In Rifle, one of my favorite gun magazines, I always enjoy reading Terry Wieland’s thoughtful column, “Walnut Hill.” In the May 2014 issue, he cited an important quote from a great authority on firearms, Bob Hagel.
The quote was, “You should not carry a rifle that will do the job when everything goes right; you should have one that works when everything goes wrong.”
Words to live by, and they don’t apply just to rifles.
It’s looking as if the FBI is going to scale down from .40 caliber Glocks to 9mm, starting next year. The 9mm has long been approved as an option for agents, and a recommended one for those who find the recoil of the .40 too difficult to manage in training and qualification, even though .40 Glocks have been standard issue for the Bureau since the late 1990s. The .45 caliber Glock 21, if privately purchased, is also approved, and I can think offhand of at least three agents I know who carry them, all “gun guys.” I hope that option remains for field agents if and when the Bureau goes to 9mm as its primary caliber.
It comes at a time when, as discussed here, there’s a push in the military to go back to .45 from the 9mm that has been standard issue for most elements since the mid-1980s. Non-expanding ball ammo being the norm for military pistols, I can certainly see the .45 argument: it’s what I’d definitely prefer if I suffered under the same limitations of bullet configuration. With law enforcement hollow points, current ammo has made the 9mm a much more viable defensive choice than it used to be. Of course, the same new designs make .40 S&W and .45 ACP more potent than they used to be, too.
Lower ammo cost, and smaller rounds allowing more cartridges on board, favor the 9mm over the .45 in a pistol, and the 5.56mm over 7.62mm in the rifle. Yet if there’s time for only one shot – whether it’s the winter venison or your own life that’s at stake – all of a sudden, more powerful cartridges seem more comforting.
Each of us has to assess our needs and our abilities, balance them, and make the right decision.
Where did you find your balance?
With the exception of the US, Mexico, Argentina and the Philippines, the world is 9mm. Many bodies drop every day with this “pipsqueak” around the world. Plus as Mas mentioned, new designs make 9mm an effective round (as effective as any handgun load could ever hope to be) and at the end of the day, if a properly placed shot cannot be achieved, I rather have lots of peripheral shots to stop the threat and make up for the misses that may happen in a confrontation.
Agreed, sound advice Mas. I just cannot seem to get the nice groupings with my 9mm Glock 19, that I can with my 1911 .45. The Glock is nicer to concealed carry than the 1911 is, but in a pinch I would rather have the gun which I know will do the job.
I choose the .45. Old school, heavy bullet, good energy and fast enough.
My carry gun is packed with modern 9mm +P defensive ammo. People can argue until they’re blue, but I would rather have two more shots than slightly more powerful rounds. Plus, wife also has a 9mm and #1 son can handle it — .40 not so much.
That said, in the woods I carry a .357 magnum.
I guess I would ask you Mas, what do you prefer more bullets or bigger bullets?
I prefer more and with jhp I am fine with 9mm.
When I started my career, my department was very liberal when it came to sidearms an officer could carry. The department issued a S&W mod. 10 .38 spec., but you could carry any sidearm you were comfortable with as long as it was a S&W, Colt, or Browning 9mm/.38 spec. or larger (up to and including .44 mag.)
Like most officers, I experimented with a wide spectrum of sidearms, settling on a ’70 series 1911 .45 acp.
Later, liberal city politicians decided that semi-auto pistols were inherently dangerous (they referred to them as electric guns) and mandated that everyone carry revolvers no larger than .357mag.
A decade later, our Chief convinced the city fathers that high capacity semi-auto’s were necessary for officer’s to be on par with the firepower being encountered on the streets. The city then began issuing the Sig 226 in 9mm., but allowed officers to purchase at their own expense the then new .357sig. I took this option and was pleasantly surprised at the difference in felt recoil as compared the .357 mag., especially considering the fact that it is a close ballistic match to the latter.
The only draw back I’ve found to this cartridge is when reloading, which involves adding an extra step using a factory crimp to prevent bullet set-back.
The .357 sig. is my favorite defensive cartridge as it is high in effectiveness and, at least to me, the mildest recoil of any cartridge in this power range.
