at 1% to a New York bank, bank buys Treasury bills at 3%. Bankers walk away with million dollar bonuses. Money supply increases, inflated money steals from everyone else.

Yeah, we can do without those “subsidies”.

Welfare is the new plantation by the new masters, vote for your masters and you can stay in shoddy housing and have food stamps. And Obama phones. Loose that “subsidy”? Good.

Not taxing something, be it oil exploration or anything else, is not a subsidy. The Fed government makes more money off of oil than oil companies do. What subsidy?

What this country really needs is a constitutional amendment banning any wealth transfer from one citizen to another. That would do away with sugar daddies buying votes, and the political incentive to heard people onto the welfare reservations. Any welfare ought to be driven by private concerns or at most at the state levels.

The WH is collecting a list and checking it twice… they’re gonna come visit you.