READING EVIDENTIARY VIDEOS: Point #1

Mas, I hate the disembodied web for carrying on a conversation. So many times what you say gets all screwed up. You are right. Let me apologize for what I said if you read it as regards specifically to Guerena. I haven’t digested all the detail on that yet. I was being more generic, wrapped up in the Dept of Ed raid (it is Orwellian to even be putting those words together – Dept of Ed raid).

Look I am probably the most mild mannered guy on the block. I want everyone to go home at nite. I also want to be left alone and feel safe in my home.

Here is my point. I fear the police breaking down my door on some drug addled tipster who got the address wrong or some unpaid bill. In the middle of the nite in my neighborhood it is highly likely I am grabbing a firearm and putting myself between wife/kids and the “danger”. So that makes me a dead man. Yes I know about how on a raid police are supposed to announce themselves. I also know reality Mas. I know that from the time some guy mumbles something outside my house to when the door gets pounded is like 4 milliseconds. With my windows closed, air conditioners on, there have been car accidents right outside my window I haven’t heard. Ok so all I hear is crash and screaming. I’m a dead man then. That makes me sick to my stomach. It makes me sad. It puts you into the Kobayashi Maru scenario for Star Trek fans. No win.

I don’t have a grudge against the police whoever they are. I worked in LE for several years. I know how flawed people are also. Police are no different. Add poor training, poor screening of applicants, poor monitoring, poor management, corruption. I left LE cause of what I saw. Put that together with the Colin Powell Doctrine of policing and you have trouble. That is what I am seeing.

For the civilian there is no good solution. Long ago I realized that the power of the state is overwhelming. All the bluster is meaningless. The state can just keep pumping more bodies into the situation. More guns. More of everything until they win. Remember the Philadelphia situation when the police literally dropped a bomb on the house of some cretins? The state will always win and there is no recourse. And that results in a deep frustration. That is what I am hearing in the hundreds of posts you’ve received.

Mas, Not being a trained lawman I can’t say how I how I would react in that stituation. Being a two tour, twice wounded Vietnam Veteran I can tell you that if I’m in a dark hallway trying to make a legal arrest and the suspect raises his weapon I’m through talking. I plan on going home to my family at the end of shift. God Bless you and all the others that do the work that must be done.

Cantrell

Mas – with all due respect ( respect for you, not for the armed thugs with badges to whom I referred as TWAT teams) – you seem to overlook one key factor. You said, yeah, mistakes were made, we all make mistakes. But – if I screw up, one of my clients gets PO’d, maybe I lose an account, or a sale. If my staff screws up, there will be a reprimand or even an ass chewing depending. When sadistic bastards with military equipment ‘make a mistake’, they leave corpses, orphans, widows, traumatized children in their wake. Do you see a difference?
When I lose a client, no children grow up with the imprinted memory of their little dog screaming as its blood spurts across the carpet while nazi-dressed cowards stormtroop in with HKs waving in all directions; when my salespeople screw up, no woman stands at a graveside watching her husband being lowered into a hole.
Can you imagine just how wonderful an image these people have, of the uniform wearing scum who made a ‘little mistake’ and destroyed their lives? Can you imagine the contempt and loathing that they will have toward cops afterward?

Add to that the fact that the cops will never be condemned by other cops; they will typically get a free pass. Maybe desk duty for a while. Maybe suspension with pay. But they see themselves as far above the law and above accountability. What ever happened to Lon Horihuchi? Remember him? After murdering a woman holding her baby in a doorway, how did the LEOs react? Ho hum. He never served a day in prison. “Waco Jim” Cavanaugh? How much time did he serve for his part in murder and coverup? Oh, right… none.

Now if I shot a woman dead in her doorway, or shot her teenage son as he went to rescue his dog, whom I had also shot, would I get a free pass and a pat on the back? We know the answer.
Ironically, before Ruby ridge and Waco I was all out pro-LEO. But after seeing their actions since then, no respect for them at all.
You don’t have to print this, I know it is long and rambling, but I did at least want you to know that these are not the random thoughts of a hothead. Two tours in SE Asia and 40 years in managing a business have taught me not to make snap judgments. But they also taught me not to turn a blind eye to the madness of paramilitary death squads like those I’ve witnessed in other countries. Just because the badge is different, the utter corruption and immorality are still the same.
I’ll shut up now. and wish you the best.

Mike, thanks for your reasoned response.

Kobayashi Maru about covers it. There can be the situation where two good guys find themselves at cross purposes, neither realizing the other might not be a bad guy. We see it in “blue on blue” shootings every year.

There are lessons in the “blue on blue” shootings that translate to armed citizens confronting police. I go into them in depth in classes, and should probably do so here.

best,
Mas

@@ F Cantrell – First, God bless you for your service, and Semper Fi.

