READING EVIDENTIARY VIDEOS: Point #1

Mas, do you think the cop that ran up on the left at around 40 seconds in and emptied his pistol into the house had a legitimate target that he could see (transitioning from bright sunlight to darkened house) and wasn’t just doing a “spray and pray?”

Infantry tactics lead to infantry results.

“Cops” you say? They don’t look like cops. They look like “Storm Troopers”
What required a full on assault with a minimal amount of time for the occupant to submit? I am not buying it Mr. Ayoob.
This was legal murder.

The issue I’d raise here not that they didn’t have a valid warrant (though the warrant is different interesting topic), it’s that the SWAT team looks like a joke. To be honest I think SWAT team isn’t the right phrase. Perhaps SWAT acquaintances? They acted like a bunch of randomly picked armed guys who all are wearing the same color gear. “Hey lets go meet up and go kick in some doors. Umm, Steve, how about you breach and Jack you want to take the shield today?”

It appears that they have never been trained or ever practiced. 4 guys wedged into the doorway, back-lighted? How long should an entire well trained team stand in a back-lit doorway? So it does seem to true to say they acted like a group of home invaders, not like the well-trained police tactical team that they claim to be.

The various statements of the team members also suggest some pretty serious issues.

To cite one rather obvious one, how they announced themselves, from an email I sent to the Star last night:

I don’t think that Deputy Kenneth Walsh’s statements here match the physical evidence:

‘Walsh told investigators he issued at least two sets of commands in English and Spanish before he and another officer were ordered to open the door.

‘The order to open the door came during his third set of commands, he said.

‘”It took at least a minute to issue the commands before they knocked down the door, he said.”‘

To look at the video, at 26 seconds it appears someone lightly knocked on the door.

Then they stood back.

At 29 to 31 seconds you can hear someone shout “police [unintelligible] warrant [unintelligible]’. Do you hear someone yell something similar in Spanish?

At 32 seconds someone starts to say that again, but before he can complete it…

At 33 seconds you can hear to door being forced open.

Even giving the most generous possible interpretation to the video, nobody gets out of the vehicle until about 5 seconds in and the door is broken open at 33 seconds. I do not think that it is possible that this took “at least a minute”.

I’m unclear that the time they waited was the amount of time legally required by the US 4th amendment, AZ law or the written policy of the PCSD. Could you or the Star clarify this?

Did their at most 8 second announcement comply with the law and the PCSD policy governing service of search warrants? Did their method of announcing comply with the law and PCSD policy governing service of search warrants?

What is the law and policy?

Home invasion squads in Arizona have been known to impersonate police. From within a home, what would you see? Mind you, this is in a home in a bad neighborhood, and your wife’s relatives have already experienced a home invasion. Armed men in some kind of uniform through the window. Then a brief siren. (Who can get sirens? Only police? Is it even a police siren, or a car alarm set off by being bumped by those people outside?) Somebody shouts something. Maybe you can make out the word “police”, but anyone can say that word. Then your door bursts open, and you see a black figure silhouetted against the bright Arizona sunlight. Before you can even take the safety off your rifle, the shooting starts.

I don’t see a good solution to this problem. If good people don’t defend themselves when they hear the word “police” or see a men in camo, then home invasion squads will have a high incentive to… wear camo and shout “police!” In fact, they already do. Bad guys won’t stop acting like cops, so maybe the good guys should stop acting like bad guys.

It worked for many, many years. These sorts of raids are a relatively recent invention. Maybe we should go back to those days again.

Mas,

1. The link to the search warrant affidavit is broken. The period at the end or the URL needs to be removed and then it works fine. I hope people take the time to read it.

2. The more evidence that is released, the more obvious it becomes that the decedent was certainly surrounded by criminal elements if not directly involved. If I read correctly, he had five prior felony arrests and was a suspect in an ICE investigation for drug smuggling. What’s the old saying about looking and sounding like a duck?

3. While I applaud your efforts to bring reason to the topic, I am worried that reason and evidence do not have a place with many of the people who have been most vocal on the incident.

There seems to be an number of citizens who are so disenchanted with the government, that ANY action taken by a government employee is seen as wrong, regardless of what evidence may exist. Whereas most of us are of a liberty midset, those screaming for the heads of these SWAT cops are much more akin to the butchers in the French Revolution than the Founding Fathers.

Again, thank you for a reasoned approach.

-Richard

I hope it is not the case, Mr. Ayoob, because I respect your opinion, but this looks like an attempt to defend an obviously unprofessional raid resulting in a likely case of excessive force (at the least, the add-on over the back pistol shooter.)

Nice break down of the incident Mas.

I can’t believe people were citing the “On-Safe” thing. Even wiki implied a loaded gun on-safe is “safe” and not a credible threat… well actually I can believe it. I recall in CA a knife wielding individual that was shot and the press was asking why didn’t the Police just shoot the knife out of his hand…

Hey it happens in Hollywood so it must be true right? TV or the Internet wouldn’t lie…

In all seriousness, any idea where the 71 shots came from Mas? Pretty sure I read 71 shots on a Police site as well. Maybe 71 was the shots fired? Or the Police site was just using the same “source” everyone else was?

Anytime I hear something on mainstream news, I take it with a bucket of salt. I knew someone in a self-defense incident and the news made it sound like the attacker was the actual victim. But just from hearing about the Guerena incident on mainstream made it sound like SWAT got the wrong address and Guerena was shot for no reason. Of course the warrant and AR involved were conveniently left out. Some mentioned “drugs” but none mentioned the home invasion. Checking actual news sites does wonders.

Thanks for the summary Mas!

Mas,

I have not seen anyone claiming that the police officers were evil. I saw claims that they were negligent. And this is a fair accusation.