Gotta admit though, in retirement, I’ve settled on the little .380acp. for daily carry, mainly because it is so easy to carry, my chances of confrontation have diminished substantially, and the knowledge that a handgun is a poor stopper without very good shot placement, no matter what caliber.
I’m not surprised, with the selection of hollowpoints today, and everyone loading to meet FBI standards, the performance gap between 9mm and .40 is pretty much insignificant, while the drawbacks of .40 (recoil, blast, cost, lower capacity) are suddenly more of a factor.
On top of that I’ve talked to police who switched from 9mm to .40 back in the day and have noticed a lot fewer shootings of BGs ending up in the morgue than when they were using 9mm. Anecdotal I know but still interesting.
If the FBI goes “exclusively” to the 9mm for its Special Investigators, many of whom are smaller females and “non-gun guy” lawyer types, I will read their report and rational for this move with much interest. However, until FBI Swat and HRT members move exclusively to the 9mm, it’s just a data point, and one of questionable significance to my choice of firearm.
There are two ways to manage recoil. If you want a bigger, more powerful cartridge, get a larger, heavier gun. If you want a littler, lighter gun, get a smaller, less-powerful cartridge.
I favor Plan A.
> lower ammo cost
Possibly an issue for training, but if you’re taking down an attacker, how much would you be willing to pay for a better chance of a kill?
That also holds for the kind of people who read Terry’s columns; they’re the ones who, or want to, spend large sums of money to go to Africa to hunt dangerous game. When your out-of-pocket expense for a hunt is already in the $50-$75K range, $50 or so per shot for a rifle chambered in some long obsolete nitro express cartridge doesn’t even blip on the radar.
Plinking and target shooting, that’s my money; cost is important. Military and government qualification and training… unless there’s so much it turns into a budget line item, it’s free. (that is, you and I pay for it)
“Lower ammo cost” for an FBI weapon is just meaningless PR noise. Especially considering the cost difference between .50BMG and the 20mm their newest toys shoot…
.45, .308/30-06 or 12 gauge. On the few occasions I needed a weapon I NEVER wished for a smaller caliber/gauge or fewer rounds onboard.
Merle
Well, Mas, you know me. Since I have a choice, it is the .357 Sig. Of course, when I become really old and creaky, I will start working with the 9mm again. (Those days may be more rapidly approaching.) We are glad that you are back in town. HG III
Mas, as you know, I have an Ed Brown in ,45 acp, I also have a Colt Gold Cup, a National Match, and a Mark IV, as well as a Star PD all in .45 acp. I also have a Glock 37 in .45gap. So I guess you could say that I am a fan of the 45. I also have 2 .45 Colt revolvers. These guns are fine on the range and I love shooting them. However, when it comes to all day carry I use the Kahr CM9. My small hands fit it better and with a spare mag and high performance ammo (Critical Duty) I do not feel under gunned. On most days I have to check that it is still there.
Mas, as you know, I have an Ed Brown in ,45 acp, I also have a Colt Gold Cup, a National Match, and a Mark IV, as well as a Star PD all in .45 acp. I also have a Glock 37 in .45gap. So I guess you could say that I am a fan of the 45. I also have 2 .45 Colt revolvers. These guns are fine on the range and I love shooting them. However, when it comes to all day carry I use the Kahr CM9. My small hands fit it better and with a spare mag and high performance ammo (Critical Duty) I do not feel under gunned. On most days I have to check that it is still there.
Mas, as you know, I have an Ed Brown in ,45 acp, I also have a Colt Gold Cup, a National Match, and a Mark IV, as well as a Star PD all in .45 acp. I also have a Glock 37 in .45gap. So I guess you could say that I am a fan of the 45. I also have 2 .45 Colt revolvers. These guns are fine on the range and I love shooting them. However, when it comes to all day carry I use the Kahr CM9. My small hands fit it better and with a spare mag and high performance ammo (Critical Duty) I do not feel under gunned. On most days I have to check that it is still there.
If you are using fmj bullets and you are not using a 10mm or .45 you are kidding yourself. I have 9mm’s that I enjoy shooting, but I either carry them with good HP’s, or I carry my .45.