You said- “I can tell you that if I’m in a dark hallway trying to make a legal arrest and the suspect raises his weapon I’m through talking. ”

But now – to look at your statement from the other direction – what if you are the one coming out of your bedroom and into your own hallway, when a few masked guys just smash the door off the frame and enter with THEIR weapons pointed at YOU…. what do YOU do? Take the time to ask for ID? Hope it is not a drugged up home invasion team wearing those cheap ‘raid jackets’ you can buy online for twenty bucks – and that they are not going to shoot you dead then rape your wife or kids before slitting throats?

Just sayin’.

Mas,

Just a curt and simple question for you with no commentary or remarks so as not to distract from the question. After reading all 103 comments posted here so far, as well as many other posts and commentary elsewhere I really would like your answer to the following question:

Is the life of a police officer more valuable than that of a citizen?

Long Island Mike, if you had gotten the jest of my earlier blog you would see that the only solution against the power of the state is the power of the people. The problem in this country is that the people have become too apathetic. Everybody is to worried about themselves and there is no sound unity of purpose. Can you imagine a grass roots movement that encompasses multiple millions of people with one thing in mind? The people can take back their government and bring an end to these mistrusts. I do not mean violent takeover either. I mean the assembly of political power and pressure that refuses to accept Washington as usual. If the government tried to violently smash the peaceful will of the people it would be their undoing. It is called the second amendment. My friend we can talk about Tuscon Arizona and police tactics all we want, and it changes nothing. I appear like someone who is speaking off topic, or someone who has a political agenda that I am trying to force into the conversation. Anyone who thinks that is missing my point big time. I am not anti government, I am just for government that is for and by the people. Any element that exists in government that does not have this should be changed. Otherwise we will endlessly wander in these debates that display frustrations, but accomplish nothing in the real world. Mister Ayoob, I know you are a defender of American liberties including the right to free speech and the right to bear arms. This blog seems to prove that. There are far to many people here mistrusting the police and government for it to be just a cop hating trend. The police should be viewed as the defenders of our liberties on the civil and national level much like the military should be on the international level. Just tell me what has gone wrong in this country that this does not seem to be happening in the minds of people. Is it the media focusing on the bad police incidents more than the good ones? Is it the focusing of shootings that make armed citizens look untrustworthy in the public eye? The police cannot trust what they run into in the public because they fear it might be a nut with a gun. The public do not trust the police because there is far more emphasis on bad incidents than good ones. The so called militarization of the police then becomes viewed as something to be used against the public instead of for the public protection. The public and the police must be on the same side in a free society. The minute men of early America were citizens. Police are also citizens. The military are citizens. The government is made up of citizens. A free society is therefore judged by the union between these groups , or the division between them. I am seeing more division than unity. What does that say about the current foundation of our freedoms? A pretty house cannot withstand the storm without a good foundation no matter how pretty it looks. Iran, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc. we are seeing extreme examples of such a division between the public and police/ military/ government. I know our complacency says it cannot happen in America. Gradually generation by generation I believe we are seeing the beginning of such an erosion. Someday our national identity may be swallowed up altogether by the monster of globalism. Then our worst fears will become realized. The lack of unity on this site saddens me, because I think it is reflective of our nation as a whole. It is no longer healthy debate, it is downright division with the lack of moral will to reverse it. Healthy debate is what made us strong. The gradualism of division will someday destroy us, and nobody seems to believe it enough to even address it here.

I’ve heard that it’s kind of hard to dispose of bales of marijuana. At least I couldn’t flush a bale of hay down my toilet very easily.

MAs: “They could have asked him nicely, but had he refused, he would have been in a position where he could have phoned those at the premises and had them destroy the evidence the police had the warrant to search for, along with other undesirable possibilities. ”

You are over-complicating it. You don’t have to arrest him or even make contact with him, you just need to know where he is. For example, you could have someone wait for him to drive into the parking lot at work, then serve the warrant. Most people working hourly blue collar jobs reliably arrive at work (and leave) at the same time every day.

Mr Ayoob,
my father taught me that oftentimes what finally causes a fight isn’t always the root cause. I think that is what you are seeing on this subject. I think reasonable folks are so frustrated with the way the government and law enforcement in particular have been behaving that this just set them off.

I live in Pima County Arizona. It’s been pretty rough here the last few years . We are overrun with illegal aliens, drug smugglers and the associated crime. In response LE precence has been increased. We have ICE agents all over. Road blocks are routine. People feel intimidated and harassed from both sides. Home invasions are common. Couple all this with a bad economy and folks are on edge.

Those of you in the east may read about this incident and think, “this guy was into drugs. He had it coming.” Those of us on the ground out here think, “that could have been me.”

There has to be a better way. No man deserves to die the way this man did.