You don’t think so?

Well, this is too bad. I do strongly believe that a police in this country has no right to apply military tactics without good solid evidence that they are facing well-armed opposition willing to do battle.

I have yet to see any in this case.

Now, note Guerena’s actions and contrast them with the actions of the police. He was the only one who acted highly professionally all the way – and take into account he was able to get it together moments after he was awaken. He hid his wife and kids first. He armed himself. And he never took his rifle off safety, – obviously not willing to shoot someone by accident.

It is impossible to claim that he knew he was facing police and had designs to shoot at them. If he did, – he would have taken the safety off. (Not just that. He could have harmed them very seriously. You of all people should be able to see that – just look at the tape and imagine yourself on the other side, and what you would be able to do in Guerena’s place with an M-16 if you wanted to – and the police were silhouetted like that in the door)

If police acted as professionally as he did, – he would have been alive now.

It doesn’t look like the best planned entry but we have to let the facts speak for themselves and not let the emotions get the best of us.

Regarding the “on-safe” claim, the first time I heard that mentioned was as a response to the police’s original statement that Mr. Guerena fired upon them first. I agree with the commenters here that a person has no way of knowing whether his assailant’s weapon is on-safe or not, and so that fact should not be relevant in the decision to shoot. The point was that the police’s original story did not match the facts of the case and was deserving of scrutiny.

Regarding not letting the EMTs on the scene until the scene was secured, the time I have heard passed around is something like an hour and fifteen minutes. I have no way of determining whether that claim is accurate, but if so, I don’t think the “securing the scene” argument holds water. If it takes a highly-trained SWAT team over an hour to clear and secure a small home, something’s wrong.

It’s my understanding that this was not a “no-knock” warrant. The police were obligated to identify themselves. They ran the siren, although when I heard it in the video, I didn’t know what it was, even with all the context I had going into the video. If I heard that siren coming from outside my house, I would assume it was a car alarm. Then, the police knocked on the door and announced themselves. Eight seconds later, they made entry. Is eight seconds, or 2-3 seconds if you assume that the person did not recognize the siren’s relevance, a reasonable amount of time to expect a person to answer the door?

A neighbor of mine once was arrested for stealing a car. (He apparently took it for a “test drive” and then never returned it.) I became aware of this when I heard, out the window of my townhome, a voice coming over a megaphone, “This is the Cobb County Police.” Now that was a clear and unambiguous announcement.

“Infantry tactics lead to infantry results.” -Fred

Our previous British government tried similar methods. How’d that work?
Did the ‘lesser privileged subjects’ sit still for military subjugation?

Consider how a warrant was served years ago…
Now a standing army of enforcers has been created in our midst.
What insanity has morphed America into such a viscious self destructive military prison camp?

Break out your Bastiat, Locke, Paine, Jefferson, and Solzheneitzen- to see where this invariably leads.

What a mass cluster puck on the part of the Dudley SWAT Team.

And leave to your high intelligence and gyrating loins to cite Wikipedia as a responsible source Mas.

And wow! Guilty by association! His family is involved in criminal activity, so he must also be too!

And remember everyone, if you hear a cop siren at any time, cringe in fear. It is probably the Dudley SWAT Team getting ready to tap on your door, meekly announce their presence, and cluster puck at your door capping off 71 shots in your direction after just being awakened by your wife (who tells you there is a armed man pointing a gun at her at the window) from a deep slumber after a few hours of hard work.

And remember, the warrant was not for Mr. Guerena … it was for his house and whatever they could … find … that may or may not indict Mr. Guerena or a family member in a crime. Nothing indicted Mr. Guerena in a crime.

They were SNIFFING. And ended up SNUFFING.

You are pathetic Mas. Pa-the-tic.

The Guerena Shooting: Initial Analysis
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/316833.php

Guerena’s wife Vanessa pleading for help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSXi6Oq49ro&feature=player_embedded

This wasn’t a highly trained SWAT Team, but a bunch of wannabee yahoo’s … on a fishing expedition.

Man up Mas.

considering the now dead guy just came home from a 12 hour shift at the local mine – couldn’t a day or two of surveillance/research have provided a much easier takedown as he exited his car dead exhausted from a long night at work? or if he was the determined “threat” just pick him up at work and escort him home for the warrant search.

it unfortunately seems to me too many swat teams look for reasons to do these type of entries. it is the “if all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail” mentality.

there will be a day when there will be a swat team that gets completely obliterated by some competent citizen when they attempt some bumbling entry like this. while the citizen will most likely still be killed by the sheer number against him/them – i expect there will eventually be mass casualties on the swat side that may be the final straw that makes departments stop and rethink the necessity of these kinds of entry tactics…

that or an event like that will be the final nail the anti-gunners (and the current administration) will use to outlaw citizens having firearms completely – all in the cause of making the country safer for armed police entries of course…

I too have trouble with the no-knock or restricted notice warrants.

I watched the video three times.

Assuming that this happened at 9:30 am in OUR home, In the time from the first announcement to the time the door was broken open, my wife literally would not yet have gotten to her bedroom door. She is moderately dis-abled and does not move fast.

By the time the first shots went off, she would be at the bedroom door with the double barreled 19 inch 20 gauge at low ready, and probably shouting “Stop or I’ll shoot!”

That’s the drill she’s been trained to. I assume that means that she would be dead.

There’s a pair of conflicting demands here. You can (although in this case they did not) do a low notice warrant on the wrong house.

You can do a low notice warrant on someone who is not guilty of anything you’re investigating, but you have a reasonable basis for the warrant. (as in this case)

And you can have a situation where if you serve a warrant “politely” the people inside can destroy evidence and arm themselves and shoot cops.