If you are using fmj bullets and you are not using a 10mm or .45 you are kidding yourself. I have 9mm’s that I enjoy shooting, but I either carry them with good HP’s, or I carry my .45.
If you are using fmj bullets and you are not using a 10mm or .45 you are kidding yourself. I have 9mm’s that I enjoy shooting, but I either carry them with good HP’s, or I carry my .45.
Three years ago when S & W Team Member Molly Smith was just 15, I caught a few seconds of her shooting a Sig in .40 S & W. Recoil wasn’t bothering her at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpTKQH7bPY
This was at the Washoe County Range during the Blogger Rendezvous.
Three years ago when S & W Team Member Molly Smith was just 15, I caught a few seconds of her shooting a Sig in .40 S & W. Recoil wasn’t bothering her at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpTKQH7bPY
This was at the Washoe County Range during the Blogger Rendezvous.
Three years ago when S & W Team Member Molly Smith was just 15, I caught a few seconds of her shooting a Sig in .40 S & W. Recoil wasn’t bothering her at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpTKQH7bPY
This was at the Washoe County Range during the Blogger Rendezvous.
Three years ago when S & W Team Member Molly Smith was just 15, I caught a few seconds of her shooting a Sig in .40 S & W. Recoil wasn’t bothering her at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpTKQH7bPY
This was at the Washoe County Range during the Blogger Rendezvous.
.45 ACP in an M1911 for my sidearm. M1 Garand, or M14/M1A in .30-06 & 7.62 NATO for my rifles. I’ll stick with these come heck or high water. 😉
.45 ACP in an M1911 for my sidearm. M1 Garand, or M14/M1A in .30-06 & 7.62 NATO for my rifles. I’ll stick with these come heck or high water. 😉
I adopted the .40 as my EDC caliber in the early ’90s for the reasons mentioned and while I find myself preferring to shoot 9mm and .45 as I become more recoil sensitive in my old age, still practice, train and and carry .40.
I adopted the .40 as my EDC caliber in the early ’90s for the reasons mentioned and while I find myself preferring to shoot 9mm and .45 as I become more recoil sensitive in my old age, still practice, train and and carry .40.
I adopted the .40 as my EDC caliber in the early ’90s for the reasons mentioned and while I find myself preferring to shoot 9mm and .45 as I become more recoil sensitive in my old age, still practice, train and and carry .40.
I adopted the .40 as my EDC caliber in the early ’90s for the reasons mentioned and while I find myself preferring to shoot 9mm and .45 as I become more recoil sensitive in my old age, still practice, train and and carry .40.
I started out with a .40 caliber full-sized Taurus 24/7 about nine years ago and shot it well. I quickly wanted a better carry option, so I purchased a S&W M&P40c. I shot that pretty well too. As it often turns out, life got in the way and I found myself not having shot a firearm in longer than I’d like to admit. When I dusted off my .40 cal, I shot it very poorly, so I decided to try a 9mm and purchased a Glock 19. Instantly, I found myself shooting a little better, but not well enough to stop practicing again. In any event, if ballistics are not as much of an issue, and 9mm offers greater capacity, why not go with the caliber that is also marginally easier to shoot? I saw some ball ammo ballistic gel penetration comparisons between 9mm and .45 ball ammo. Granted, jello isn’t the same as meat, blood, and bone, but the differences still appeared negligible.
I started out with a .40 caliber full-sized Taurus 24/7 about nine years ago and shot it well. I quickly wanted a better carry option, so I purchased a S&W M&P40c. I shot that pretty well too. As it often turns out, life got in the way and I found myself not having shot a firearm in longer than I’d like to admit. When I dusted off my .40 cal, I shot it very poorly, so I decided to try a 9mm and purchased a Glock 19. Instantly, I found myself shooting a little better, but not well enough to stop practicing again. In any event, if ballistics are not as much of an issue, and 9mm offers greater capacity, why not go with the caliber that is also marginally easier to shoot? I saw some ball ammo ballistic gel penetration comparisons between 9mm and .45 ball ammo. Granted, jello isn’t the same as meat, blood, and bone, but the differences still appeared negligible.