Mas,

this was not a “blue on blue” shooting. “Blue on blue” assumes the sides are equally responsible for making sure people are safe.

Guerena was not in the field, he was at home. He had no responsibility to prevent “blue on blue” situation. He had no responsibility to make sure an innocent person does not die.

And, I have to remind you yet again, – he was the only one who DID make sure that an innocent people did not die. He safed his rifle, – and he did not take it off safety and he did not shoot.

In a situation where his only responsibility was the defense of his own home, – he made sure not to kill the idiots, who were storming it.

I agree with you that it was not murder. But criminal negligence it was. I think we should do away with a notion of immunity in the cases like this.

It’s pretty simple, – we are always saying things like “it is better a guilty to go free than to put in prison an innocent man”. Well, this same principle means, – police MUST make sure that they do not shoot an innocent man. A mistake may be excusable when there is an unplanned encounter with no chance to gather information and split seconds to make a decision. But not in this case.

“How about a TWAT team breaking down a man’s door, holding im ( in his ripped up underwear) in a car for six hours, scaring his children – all at six in the morning – because his estranged wife who did not live there, had not paid a student loan.”

Read the UPDATE: that investigation wasn’t about a defaulted student loan – but about a criminal case.
Also, ask yourself about how the resident claimed he saw 15 officers – and the local police said only 1 had been sent with the Education Dept. people. Somewhere between 1 and 15, somebody’s lying; this sure doesn’t sound like an innocent mistake. And – being that no local police force has 15 officers to send to the home of everyone who just defaulted on a student loan in this economy – I think we know who that was.

Police need to be held to the same standards as ‘ordinary’ citizens. End of story. Legitimate acts of law enforcement? Fine.
Mistake?

If I make a mistake and kill a police officer, I suspect I’m going to experience something a bit more unpleasant than ‘departmental discipline’ or ‘administrative leave’ pending the outcome of the investigation.

Does anyone have any stats on the incarceration rate of police officers who ‘mistakenly’ kill innocent civilians, regardless of the situation?

Mas, the reason for the distrust and mistrust (and even what some have called ‘cop-hating’ here) is the deteriorating relationship between citizen and state (and the state’s enforcement arm, the police).

Yes, there are angry voices here. What shocks me more are the simplistic views of those who say they back the cops, or see this as a simple, cut-and-dried case of the ‘perp’ being 100% responsible for his untimely demise. Bullshit. You know what you’d do if you thought you were experiencing a home invasion. (Not that I know what was going through Guerena’s head, but that’s the most likely explanation, and Occam’s razor applies — until someone provides *solid* evidence that Guerena had mens rea, and wanted to off some cops.)

Based on what I can read here, the police ‘supporters’ seem to be implying (if not flat out stating) that the only action that you can take is to submit, even if you have no idea that the intruders are police performing legitimate duties. And that’s the problem. Because the pressure is on the citizen to roll over and just take it (even if a reasonable man would think his home was being invaded by a gang of criminals intent on doing him and his family harm).

And it’s this (apparent) black-and-white refusal to see the other side of things, this (apparent) mentality that as long as they have a warrant, as long as it’s ‘legal’, that the ‘good guys’ did no wrong, that’s the problem. “We’re just doing our jobs” doesn’t cut it, if you want to be on the right side of things.

If you wish to see that trust restored (and I know I do), I’m sorry to say, the police will have to start behaving differently even in the face of potential violence. Average citizens aren’t creating the hostile us-vs.-them atmosphere. Police tactics and violence are escalating in response to a perceived and real threat from a growing number of violent criminals.

But who and what creates the growing army of violent criminals?

The insane (yes, it is insane) and failed ‘war’ on drugs is the prime mover here. Our new ‘enemy’, domestic terrorism, is waiting in the wings to fill in should America come to its senses and end the war on drugs.

Police officers (and their chain of command) who support the ‘war on drugs’ are, at least in part, supporting the thing that is creating the growing distrust, the growing militarization of civilian police action. I find it hard to understand why police organizations and heads of police departments want to see this farce continued.

Sadly, I don’t see a simple solution.

Good luck to you all. We’re going to need it.

Another murder by cops. And Mas approves…

Mas, and how would you know that they all make even the local news? I know they don’t all make the national news.

Would you be comfortable with such SWAT activity at your house Mas?

It’s an easy question to answer. I know it’s a very telling question, that’s why I keep asking it.

Not answering it leads me to believe that you wouldn’t be. Why not?

Just a note to those saying Police should be held to similar standards as citizens. In terms of use of deadly force, we are pretty equal.

For those of you worried about home invasions, you still have a responsibility to positively ID the suspect if at all possible. What if it is a family member up late or a friend that had a key who dropped by? Maybe it is a repairman a family member or landlord called?