So, we take a chance of killing innocent citizens as a price for reducing the risk to the cops and a price for the better retention of evidence.

Mas, in your widely experianced opinion, have we made the correct balance choices? Are we careful ENOUGH that my wife doesn’t get shot while capturing enough of the bad guys?

That’s the problem many of us have with these tactics. It’s not that they’re “paramilitary” It’s not that they’re really all that much different than invasive warrent service has been for a half-century. It’s that, it FEELS like there is too much chance that innocents go down, and it’s certainly true that some have.

So, I ask again, do you think the balance is currently appropriate?

“Until the investigation is complete, Jose Guerena should be considered innocent until proven guilty insofar as the drug and home invasion allegations…and the police who shot him should be considered innocent until proven guilty of having done so wrongfully.”

Let’s do the same with the enforcers, as you suggest, and put them on trial. What are their names and home addreses? What are their complete professional and private histories? Which judge did not sign the warrant? What is his history? We already know the history of Dupnick. Let’s consider them innocent until proven guilty, in precisely the same way. Or did we previously hold them to a higher standard? [Mas asked us to consider them equal. I’m pointing out that he does no for one minute consider the victim equal to the perpetrators. It is a rectal cranial inversion to suppose that the perpetrators have special extra-legal rights, while the deceased only had the privileges of not yet being proven guilty.]

Turns out the enforcers are new age Pirates with a ‘letter of Marque’ authorizing theft, kidnap, and murder. Hessians, Huns, Mercenaries, hired to do this very thing. Or do you think every community suddenly needed militarized enforcers to defeat jihadis? In rural Iowa? In Arizona? In every county, everywhere? And given special emergency powers? This is a new national army of occupation.

And here’s the truth to the lie-

If Jose Guerena “was considered innocent until proven guilty”: Then an innocent man was executed without trial, on the spot, in his home. So when will we see the killers on trial?

Which makes my point: Murder of an innocent, presumed guilty.
Executed by mercenaries created for this very purpose.

I am an EMT and have had to wait for the Sheriff’s deputies to clear a scene with an active shooter. All three of my patients died before I could render any service. The time listed in the scenario is about the same as I experienced.

Mas as usual, your calm rational analysis set the record straight. I look forward to our next meeting.

I have just one question:

Would you feel safe with that SWAT team conducting operations in your neighborhood?

Would you feel safe if they raided your house?

People, stop making judgements…if this ends up a court issue, the courts will decide. What IS clear, is that there was several times the necessary PC for the cops to make the search. What went right, or wrong, in the execution of it has NOTHING to do with whether the cops had ample reason to go there and take the place down (they did). Not sure what some of your readers understand about probable cause Mas, but methinks some of them never heard the term. In any case, the fine upstanding citizens in the house will have their day in court. The cops should be afforded to same. Jack

Richard, link is fixed, thanks for the catch.

To those who say the siren sounds like a car alarm: that’s the “yelp mode” used at intersections, etc. because it has been deterined to be louder and more readily heard and recognized at close distances, as opposed to the “wail mode” that seems to carry farther, advantageous in, for example, high speed pursuits on highways. If anyone wants to seriously tell me that they, and Guerena took the police siren for a car alarm, please explain:

1. Why everyone gets out of the way when our patrol cars and the ambulances use it at intersections, and no one seems to mistake it for a car alarm THEN?
2. Why, if Mr. Guerena thought it was a car alarm IN HIS OWN DRIVEWAY he didn’t look out the window and see uniformed officers with police vehicles and flashing police lights, instead of grabbing his rifle and hunkering down inside?

For those who think a SWAT entry is overboard for a suspect known to be a combat-trained Marine, who has been arrested for weapon violation/drug possession in the past, if your son or daughter were cops, would you want THEM to politely knock on his door while wearing nothing more substantial than a business suit and carrying only a holstered snub-nose .38…the “old way” some of you want to return to?

Those who’ve gone from “the cops are murderers” to “we know more about tactics than the SWAT team” are free to send their resumes to the department in question and offer them your improved SWAT training. In any case, that’s not the issue here. You are free to send me videos of YOU reacting while a suspect points a loaded AR15 rifle at YOU, so we can sit at your feet and learn.

dsd, are you EVER going to read the testimony presented to the grand jury in the Las Vegas case, or the other materials that have been suggested to you, or are you too fixated on your “pirates” thing?

I can only say: “Pirates…Arrrrr….”

Boris, if you haven’t seen anyone calling the cops evil, you haven’t seen some of the links that have been sent here by critics and haters alike. (Yes, I do try to distinguish between those two categories.)

In just this comments page, you see folks calling the involved officers murderers. Murder is distinguished from manslaughter by the key ingredient of malice — evil intent. When you call someone a murderer, you’re calling him evil.

Azreel, you ask if I would feel safe with this SWAT team raiding my house. The point of raiding in force is to make those being raided feel so unsafe that they won’t attempt to kill the raiders. USUALLY, it works. It would be interesting if the authorities in Pima County could publish statistics on how many such raids they carry out that DON’T end in shooting, because those being raided are sufficiently intimidated to submit without bloodshed.

Sofa, you say “an innocent man was executed without trial.” No, a man pointing a loaded AR15 rifle at police who were performing their duties with a lawful warrant was predictably shot by said police. Those are facts that simply can’t be disputed by anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty.

Rick asks where do we find the balance? There are too many variables involved to answer that question. Each case is different. When you are the one who has to “go through the door” on criminal suspects, you will want every advantage on your side. When you are the law-abiding citizen protecting your home, you will want every advantage on YOUR side. We have to take each case on its specific merits with its own specific set of facts and circumstances, as we are doing in this case.