My choices for ammo are based on the fact that I expect to be defending myself alone. I want to hit the bad guy(s) hard, so hopefully, he won’t shoot back at me. I want to shoot the most powerful cartridges I can handle, without flinching. For rifles I like .30–’06 or 7.62 NATO. For shotguns it is 12-gauge buckshot or slugs. For semi-auto handguns I prefer .45 ACP, and revolvers .357 Magnum. When I get older, I’m sure I’ll scale down. I also don’t want to shoot a lot. I want to say, “Hey Judge, I only fired once, (or twice, or three times).” I don’t want to look like I was eager to kill someone. With more powerful cartridges, of course I expect to shoot less. If I’m firing smaller cartridges, I will already be expecting to fire more shots.
It’s nice to live in a rich country where we have such a bewildering array of choices. In a bad situation, I would simply be happy to have any gun that works well, in any caliber. For concealed carry, it’s tough to get a small gun in .45 ACP, so a 9mm with hollow points makes sense. If I had to, of course I would resist a goblin with whatever I had at hand, whether it was a flashlight, a baseball bat, a fire extinguisher or my fists. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Be prepared.
My choices for ammo are based on the fact that I expect to be defending myself alone. I want to hit the bad guy(s) hard, so hopefully, he won’t shoot back at me. I want to shoot the most powerful cartridges I can handle, without flinching. For rifles I like .30–’06 or 7.62 NATO. For shotguns it is 12-gauge buckshot or slugs. For semi-auto handguns I prefer .45 ACP, and revolvers .357 Magnum. When I get older, I’m sure I’ll scale down. I also don’t want to shoot a lot. I want to say, “Hey Judge, I only fired once, (or twice, or three times).” I don’t want to look like I was eager to kill someone. With more powerful cartridges, of course I expect to shoot less. If I’m firing smaller cartridges, I will already be expecting to fire more shots.
It’s nice to live in a rich country where we have such a bewildering array of choices. In a bad situation, I would simply be happy to have any gun that works well, in any caliber. For concealed carry, it’s tough to get a small gun in .45 ACP, so a 9mm with hollow points makes sense. If I had to, of course I would resist a goblin with whatever I had at hand, whether it was a flashlight, a baseball bat, a fire extinguisher or my fists. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Be prepared.
9mm and lots of it. I carry a G26 and an additional 17 round mag.
9mm and lots of it. I carry a G26 and an additional 17 round mag.
.45 and 7.62, no surprise there Mas.
.45 and 7.62, no surprise there Mas.
.45 and 7.62, no surprise there Mas.
.45 and 7.62, no surprise there Mas.
Interesting comments Mas,
This isn’t the 70’s, when my Browning hollowpoint ammo wouldn’t feed in my Browning Hi-Power. The technology advance has made hollow points in all calibers more reliable and efficient. As someone who carried a Colt Combat Elite for the first 5 years that Florida had “shall issue” laws, I’ve recently sold off my .45’s and have gone with strictly 9mm. They are just as accurate now, and my follow up shots are faster. Though I still carry a 1911, it’s now in 9mm, and I am more than comfortable with that.
Interesting comments Mas,
This isn’t the 70’s, when my Browning hollowpoint ammo wouldn’t feed in my Browning Hi-Power. The technology advance has made hollow points in all calibers more reliable and efficient. As someone who carried a Colt Combat Elite for the first 5 years that Florida had “shall issue” laws, I’ve recently sold off my .45’s and have gone with strictly 9mm. They are just as accurate now, and my follow up shots are faster. Though I still carry a 1911, it’s now in 9mm, and I am more than comfortable with that.
My balance came with the .357 Sig in a Glock 31.
My balance came with the .357 Sig in a Glock 31.
I’ve been a 1911 .45ACP guy since my Dad gave me my first one when I was about 14.
The gun fits my hand perfectly and the cartridge is up to just about any job. I bagged my first feral hog with it this past June. Just today it went in to have G.I sights replaced with Meprolights.
Unfortunately, carrying 16 hours a day would not work so I carry a SIG 232, wimpy but adequate.
I don’t like for the military swapping out guns, it prolly is a case of fattening some buddy’s wallet. FBI, why can’t they just set minimum criteria for hand guns and let the agents get what works best for them, that idea too old fashioned?