I’ll admit I’m still having problems with the whole “didn’t know it was Police”. Maybe there are some real good imitations but I keep thinking of really bad Halloween Costumes and that most people could tell the different from fake or real in a second or two.

@ No Threat-

Regarding genuine accidental shootings. I believe citizens and Police are judged pretty much equally. One case comes to mind is in Alaska an elderly gentleman shot a teenager who had come over for an unannounced visit. While I don’t recall all the details, the teenager entered the house without knocking or anything, slipped pass a dog, and had a ski mask on. While it was a terrible accident, the gentleman did not serve any time.

Having read a fair amount of Police and Citizen shootings, I don’t believe the badge influences the outcome. It’s usually differences in the circumstance that affect the outcomes in my opinion. Another difference is responsibilities, we as Citizens are not given the task of tracking down suspects, the Police are.

Mas, Something bigger is at work here. The sentament directed toward “authority” is simmering, and from this thread and other media type outlets it would seem that in the future it could easily come to a boil. It seems as though this is manifesting into “something”. What do you think ?

This whole thread is perfect illustration of why the general public is becoming more distrustful of the police.

The response of the police offers commenting including Mr. Ayoob seems to be that if you don’t submit, you die, and you deserve it regardless of the situation or the action of the police. If you question those actions, you are a police hater, a criminal, an idiot, or all the above.

Many of the non-police officers commenting seem to resort to name calling and have made the assumption that all police are evil and of course this stance isn’t helpful either.

So what is a non-criminal, armed home owner to take away from this situation? It scares the crap out me, because given the video I would also probably be dead. I have no reason to expect SWAT assault on my home, so if awakened from a dead sleep, I too would be hunkered down with a weapon trying to figure out what is going on in less than 1 minute. And I would probably be dead now, and many of the folks commenting on this would say I deserved it and all that matters is that the police went home alive.

I don’t have any answers, but it seems to me the more we militarize the police, and the more we rely on these types of tactics, the more mistakes will be made and the divide between citizen and police will grow.

I have just one thing to say, with all respect to Mas as an instructor and person-

“I was just following orders” didnt work at Nuremburg and it shouldn’t be allowed here…support your police if you want too, but stop supporting the murder of individuals by SWAT and police across the globe- INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, when SWAT/police are given the license via a SEARCH WARRANT, to be judge jury and executioner in a situation like this- something is wrong.

I am educated in the criminal justice system, I have college degrees, I have practical applicable experience, best of all I can and have done the research that shows this happens far more then it should…besides Mas and other supporters of Pima County, having actually BEEN to the house in question AT same time of day as the incident, SWAT could not have seen him fully and he them fully thanks to the sun- they FUBAR’d period…

Thus spake the LORD thy God:

“Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.”

“For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.”

The Department of Education sent a team of guys with machine guns to break his door down and seize a guy and his kids at gun point because of the inherently dangerous nature of college transcripts, letter of acceptance, notice of financial aid awards, high school diplomas, etc. You don’t believe me? Look at the warrant. Tell me what about this suggests that most reasonable way to serve this an armed team breaking down his door at 6am.

http://www.news10.net/news/pdf/Ed-dept-Wright-warrant-060711.pdf

Part II:
“Thou shalt do no murder.”

This is the only law that matters, Ayoob. Not self-justification and the Phariseeism of a corrupt state.

DO NOT FORGET: you shall answer (as will all killers and other sinners) on the terrible day of judgement when our Lord returns to judge the quick and the dead.

He will not credit you for a “clean” or “within department policy” kill.

May the LORD God almighty have mercy on your soul.

Matt,

“Also, ask yourself about how the resident claimed he saw 15 officers – and the local police said only 1 had been sent with the Education Dept. people.”

Stockton PD sent one officer with a squad car.

US Dept. of Education OIG sent over a dozen guys with shotguns and raid jackets and a battering ram. They weren’t using local cops to serve a federal warrant.

All I’m hearing here is the same thing I always hear from the so-called “pro-gun” community–Envy and jealousy because other men and women have worked hard and become police officers and now supposedly have it better than the carpers who could not make the grade due to background, education or physical fitness issues. The vast majority of America’s police officers do their job every day and every night, taking the bad guys off the street without thanks or credit, but when one news story blows up and one side–the criminal’s–comes out, then every cop-hating Walter Mitty jumps on the internet before the facts are even out, and all the more so if the criminal was someone who liked guns. Supposedly liking guns makes you automatically a good guy, and having a badge automatically makes you a bad guy in the eyes of the internet commando army. Well the reality is that criminals like guns too, and most police officers these days are better vetted and trained than the average gun-toting citizen. That doesn’t make them better people, but it shows that they had the good intentions and the ability to make it to the top of the hiring list and get through months of full-time training and even more field evaluations, something that I suspect that many here could never hack. I’m proud of the people that I serve with because I know how solid they are on and off the job. There’s a little thing called “honor” and another called “integrity”. You need those to be a cop, but sadly there’s no requirement that a person have either one in order to jump on the internet and start blathering.