This is the same county sheriff (and SWAT team) that let Jared Laughner go seven times. So I think it IS reasonable to assume they are, at a minimum, incompetent. Going beyond that, the “militarization” of our police force has gone too far, plain and simple. For some reason, the argument is always made that the officer just wants to go home alive, but seldom does the citizen’s rights come into play. Why is that, Mas? Is it because it is assumed that the officer is of a higher moral character simply because he is police? I respect police very much, but most policing is now conducted with full-throttle military tactics in the name of their lives and not the “suspect”. I am actually surprised and saddened that you fell on the side of the issue you did.

Lawful warrant my arse. Funny how “lawful warrants” have metamorphosed over the years into more power for the State and the cops who serve it. Ya know, like like the original intent of the 1st., 2nd., and on through to the 10th amendment have metamorphosed over the years to become meaningless?

Face it Mas, you hate the constitution. But you sure do love it that way. Of course, you won’t admit it.

Curtis, come up from under the babble and Cope with reality, and explain yourself with specifics. Debate requires more than insult.

Tim, where did you get the idea that the SWAT team had anything to do with Laughner falling through the cracks of society and “the system”? Or that “most policing is now conducted with full throttle military tactics”? Tomorrow, count how many cops you see performing the routine tasks police have always performed in this society…and how many SWAT vans you see conducting raids. Feel free to get back to the rest of us here on that.

I’m open to debate on the issue. That’s why your comments are still here. But, in the name of reason, people…think before you post.

Mas, it is obvious that the problem here is a mistrust of governmental authority. There are a lot of voices in our society anymore who are pushing this agenda. Men like Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, and Jesse Ventura are three such examples. I think there is a healthy and an unhealthy mistrust of government. The revolving door between wall street and the government vs. main street is a healthy mistrust for the average citizen for example. The so- called assault weapons ban is another area. It is clear these anti gunners do not know or wish to speak the truth as to what an assault weapon really is. Unhealthy mistrust sees tyranny behind every action and intent without examining the facts. I heard a European spokesman state that he could not understand why Americans mistrust their government so much. My answer to him is America has never had an Adolf Hitler, Stalin, or Napoleon, and we do not want one. This is Healthy. We want our citizenry armed. Yes there are forces out there that want to limit our freedoms, but every police department is not necessarily a part of that. I blame our politicians and political machine much more than I do the police. I know many will say that the police are the arm of the government, but it is the policies that the police are forced to enforce that are the root of this problem. What are all the complainers doing to bring about a change in our society and politics? The police must do whatever it takes to end a potentially violent situation. This may require overwhelming force. The key is for the citizen to not put the police in such a situation. If the police are corrupt and breaking the law, then there have been more cases than not where the long arm of the legal system has fallen on police officers and departments. Yes some police do slip under the radar, but so does corrupt citizenry. We must take a stand against both such situations. Do not just blame the police, lets get to the root of this problem; a corrupt political system that devours politicians, military, police, and citizens alike. The love of money which corrupts and leads to all manners of evil.

Beware of judging an incident based solely on a video you see on the internet. Perspective is everything and something that cannot be known from just one video.

Want proof? Watch the video at the link below. If we were to judge from just the first camera shot we would all agree that the cops in the video were evil men who killed an innocent person. Then in comes camera number 2 and a whole new perspective…

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4780043034404553451#

Sure, cops over step their bounds and do bad things but it is the exception, not the rule. For those of you who believe all law enforcement is just waiting to trample your rights there is no amount of proof for you to the contrary and any little thing you find is just more proof that they’re all out to get you.

I couldn’t be a cop in today’s climate. The law is very clear on how I am to react but the people who make up jurys believe Hollywierd instead and expect you to shoot guns from peoples hands and have no fear when a loaded semiautomatic rifle is being pointed at you because of the huge red flag sticking up telling you the weapon is on safe and therefore couldn’t possibly be a threat.

Remind me again how many morons shoot themselves every year with unloaded weapons or shoot friend because they thought the safety was on?

Mas,

The SWAT team is part of the same organization run by Sheriff Dupnik (of “political vitriol” fame), and it always starts at the top.

As for the tactics, it used to be you would not be “proned-out” unless you made some sort of furtive gesture or ran. Now, simple car stops can entail proning. Perhaps “most” was a stretch, but certainly the tactics of the police have certainly gone beyond the 4th and 5th amendments original intent. I actually have a few LE friends who take great glee in the “broken license plate light” excuse to search a car or the profiling they use. They have just become smarter in their report writing.

Personally, I understand the need to profile at times – but this SWAT team’s tactics are what killed the Marine. I believe the Sheriff’s office even said it was his OWN team’s ND that caused the panic. These guys were not professional in the serving of the warrant. It just seems that a ten or 12 man SWAT team was overkill (pardon the pun) to serve that warrant. Maybe we should be looking at Judge who signed the warrant. Maybe the issue is larger than the police work being done. Patriot act anyone? At what point is sacrificing liberty in the name of security is enough?

Maybe this type of stuff has been happening longer than I realize. With YouTube’s and Internet’s proliferation of videos and quick-reaction news reporting, we are just now seeing it. I wish I could recall some of the other videos, but they are all out there on Youtube with the over-reaction of police. I believe one was a SW being served at 2 am and the owner of the home came out of a hallway, out of a dead sleep, with a golf club and was double-tapped. Sorry, there has to be a safer way to conduct these raids! Perhaps a little intelligence-gathering prior to the raid? But with cuts all over the US in LE, it seems the only budget we keep is the tactical units and not the community policing and detective work. Let’s just go in in force and shut them down quickly – if a few people are killed in the process, so be it.