I’ve been a 1911 .45ACP guy since my Dad gave me my first one when I was about 14.
The gun fits my hand perfectly and the cartridge is up to just about any job. I bagged my first feral hog with it this past June. Just today it went in to have G.I sights replaced with Meprolights.
Unfortunately, carrying 16 hours a day would not work so I carry a SIG 232, wimpy but adequate.
I don’t like for the military swapping out guns, it prolly is a case of fattening some buddy’s wallet. FBI, why can’t they just set minimum criteria for hand guns and let the agents get what works best for them, that idea too old fashioned?
I’ve been a 1911 .45ACP guy since my Dad gave me my first one when I was about 14.
The gun fits my hand perfectly and the cartridge is up to just about any job. I bagged my first feral hog with it this past June. Just today it went in to have G.I sights replaced with Meprolights.
Unfortunately, carrying 16 hours a day would not work so I carry a SIG 232, wimpy but adequate.
I don’t like for the military swapping out guns, it prolly is a case of fattening some buddy’s wallet. FBI, why can’t they just set minimum criteria for hand guns and let the agents get what works best for them, that idea too old fashioned?
I’ve been a 1911 .45ACP guy since my Dad gave me my first one when I was about 14.
The gun fits my hand perfectly and the cartridge is up to just about any job. I bagged my first feral hog with it this past June. Just today it went in to have G.I sights replaced with Meprolights.
Unfortunately, carrying 16 hours a day would not work so I carry a SIG 232, wimpy but adequate.
I don’t like for the military swapping out guns, it prolly is a case of fattening some buddy’s wallet. FBI, why can’t they just set minimum criteria for hand guns and let the agents get what works best for them, that idea too old fashioned?
I’ve been a 1911 .45ACP guy since my Dad gave me my first one when I was about 14.
The gun fits my hand perfectly and the cartridge is up to just about any job. I bagged my first feral hog with it this past June. Just today it went in to have G.I sights replaced with Meprolights.
Unfortunately, carrying 16 hours a day would not work so I carry a SIG 232, wimpy but adequate.
I don’t like for the military swapping out guns, it prolly is a case of fattening some buddy’s wallet. FBI, why can’t they just set minimum criteria for hand guns and let the agents get what works best for them, that idea too old fashioned?
I’ve been a 1911 .45ACP guy since my Dad gave me my first one when I was about 14.
The gun fits my hand perfectly and the cartridge is up to just about any job. I bagged my first feral hog with it this past June. Just today it went in to have G.I sights replaced with Meprolights.
Unfortunately, carrying 16 hours a day would not work so I carry a SIG 232, wimpy but adequate.
I don’t like for the military swapping out guns, it prolly is a case of fattening some buddy’s wallet. FBI, why can’t they just set minimum criteria for hand guns and let the agents get what works best for them, that idea too old fashioned?
I have carried all three calibers in three military conflicts, as a reserve LEO and as a concealed carry. In truth, most days my primary is a .38 +P
S&W J frame with a Seecamp .32 Winchester Silvertip as backup. At night, besides the Remington 870, a Glock 17 with a rail light is close at hand. Here in the computer room is a Glock 35 with a 22 round mag. When out and about on our 300 acres, it is a Kimber SS Gold Cup with .45 quality hollowpoints. En extremis, I favor .45 ACP, preferably from my legal Thompson Colt 1928N w/ C or L drum… Thanks to my friend PK in Delta, CO, my wife Mare favors her Sterling MK IV SMG suppressed…YMMV
I have carried all three calibers in three military conflicts, as a reserve LEO and as a concealed carry. In truth, most days my primary is a .38 +P
S&W J frame with a Seecamp .32 Winchester Silvertip as backup. At night, besides the Remington 870, a Glock 17 with a rail light is close at hand. Here in the computer room is a Glock 35 with a 22 round mag. When out and about on our 300 acres, it is a Kimber SS Gold Cup with .45 quality hollowpoints. En extremis, I favor .45 ACP, preferably from my legal Thompson Colt 1928N w/ C or L drum… Thanks to my friend PK in Delta, CO, my wife Mare favors her Sterling MK IV SMG suppressed…YMMV
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