Tomcat asks if how I’d feel about a SWAT team breaking down my door. It’s been answered before, but I’ll answer again: I wouldn’t like it one bit. (Duh.) And if there had been a siren blast and shouts of “police” and “warrant” I would damn sure hope I wasn’t pointing a gun at something I hadn’t positively identified as OTHER THAN law enforcement serving a warrant.

Of course, if I had previous arrests for drugs, or an illegal weapon charge, I would have all the more reason to believe it was in fact the police at my door, and not home invaders.

The Stockton matter does sound absurb on its face, but I’ll reserve judgment until I’ve heard the law enforcement side of why they felt a SWAT team was necessary. The whole “hear both sides before the rush to judgment” thing and all…

Whose life is more valuable? I answered that when they pinned the badge on me and I swore the oath to lay down my life if necessary to protect the innocent. However, the innocent and criminal suspects are not the same. Does anyone here seriously think they are?

Mas, thanks for at least answering the questions directed at you this time around.

As for “Proud Cop” here’s an alternate point of view to this comment posted by him when he said “that most of the haters and critics are either outside of law enforcement and ignorant of our ways, or else they are hostile to law enforcement due to prior arrests or an inability to become one of the finest.”

Become one of the finest…please!!! The reality is that most cops want to play Rambo without the REAL sacrifice; the dirt, hunger, thirst, sleeplessness, cold, heat, fatigue, exhaustion, loneliness, family separation, horror, and all around general misery that soldiers and Marines endure on a daily basis during both peace and war for a quarter of the pay of police. I constantly hear how stressful the job is in order to justify ever more money, perks, and benefits but the truth of the matter is that most cops have never even heard a shot fired in anger let alone had to deal with snipers, mortars, rockets, IEDs, ambushes or fire fights. The finest…give me a break! The finest are those who volunteer to serve their country for next to nothing and willingly put themselves in harm’s way without concern for their compensation package. I have served with the finest and boy let me tell you, NONE OF THEM WEAR BADGES! I would stand shoulder to shoulder with a combat vet over a cop any day of the week because they are men of honor, not finger-pointing blame-dodging whiners.

What cops want is the power to intimidate, coerce, bully, and shoot without anyone shooting back at them (that whole monopoly of force thing) so that they can make sure that they go home at the end of the shift. The “finest” huh? Can you say “self-inflated sense of importance.” I’d like to see “Proud Cop” and all of his type walk a mile in a soldier or Marine’s shoes and for their pay too without coming home for 12 to 15 months. I bet Mr. Finest would be sniveling like a little girl the first time he got lit up and couldn’t go home to mama to change his drawers.

You want to know why many of us vets no longer care for cops? The attitude exhibited in “Proud Cop’s” comment quoted above is a perfect example why. By the way, my record is as clean as fresh snow so your ad hominem about being a criminal doesn’t cut it here…but your attitude is just another reason to justify the contempt I have for your type of cop.

“All I’m hearing here is the same thing I always hear from the so-called “pro-gun” community–Envy and jealousy because other men and women have worked hard and become police officers and now supposedly have it better than the carpers who could not make the grade due to background, education or physical fitness issues.”

I’m on the side of judging the police in this incident as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (like the rest of us), and have been before this incident sparked the heated debates and flames here.

With that said, however, your comment here is WAY out of line. Some of us are not cops because that is not where our talents lie and we are happy with that. For you to assume that all the detractors are embittered wannabes who couldn’t hack it is taking things way too far.

You, as a participant in this debate have a responsibility to fairly represent both your side as well as not misrepresent the other side. Even when they engage in misrepresentation and other spills into emotionalism, that doesn’t mean you are free to do so. This applies to EVERYONE. Otherwise it’s going to be like those faux-debates on television where nothing is debated but all the talking points talked about. Debate is about each side presenting its case (either positively or negatively according to the debate topic), answering the other side, and then examining the other side.

I abjure ALL those who are serious about debating this topic to check themselves to see if they have been unfair towards the other side, and to present solid arguments, NOT emotional rants.

That is how civilized people used to go about debating in the past. Now, I wonder where civility and civilized discourse have gone. It sure isn’t here in american culture any more. Makes one wonder if this culture is even worth saving.

Welcome, James. Your call for civility is appreciated. My experience in this debate over the last few weeks is that some will heed it, and some will not.

“I also suspect that most of the haters and critics are either outside of law enforcement and ignorant of our ways, or else they are hostile to law enforcement due to prior arrests or an inability to become one of the finest.”