I realize you will almost always come down on the side of LE, being one yourself and your cadre of friends, trainers and trainees are most-likely from the LE community. But I come from the perspective that our system was designed, largely, to set a guilty person free rather than send an innocent man to his death (the whole presumption of innocence thing). And I think if you extrapolate that out, the same should apply to, what appear, to be “auto-signature” signed warrants anymore.

In any case, I am still a fan of your books and training – we just disagree on this case (for now). Only time will tell who is actually right. But the system seems pretty rigged in favor of LE on this one already.

The warrant is interesting too, but I think the video is what is under discussion.

My understanding is that it was taken by the helmet cam of the team leader. Who appears for some reason to be sitting in the back seat of a police vehicle while the team made entry. Don’t most police vehicles have quite loud and effective PA systems? It would appear possible to make use of that. I know it has been done by other jurisdictions, as I’ve seen references to the use of a police PA system to provide 15 seconds of announcements be accepted as part of the valid way to provide notification by the federal courts.

This would seem like a much more successful approach to actually informing everyone inside that the police were outside than tapping on the door and shouting though a closed door from several feet away.

Did you hear the team identify themselves as police after forcing the door? I did not. It would appear logical that the occupants would be much more likely to hear and understand police announcements once the door was open.

We certainly know that multiple members of the swat team said they clearly saw Guerena shoot at them. We also know that these statements fail to match the physical evidence.

We know that the statements of how the team provided notification fail to match the video evidence.

At this point I would suggest that an other statements by the SWAT team that are not supported by physical or video evidence by considered as highly questionable.

I would further suggest that the video shows an untrained and poorly lead team behaving in a totally casual and undisciplined manner. Their shooting skills and judgement, as shown by the multiple rounds fired into the door frame, multiple officers shooting themselves dry, officers shooting into at least two other residences (at least some bullets appear to have exited the back of the residence at or above 7 feet high), and the one-handed blind fire, appear far from the expert and well-controlled fire that is typically expected of a specialized tactical team.

Mas: “Why, if Mr. Guerena thought it was a car alarm IN HIS OWN DRIVEWAY he didn’t look out the window and see uniformed officers with police vehicles and flashing police lights, instead of grabbing his rifle and hunkering down inside?”

My impression from his wife’s statements is that Jose Guerena could not see what was going on his driveway because 1) he was asleep until his wife woke him up when she heard a loud noise in her house and saw people entering and 2) he was running to the front of the house to see what was going on when he was shot. I don’t know of any contradictory evidence, do you?

What I images I have seen of the house would appear to have the bedrooms in the back with some sort of living room in the front. I’ve never seen a floor plan, have you? I would expect that a competent and well trained tactical team would have obtained a floor plan, hence I expect that this team did not and so it isn’t in the documents released.

Mas,

On the original point of interpretation of the video: It clearly refutes several/most of the allegations against the police involved in the raid. However, it creates questions about the tactics used.
My take: 1) siren on from 6 to 11 seconds with unintelligible talk 2) as siren ends “move out…do it” 3) officers approach door and take position, one says “bang, bang, bang” 4) breaching hammer is visible 28 seconds and an officer tries door 5) 33 seconds door is breached and officer moves back 6) officers enter, nothing is said, first shot occurs at 40 seconds followed by 6 more from the same gun 7) multiple shots fired as entering officer crouches or falls 8) 42 seconds officer says stay close..the floor (door?) come on out here.

What I’m missing is the announcement of the warrant and I think this is important since there was no mention of this being a no-knock service of the warrant. I did read the warrant and it seemed reasonable under the circumstances if no-knock language was there, either asking for it or obtaining it, I missed it.

Also, if you pull up the sound in an editable format you can count the shots and distinguish the signatures of several weapons. The first 7 were most likely fired by the same gun. The reports of 60 or 70 shots with 22 hits seems reasonable.

The bottom line is that this incident is scary as hell to me in two ways.

First my son is a deputy and routinely serves warrants “the old way” and the new. I don’t envy him. Do I think he will try his best; definitely. Do I think he will make mistakes; definitely.

Secondly, I recently served on a jury trial where one of the officers lied (and was subsequently disciplined) in order to obtain the warrant. The warrant on the apartment was determined by the jury to be illegal. It didn’t leave me with a good feeling about the system by which warrants are issued and served. With in a couple of months of this, my wife and I had an attempted home invasion. I was able to convince the fellow kicking in my door that he should prone out on the porch and wait for the police rather than me shooting him. No shots were fired and he was arrested. (I thank the many of you who have written about the use of cellphones, flashlights and establishing communication with responding officers.)

One comment I did want to make at the beginning of the original blog was about the change in police officers at shooting events. Thirty years ago I shot bullseye competition with many police officers and found it very pleasant and informative to talk to them. I don’t shoot competitively anymore but at the range there seems to be much more an “us” and “the rest of you” attitude. I don’t understand this change but I’m not the only one to notice it. Its certainly not good PR.

Keep on writing away. I always enjoy and learn from your columns and blogs.

Mas, I’m just curious about SWAT, or any sector of law enforcement, wearing masks to obscure their identity. What’s the deal?

BRAVO Mas! I think that many on here would tell you that you had just shown them a pink elephant when it was actually gray. I challange anyone of these gun experts to stare down the barrel of my AK from 25 to 30 feet and tell me if the safety is on or off. As a LEO I will tell them this, I will do everything possible to come home to my family. You point a gun at me I will only tell you once! This individual paid his nickle and went for the ride…

mas says
“I’m open to debate on the issue. That’s why your comments are still here. But, in the name of reason, people…think before you post.”

no you are not – you cherry pick the tinniest small segment of any reply that you may be able to wiggle in – the rest you completely ignore. just like these increasingly dangerous tactics ignore the “innocent until proven guilty” part of our law.

if they did determine this guy to be “dangerous” as you and others are so afraid of – then there are far better ways to search his house then they chose as their “best” option. as suggested pick him up while at work! (i’ll add the crickets sound here for you mas…)

there are multiple better scenarios for approaching a potentially dangerous suspect – duh! these are wannabe tough guys that want to invent reasons to play super SWAT cop. – sounds just like our current administration and DHS… gasp! a trained military veteran! well golly heez gotsta be dangerus to us – weez betta protects us! gosh golly! the safety of the officer is so important (the citizen, eh not so much…) lets make sure they all get to go home after executing someone and then courts will decide after the fact if he was indeed dangerous. (wink, nudge…)

mas also says

“Those are facts that simply can’t be disputed by anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty.”

i guess this is why you ignore so much of the replies – as you can’t seem to dispute the overwhelming facts with a shred of intellectual honesty. smile and denial – that’s a good boy!

you said it yourself yet again

“Debate requires more than insult.”

yet you ignore most chance to debate, stick to your story and that’s it – like you were “trained” – won’t even put in print that there could have been a better way – just smile and nod mas, good job! then stoop to insults – you are exactly what you attack as juvenile. cherry pick and insult with babble… “arrrgh! mas” ha! what a joke…

i LOVE it hearing how this guy will get his day in court by these people here… i can only hope they get assaulted in the same way.

this guy is dead. so lets see how much it helps if they don’t convict him… oh and the police have never lied to cover their asses after such an blunder right? sealing the warrant a few days AFTER the raid? seems SOP to CYA. they will bury him so deep in manufactured charges that any normal human would probably choose death over fighting it… i guess the case is already settled then right? (wink, nudge)

even IF this guy was guilty… this was a complete travesty of our legal system. any idiot like that SWAT wannabe who runs up to a pack of active shooters and gangsta style shoots a few from his handgun ” to get in the “me too” of the action should be exiled from the force. instead it’s go home and get your medals boys!

i wish someone could role play this at mas’ house (with airsoft) and see how he fares- run a siren for a few seconds outside while mas is sleeping, meekly knock then 8 seconds later kick the door in and start shooting… you think you’d survive mas?

i know it would take me about 10 seconds to get to the front door from nearly anywhere my house – hearing the siren from further back then anywhere else but the front door or window would not indicate it was at my residence – guess i’m guilty then right?

frequently i hear sirens go by here and can’t tell if they are on my street of the next one over or just passing by – the sound bounces around off buildings and trees etc – so if i went to investigate and walked into a doorway stuffed with armed guys – yeah i’d probably pull my CCW gun too – as i would not know what was going on… (gasp! i exercise my second amendment! i must be guilty if i carry a gun – why else would i need one?!?) oops! guess i’m guilty – so then execute me on the spot so they can look justified and we’ll let the courts figure out i was innocent later… phew!

mas, you are a shill is all you are. not even once have you dared comment against “your” side. (and it is beyond obvious you have a side) so much for no intellectual bias.

how about at the very least a comment on their pathetic fatal funnel tactics mas? probably perfect in your eyes right? some new super secret cops only speciality ninja tactics!!! arrrrghhhh, corrrrect matey!

The initial reports I heard from the media gave me a bad feeling about the incident. Knowing the media gets it wrong so often, especially with rapidly evolving incidents, I am happy to see that the PC was a lot more solid than initially indicated by the media.

I am sure there is a lot of room for disagreement on the methodology of using SWAT for routine search warrants, even warrants for someone known to be armed in the past. Even so I do not believe this incident is nearly as bad as originaly reported. It reminds me of the Diallo incident that looked so bad in the media until you read the “rest of the story” that came out after the trial.

Bottom line a legitimate warrant was met by perceived force and the ensuing onesided firefight killed a person that might have been innocent of criminal wrongdoing. Sad but understandable. I hope it does not happen again but I fear it will.

From the last articles and now this, Mas. has clearly lost his objectivity. He will make any excuse for those in blue. He can’t not see evil at all. Well not everyone in blue is a good person. If fact German found out those in uniform can end up being very oppressive.

“Rick asks where do we find the balance? There are too many variables involved to answer that question. Each case is different.”

Mas, you are uncharacteristically dodging the question. Yet you have already, in so many words, come up with the same answer that Police everywhere have: I minimize the risk to myself, by maximizing the risk to the citizen.

Everyone wants to go home to their wife and kids at the end of their shift; however this is a risky job that nobody is forcing anyone to do. It used to be understood that innocents were more valuable than criminals, now the risk burden is consciously shifted such that citizens are placed in the position of eggs to be broken for omelettes.

Mas,

You’ve missed a few points here.

1) Law enforcement knew that Jose Guerena was a gun owner and recent two-tour Iraq war vet, USMC.

2) They knew they would be catching him while he was asleep. That was the plan. Yes, this was in fact broad daylight – but by design, it was Jose’s “midnight”. Just over 2 hours earlier he’d gotten off-shift at a mine, where he’d put in 12 hours. They had to know that, given the potential danger Jose posed. If not, they were complete blithering idiots.

3) Given those facts, it was very, very likely that Guerena was going to die that day. It was entirely predictable to any of the department managers who knew how that SWAT team “operates” (so to speak – we’ll get to that!). Worse, this event basically nullifies the 2nd Amendment in AZ – if you think your home is being broken into and you arm yourself on that basis, if it turns out to be police doing their best imitation of “gangstas” then you are going to die – period, end of discussion. That is a pre-planned decision on the part of this agency and all too many others.