I agree with you Proud Cop. Think a problem for some people is just understanding of the how and the why. Any armed citizen who spends some time training, instantly gets a taste of what an Officer sees everyday. And that’s just the tactical side. That’s not considering the fine “customers” you guys have to deal with either…the one who felt speeding was okay because he was in a hurry…or the guy who just happened to be holding someone else’s property for them….

For the record Proud Cop, Pro-2A and Pro-LEO as well :p. Some of us 2A people will help out your brothers and sisters when they need it.

@James- Indeed a lot of emotions are flaring up and getting the better (worse?) of some people.

It is interesting how Mas and others continue to refer to the “suspect’s” “Of course, if I had previous arrests for drugs, or an illegal weapon charge, I would have all the more reason to believe it was in fact the police at my door, and not home invaders”

What is more interesting is they also fail to address the FACT that NO charges were kept, and he was cleared- wait, doesn’t that mean INNOCENT?

Mas- seriously, you are losing your Arizona support fast, and national support of everyone except copsuckers even faster.

Respond with something other then, but they were cops and were following orders/ had a right because they had a SEARCH warrant based on shaky evidence after TWENTY months/ they didnt know he worked nights (lol lol TWENTY MONTHS- in 24 hours I can get you more information on anyone in this nation then that useless police department obviously can.

Wake up, the respect I once afforded you is fast evaporating with every terrible argument you use Mas- as for the other cops/copsuckers who cannot see the VERY obvious wrongs being committed DAILY in this nation by cops “following orders-standard response for Nuremburgians” well I feel for you…as for being jealous, I enjoy being more intelligent, better trained and all around nicer then the jack boots that inhabit my corner of Arizona…

Oh and James, I have presented facts FACTS- Mas and his blue line supporters fail to respond…because there is NO response.

“Whose life is more valuable? I answered that when they pinned the badge on me and I swore the oath to lay down my life if necessary to protect the innocent. However, the innocent and criminal suspects are not the same. Does anyone here seriously think they are?”

If they are “criminal” suspects, aren’t they supposed to be “innocent until proven guilty?” What is a “criminal suspect?” You seem to be assuming that Mr. Guerena is guilty of something and that he deserved what he got. He had been arrested, sure, BUT NEVER CONVICTED. Except in your mind, Mas, except in your mind. Thanks for showing us all how you really think. We’re all just potential cop killers who must be guilty of something, after all why else would the police be there?

to Proud Cop, Your comment shows eliteism over the citizens you “protect” and serve. Guess what, we don’t all want to be cops. Some of us make a pretty good living in the private business sector and oh by the way, Alot of us are Army vets who can EASILY pass the background, psychological , phisical fitness and marksmanship quals. Your comment confirms what some of us believe, which is when you put on the badge, you look down on the citizenry. We are not all want- to- be’s.

The biggest problem I see is the identification of police. Mas, is it not entirely possible that, given that the man was asleep in a bedroom (which may not have any view of the driveway), that he did not have time to identify the police as police? If the video is accurate, there is not a lot of time between the initial siren and the firing. I just know that if I’m in my bedroom with the door closed, I’m lucky to hear my own doorbell half the time. No way could I have heard them identifying themselves.

Lee, you missed the point here. Mr. Guerena was not a suspect because he had been arrested in the past, and the matter dropped for whatever reason. He was a suspect because of the investigation that led to the search warrant in question. He was shot by police because he pointed a rifle at them as they attempted to serve that warrant. You claim to be a better person than the “jack boots” who inhabit your corner of Arizona…exactly how many of them do you know, enabling you to make that statement?

Cassierina, if you stop and think about it, every person ever shot by police — or armed citizens in self defense — had not yet been proven guilty in a court of law in the incident that forced the cop or the citizen to shoot them. By your standard, you would not be able to shoot your would-be rapist in self-defense until after he had been tried and convicted for rape. You ARE aware that the man in question was pointing a rifle at the police when they fired at him, are you not?

Mas’ argument regarding “suspects” was also used by Stalin and Mao.

The Torries used the same approach, when creating a long train of abuses. Then we constituted a government to protect our rights. We consider those rights to be inalienable and granted by God (not a privilege from some guy in a black robe or a blue suit).

History looks like this.

Mas, actually there isn’t any believable evidence or testimony yet presented that he “he pointed a rifle at them”. The cops who said he “he pointed a rifle at them” also said he fired at them. You may choose to believe the cops, I believe the physical evidence. Which is that the rifle was on safe and had not been fired. If your defense of the police story means you will ignore the physical evidence when it contradicts police then that says something about you that I was hoping was not true.

Heather “If the video is accurate, there is not a lot of time between the initial siren and the firing.”

Well, the police statement said that they spent over a minute giving verbal notification. Who are you going to believe, the police or your own lying eyes?