4) Now let’s talk about the competency of the “team” involved. Here’s some hard evidence: pictures I took myself of the Guerena family home’s front door and back wall a week ago:

Front door:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2799/5798366227_df133051d0_b.jpg

Gee Mas, was this a modern police action or a drive-by? Because I’m finding it hard to sort out, you know?

Hole 1 is an exit – the door was fully open and the entry was in the edge of the door not seen now that it’s closed. Direction of travel is, of course, into the home. Holes 4 and 5 are similar, except that here the two entries came through doorframe first (holes 2 and 3) so with the door closed, we now see both entry and exit holes. And we also see a pretty sharp downward angle, which I think is important.

Here’s the back of the home. Now granted, bullets can do some funky things after hitting people or objects within the home, but…this is still a pretty wild spread:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5028/5798366223_cd542de5e6_b.jpg

Two rounds cleared the 6ft brick wall I shot this over and did visible holes in the next house to my rear as I took that pic. I’m told more strays went elsewhere and that at least two other houses besides the Guerena house were hit.

You need to understand that this was densely populated suburbia:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3642/5798366235_392447929d_b.jpg

Kind of a crappy place to try and stage WW3, no?

One more key detail – go back to the video you posted and pause it at 30 seconds in. You see the back of the helmet and torso of one of the SWAT team who later walks all the way up to the front door and is one of the guys shooting. But at 30sec in, he’s much closer to the camera. Look at his helmet: there’s something round and dangly off his left ear, and something mounted top-center in black on the helmet. It seems very likely one of those things is a camera, in which case there’s footage from much closer to the action that Sheriff Dupnick’s agency hasn’t released. Well gee Mas, I wonder why? Could it be that the extreme downward trajectory of at least two rounds was basically part of a “finishing burst”? Because that’s certainly what it looks like, no?

I really, really want to see that closer video.

In the meantime, what I get out of this is that the “war on drugs” has turned into an absolutely full-fledged war on ME. On any AZ gun owner, including one like me who’s never even tried pot let alone anything wilder. I’m one bad snitch away from Jose’s fate, living in Tucson with a CCW permit so if they ever want to raid me, they’ll know to do it in just as trigger-happy a state as they did here.

We’re down to a choice: we can support the 2nd and 4th Amendments to the US constitution, or we can support a program of price supports for drugs at gunpoint as we’ve been doing in a failed fashion for generations now.

No. We’re done. People want to screw themselves up on drugs? Let ’em. I don’t give a crap anymore. It’s a war on US, dammit. We have to end it, one way or another.

———–

Oh: as to the comments about the lunatic that shot up Gabby Gifford’s party: said lunatic had issued a long series of death threats previously, all of them classifiable as “terrorist threats”. One guess whihc agency blew off most of the reports? Yeah. Sheriff Dipstick. We’re not real happy with him. And yeah, we get that SWAT wasn’t involved in both incidents…but this sheriff’s department sure was.

Mas, please just go back to writing article about guns.

Mas said Jose Guerena was innocent, but needed to be killed. So that’s how it is now. Set up a Catch22, and kill anyone who does not quickly bow down and genuflect before their masters.

After one comes to the conclusion he or she is already a slave that can be murdered by its master at any time, then things become much clearer.

The fight Mas is bringing into our homes and streets is destroying what we recognize as America. The troubles are being forced upon a people that yearn to be left alone, yearn to be free. But the troubles are being forced upon them against their will.

Call me “Tank Guy”, standing here with my groceries, asking it to stop.
You all know he was ‘re-educated’ later that day, right?
Targetted for daring to speak.
They sent a team to his home.

After one comes to the conclusion he or she is already a slave that can be murdered by its master at any time, then things become much clearer.

Jose Guerena and Scott Walker were innocent men, murdered by people who see it as their duty. How sick is that?
Sic Semper Tyrannis.

Mas,

I was one of those that based on initial reports took the opinion that the PCSO got it wrong. As more information has come to light I am relooking my initial biases. It does appear that the PCSO SWAT team could stand some additional training so their operations work smoother. I would also like them to get a decent PR person assigned. Haveing the SWAT lawyer talk to the press made the lawyer look like a flamin *hole and mad the SWAT team look callous and that they might be hiding something.

Tucson is possibly the most liberal city in the state of AZ. It is also highly sensitized to anything that looks like it might be racial in context. It is normal for TPD and PCSO to be criticized if they do anything, or do nothing. Criticized for taking down an armed drug suspect, criticized for not taking down an unarmed (at the time) lunatic. No wonder Dupnik seems frustrated.

“Home invasion squads in Arizona have been known to impersonate police. From within a home, what would you see?”

That’s a key issue, if not the key issue – as, in at least one home invasion robbery in Texas, the robbers were verified by police to have been posing as officers doing a search warrant.
ANYONE can yell “Police! Search warrant!” ANYONE can buy “raid jackets” – at least if what I’ve personally seen is any guide. Police *routinely* arrest “fake cops” who appear to be real officers – in every context from “blue-light rapists” to the guy who was busted at a federal building saying he was an officer and showing his badge – all over America.
Fake “officers” doing home invasions appear to be a trend in border states – such as Arizona and (documented) Texas.
On the other hand, there’s no excuse for the media erring so hopelessly in its initial reporting of whether the location raided was an error, the number of shots, etc.

I think Mark’s comment about trust is the big issue. You can run a democracy by trust or by fear;we have slid down the slope to fear, especially since 2001. Police make people feel nervous, not safe, and the number of mistakes by heavily armed police appears to be on the rise, from my casual reading, anyway. Instances like this are certainly reported more frequently:

http://www.pixiq.com/article/MIami%20Beach%20Police%20Ordered%20Videographer%20At%20Gunpoint%20To%20Hand%20Over

As the U.S. declines into a kind of corporate fascist banana republic and the middle class become crushed, police are going to be asked to “keep order”, not “protect and serve.” “Keeping order” leads to excesses IMHO, with frustrated cops and dead citizens.

Funny thing happened yesterday, Police knocked on my door looking for someone. I’m not sure what happened but I’m guessing they were looking for a someone who did something bad (there were a few Officers). I could see their squad cars from inside so I opened the door. One Officer politely asked me a few questions and I politely responded, then we went our merry ways.

I’m going to guess Officers are pretty good at reading people. If you’re honest with them, they can probably tell. Same goes if you’re up to no good, they can probably tell that too.

Had I answered the door with a handgun or rifle, that might have given the Officer the impression I was hiding something or was guilty of something.

Even to me, going for the gun when the Police knock seems like a guilty mind to me. I know bad guys imitate Officers but do they really do such good imitations that you can’t tell? Maybe I’ve never seen an imitation and just assume it’s someone in a bad Halloween costume.

Mas:
The competence of the SWAT officers is a seperate isssued from whether or not the warrant/shooting was justified but it has kept coming up over the last couple of days
My only experience with SWAT was watching the show of the same name as a kid so I’m very curious to know: What does this video tell you about the level of competence of the officers involved?

Mas, thanks for making the points you’ve made.

I’ve heard talk that there was a negligent discharge by a SWAT officer, but I don’t believe it after seeing the video. There is a bang when the break the door in, then the first shots are bang-bang-bang-bang. I don’t think that you would have a negligent discharge four times in a row. It would be bang, pause for surprise, bang bang bang. So either the suspect fired those shots, or an officer did. Apparently the suspect hadn’t fired, so it was an officer.

If I was initiating a dangerous situation like that, and the bad guy pointed a gun at me, I’d shoot him four times as well

Mas, don’t worry about the trolls. There have always been unbalanced angry people, the internet has made it possible for them to talk to anybody.

As usual, great job and great analysis, Mas. There are just so many people out there that want to hate on police and will never listen to reason because that will shatter their little bubble of hate and conspiracy. Those people cannot be reasoned with because they have no reason. They also have no clue as to what they are talking about.

I would suggest that anyone that wants to debate any of this should go serve a warrant on a felony suspect wanted on weapons and drug charges. No armor, nothing but the aforementioned holstered .38 snub. They can knock politely and request the suspect come along peacefully and please don’t bring anything sharp with you. After all, they know what’s best in the world of pastel skies and people that just need a good hug.

I’m not going to plow through all the comments. Just a few observations to Mas. Cops in California will joking tell you that the vehicle code exists for probable cause and has nothing to do with keeping our highways safe (I’ve heard that probably 5 times in the last year from different LE officers).

The second is this door kicking business isn’t necessary in the vast majority of cases since the suspect will always leave his house in the morning. But overwhelming force is the order of the day. At Waco the sheriff could have gone to the front door, knocked and arrested Koresh. Instead BIG LE had to do the door kicking. At one time deescalation was the order of the day for LE. Now it’s all about overwhelming force, which is a nice way of saying violence. Reason isn’t always returned with reason, but unreasonableness is guaranteed to get the unexpected result. More and more law abiding citizens like myself feel the unwanted object of government affection. The police may in fact be just trying to do their job but any reasonable man can see what their job will soon entail. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me at all if within a couple of years they come for Mas.

BTW, I call bullshit on the comment above mine. I’m so glad Mas brought this up. It’s been eating at me (and obviously others) for a very long time. I shoot with cops, watch football games at each others houses, know their wives and kids, we go to BBQs together, they give me a heads up on family members dancing on the line (and I’ve had some major successes intervening in individuals heading wrong), and yet there’s this thing going on that’s rapidly separating us. I think it’s always been the intention of government to keep LE from the Prols and as I watch cops with 29 years on the job worry about their pensions and jobs its obvious they are also under a lot of pressure to conform to city/county/state/fed edicts which assume that we’re all guilty of terminal stupidity and only our betters in guv can safe us. As the economy gets worse the line between legal and illegal will be a matter of survival for some. And a lot of those individuals will be family and friends. Unless we discuss this openly there’s going to be some major problems in our all our futures.

Would you feel comfortable with that sort of SWAT activity at your home?

Do you have any suggestions on how to get out of it alive?

Are we to believe that we are being targeted by a SWAT raid just because person unknown shouts “POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT”?

Once again, the idea of officer safety means that the life of the government’s man in blue will ALWAYS be valued more highly than that of the lowly civilian whether guilty of innocent. Cops have a rather low incidence of mortality or injury on the job per capita than the fisherman, logger, farmer or construction tradesman. Combine this with the idiotic and counterproductive drug war and you have a perfect recipe for furthers atrocities against civilians.

Autopsy report released. 22 entry wounds, 69 exit wounds. In yet another demonstration of the firearms expertise of Dupnik’s clowns; and another demonstration of his “strenuous selection process” and “high standards” he expects from from his most highly trained officers; virtually all were peripheral hits.

“– one wound to the head, which the report describes as a graze;
— one wound to the right upper chest;
— one to the right lower chest;
— one to the left upper abdomen;
— three to the right upper arm;
— one to the right elbow;
— one to the right hand;
— one to the left upper arm;
— one to the left elbow;
— one to the left forearm;
— one to the left hand;
— two to the right thigh;
— one to the right calf,
— one to the right foot;
— four to the left thigh;
— and one to the left foot.

“According to the report, neither bullet to the chest penetrated the heart; nor does it note an impact on major blood vessels. But the wound to the abdomen traveled through the spleen and left lung, where it caused hemorrhaging.”

So yeah, it looks survivable. Except that Dupnik’s clowns ensured he bled to death.