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_3a30b78e-3afa-5d62-bf4e-9b7fdc5f753c.html
“Deputy Kenneth Walsh was the officer who gave the commands for Guerena to come out of the house.

“Walsh told investigators he issued at least two sets of commands in English and Spanish before he and another officer were ordered to open the door.

“The order to open the door came during his third set of commands, he said.

“It took at least a minute to issue the commands before they knocked down the door, he said.”

“You may choose to believe the cops, I believe the physical evidence. Which is that the rifle was on safe and had not been fired.”

Honestly, I wouldn’t focus too much on the “on-safe” part. I can think of at least several other ways the safety could have been moved. If the rifle was on a sling, sometimes clothing can move the safety. When Guerena was shot, his hand could have jerked and moved the safety. Or before that Guerena just accidentally hit the safety when he didn’t mean to.

Another possibility is maybe once the incident was over, whoever was collecting evidence took pictures of the rifle where it was then collected it and placed it “on safe”for safety concerns. In a situation like that I don’t know what the normal procedure for forensics is. On one hand you’d have safety on the other hand you’d have unaltered evidence (but you could just as easily write in your report it was found off-safe and you placed it on-safe for transport etc).

After reading all of this as well as the posts by other bloggers (Especially Freeholder’s work @ http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/317393.php) That SWAT type entries should be cut back to the absolute minimum. They should be approved by a judge or maybe a senior police officer who knows his job is on the line if something goes wrong. The problem is that these raids are used when officers could avoid the whole problem, if they had been willing.
I am frightened by this case and others like it simply because that could be me dead on the floor of our house. The video shows inept Keystone Kops including one officer who appears to run forward and fire a handgun into the house right in front of the other officers face.
Had that been my home, two or more police would be dead. I would either be dead or in jail awaiting trial for killing police officers. Why? Because someone decided that instead of waiting until I and my wife had left the house (on a predictable schedule) they needed some hours in as SWAT.
SWAT type entries are insanely dangerous for homeowners (and their pets) and should be banned in all except the most egregious cases.
Mas, the point you and the other LEOs are making is that it was a good shoot. From a police standpoint I can see that. A man with a gun was spotted during the entry. case closed.
From a homeowners POV, it is insane that SWAT tactics were used and therefore the police killed a homeowner who was doing exactly what most homeowners would have done.
Both are right from their POV, and I don’t see a way to reconcile the difference.

Tim from Co: The fact that the safety was on doesn’t come from a photo. It comes from a press release on May 10 by PCSD where they reported that the safety was on and the rifle had not been fired and that their initial report that he had fired at officers was incorrect.
http://pimasheriff.org/bulletins/update-officer-involved-shooting/

Of course, the critical point isn’t that it was on safe, it is that it was unfired. Why is this critical? It’s critical because multiple members of the police SWAT team stated for the record that not only did he fire at him, they clearly saw the muzzle flash. As the weapon was not fired they were either lying or totally wrong about a really important fact. Whether lying or wrong, that was the most important fact of the entire event. If you can’t trust their statement on that you cannot trust anything else about the raid that they might say.

I would be quite interested in seeing more of the 1300 photos that PCSD released last week than the 12 or so that kgun9 showed, but not enough to drive to Tucson to get them. In particular, if his rifle was hit and where was it hit. I’m expecting that if it was hit there will be no impacts generally parallel to the barrel, as you would expect if someone fired 71 shots at a guy standing 20 feet away holding a rifle aimed at you.

Officers in Tucson SWAT shooting of ex-Marine cleared of wrongdoing

“The five SWAT officers who shot and killed 26-year-old Jose Guerena while serving a search warrant May 5, have been cleared of any wrongdoing.”

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/article_0b5f1624-961f-11e0-a6fd-001cc4c002e0.html

Apparently, this is what we can expect from now on. Commando cops senselessly raiding homes and shooting people that could have been picked up on the street without any violence…but what fun would that be.

“The five SWAT officers who shot and killed 26-year-old Jose Guerena while serving a search warrant May 5, have been cleared of any wrongdoing.”

And who was it that “investigated” the shooting ? …
{crickets chirping} ….
The Pima County Sheriff’s Office.

Look real surprised that they were cleared of any wrongdoing by their own investigators.
What was that term ? … conflict of interests? Yeah that’s the one.

This really needs an Independent Investigation by a “Civilian” investigation service.

Boy do I begin to dislike that word ….”civilian”.
Until the peace officers of this country [IF there are any left] refuse to use separatist terms like “civilian” and “Brother officers” there will continue to be a gulf between the people of the community and the Public Servants that we hired to patrol our streets. [Not to run our lives]
That “blue line” is separating the peace officers from their communities and that is exactly opposite to the original intention.

I highly recommend this to all. Especially those few peace officers still serving their public with respect.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/search?q=Chose+this+day+whom+you+will+serve

The killings(strike that) …..The reasonable and justified use of force will continue until attitudes improve.

Yep, you anti guys are right. The cops just randomly picked a house and decided to “Stormtroop” into it and kill a guy for absolutely no reason.

Oh wait, after convincing a judge there is probable cause for the warrant they go to the house and arrive with the siren blasting, the necessary knock and notice, the multiple shouting of “Police” then enter to find the greatest person in the world pointing a rifle at them.

You people who are anti LEO will always find some way to bash the cops no matter what they do. What a bunch of crap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx9Mt4krDtc&feature=player_embedded

I think a majority of the problem here is the “official reaction” being understated, or the offending cops being cleared by the “internal investigation”
Witness the video linked.
Kudos to the “partner” who told his side of the story even though it would bring harm to the PD.

“Until the investigation is complete, Jose Guerena should be considered innocent until proven guilty insofar as the drug and home invasion allegations…and the police who shot him should be considered innocent until proven guilty of having done so wrongfully.”

1. Mr Guerena is dead and a dead man can not be proven to be guilty.

2. The police are the police and they are in cahoots with the investigating authorities and are almost certain to be immune from prosecution. Your statement is as valid as saying “Stalin should be considered innocent until he is convicted of the alleged crimes.”

Your pro-cop bias shows that you Mr. Ayoob are corrupted by your membership in the power elite’s iron fist. Your argument is a complex strawman – you carefully picked and chose which arguments you argued against while ignoring the more substantial evidence that damns the cops involved. Your conflict of interest clearly prevents you from thinking clearly when the police are the ones accused of a crime.

If Mr. Guerena was innocent this raid was obviously unnecessary. If he was guilty of the alleged crimes then it would have been far more prudent not to raid him. Damn few people give armed resistance to the police once they know that they are surrounded by the police. Those that do can usually be waited out by holding siege where the police are behind cover and innocent bystanders are evacuated. The other far superior option as another commenter said is to wait for the suspect to leave the safety of their home. There is no need to try to go all Hollywood on criminal suspects. It must be fun to play the part of the bad ass paramilitary commandos, but it endangers everyone involved and leads us further into the totalitarian police state.

“(5) The body language and movement patterns of the officers are consistent with people in fear of their lives,”

Indeed, these men are cowards which is a dominant characteristic of the new breed of cops. They were heavily armed, heavily armored, vastly outnumbered their opponent, and had the element of surprise and they were still shitting their pants with fear. Why were they so afraid? It’s because they lack the courage and confidence that comes from knowing ones actions are moral, legal, and absolutely necessary. I see much bravado amongst the new stormtroopers, but I do not see any bravery.

@ RAG

“You people who are anti LEO will always find some way to bash the cops no matter what they do. ”

So long as the LEOs wage an illegal war against our inalienable rights of life, liberty, property, and the rule of law – then it won’t be very hard to find fault with their criminal actions.

All I can say is keep plugging Mr. Ayoob, all you do is not in vain even though sometimes it may seem like it.

I know full well how tough it is trying to move forward against the headwind of ignorance, prejudice and outright craziness some people have, but it has to be done, and these “comments” that pop up whenever you say anything about Law Enforcement are proof of it.

That doesn’t mean the people of the Republic have no right to criticize the people they pay to keep order, not only do they have they right, but it’s also a responsibility, but if you’re like me, you wish the people would do more to truly educate themselves about the issues, and then temper that knowledge with the understanding that OTHERS are actually doing what they are just talking about.

It saddens me to here all this talk of police state this and tyranny that from people who have no historical or even modern context. LE today is TAME compared to in the past, any serious student of American Criminal Justice knows this.

But fringe personality individuals (such as, sadly, some of the commenters here) NEED to think they are the good, righteous hero, and any Good Righteous Hero NEEDs an enemy and some injustices to rail against. The Government and it’s police are that enemy to them.

For sure their are people among the 850k LEOs in this country who should not be police. Their are whole bad Police Forces (which is bound to happen when a country has 18,000 Law Enforcement Agencies spread out across a country so incomprehensibly vast as the United States). But just once, just for a little while at least, I wish the majority of people would learn to to judge each LEO each agency, each situation itself individually.

But they can’t do that, prejudice requires a blanket……

The public release of helmet cam footage from one of the entry team members would do a lot more to clear up the situation than the helmet cam footage from an officer that never saw Mr. Guerena’s actions first hand. I’d reserve judgment until such footage is released.

And if it’s been available all this time but not released, that would be…an interesting choice on the part of the sheriff’s department, given that entry team helmet cam footage has been released before by other departments.

And the ignorant sheep just keep complaining and complaining… pathetic…