A grand jury in New York City recently indicted a young ex-Marine for Second Degree Manslaughter. An EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person) was threatening people in a crowded subway car, and the young man restrained him with what some described as a rear naked choke, and held him in position for an uncertain number of minutes. The restrained man died.
I have not seen the autopsy results at this writing, but according to news reports the cause of death was “compression of the neck,” not necessarily strangulation or asphyxiation. This would indicate that it was not an armbar strangle, but LVNR (Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint), which is consistent with the images I’ve seen of the incident. In LVNR, the airway is not occluded, but the great vessels in the neck are. Oxygenated blood can no longer reach the brain, and unconsciousness ensues somewhere between right now and 16 to 20 seconds from now. When the man goes unconscious, pressure should be released, though the arm remains in place in case the subject renews hostility. From videos and stills I’ve seen, I can’t tell whether or not the ex-Marine is applying pressure.
This case, being cross racial and involving a mentally ill “victim,” created howls of protest. The fact that the grand jury did not indict for Murder indicates that they saw no element of malice or intent to kill. However, in NYC recently the prosecution has seemed most unkind toward use of lethal force in self-defense.
Fortunately, this kid seems to have smart lawyers. Attorneys learn in law school the same thing cops learn in the police academy: “We don’t discuss our cases in the press! It will all come out in court.” Unfortunately, the paradigm has changed: publicity-hungry prosecutors and money-hungry plaintiffs’ lawyers have created a new strategy in which the defendant is painted as a monster in a massive media campaign. Lawyers for the defense who don’t answer are leaving their wrongly-accused clients undefended in the Court of Public Opinion, and the world they have to return to after they are (hopefully) acquitted.
These defense lawyers are publicly standing up for their client, including the almost unheard of strategy of allowing the client to speak to the press himself. This client handled that well so far in my opinion, and appears to have “checked all the boxes.” Smaller, weaker potential victims were in that subway car for the powerfully built mental patient to attack. Ability factor: check. In the packed subway car they were within easy reach. Opportunity factor: check. The deceased was loudly threatening to kill. Jeopardy (manifest intent) factor: check.
The defendant’s actions show, from what I’ve seen so far, that he is eminently defensible. Kudos to his attorneys for saying so to the world.
T Y again, Mr. Ayoob. Good to see illustrated with authority that a man threatening to murder strangers around him in a subway must be taken seriously. Let me say that, IMHO, the most important thing was that no neighbors were harmed in the moment. They all lived, for Pete’s sake! Let anyone demonstrate how to bring promised victims back from death or other harm. Some accidental “collateral damage” seems reasonable, on the side of prevention. I am looking at a report out of Tucson, AZ about a reported “dumbstruck” AZ Game and Fish Department, and a predatory bear that surprised and killed a house-building man yesterday, said man drinking coffee at the time of attack I just wish that reporters and potential attack victims in bear country would try to think more like bears. Bears get fresh meat by killing suddenly from ambush. People ARE meat, and are therefore ALWAYS bear game, whether coffee drinkers or not. Bears can be expected to give no warning when attacking. I know by experience that they can be quiet as a cat. G & F officers are smart enough to go armed with adequate firearms, and are seldom, if ever, “dumbstruck,” or surprised by bear attack, either. I often occupy bear country. Again, I believe in carrying at least a .357 revolver with skull-or-spine-crushing loads at all times, where I can grasp the handle with either hand, if not already in hand, and fire from close contact if necessary. A second and more powerful firearm as primary is best, if practical in the moment. The RIGHT dogs are great warning devices. Yesterday’s deceased home builder should simply have been prepared to detect and deter a bear, not have died a horrible death, and still be drinking coffee today.
The bear attack reported last Friday actually occurred near Prescott, AZ, which is no where near Tucson. The news is now full of comments by people who are often clueless of the NONHUMAN mental processes of bear. I have seen, over many years, enough of bear behavior to know that bear are PREDICTABLY UNPREDICTABLE. I don’t know why that should be so hard to understand. About the only thing consistently predictable about bear is that they may try to chew up anyone or anything, anytime. Temporary bear insanity is even possible. Or a headache. Not that you cannot predict some things, SOME OF THE TIME. Part of the danger is you may think that you have them all figured out, when you do not.
After being found innocent and justified he should be added to the growing list of bona fide heros amongst us. Evil thrives when good men do nothing.
If the many times arrested, mentally ill attacker had harmed someone, New Yorkers would have tut-tutted over their coffee and muttered that “someone should have done something.” Well, this time a young Marine vet chose to do something and was thanked by being arrested and faces years in prison. Hopefully a future jury will find him not guilty even if he is not a member of the protected class. Keep electing the same people and keep choosing the side of evil over good and you will continue to get the same outcomes.
“God save the queen, man.”
Seems like he hits on all 5 points of A. Branca’s Elements of Self Defense:
– Innocence: he didn’t start the conflict
– Imminence: threat was ongoing
– Avoidance: not possible to avoid (for self; others)
And the two most disputable but clear to me:
– Proportional: restraint not usually lethal if used properly, even neck holds (even though death threats were apparently made)
– Reasonable: seems reasonable to try to contain him given his reported behavior
I think it is easy to say he may or may not have applied too much pressure. However, as Mas points out, it seems more likely he was not causing asphyxia given position of arm around neck). And if he was applying carotid artery pressure, results would have been in seconds, not minutes.
Like Floyd, who, IMHO as a pharmacist, died of a drug overdose, we may find other health related factors to be involved or responsible. Yet the courts (of public opinion and law) may have trouble seeing beyond the clouds of emotion, misinformation, manipulation, threats and outright lies.
Paul S,
Your comments will only persuade logical, clear-thinking individuals who seek the truth. To the lobotomized Left, Daniel Penny is an evil, racist white man, who killed a black man. Communists must fabricate as many stories as possible to show how unjust America is. It’s an ancient tactic; divide and conquer.
Three thoughts on this case:
1) As Mas notes, the autopsy report is going to be CRITICAL. Just what role did the neck restraint play in the death? Did it directly contribute to it? Or did the EDP have pre-existing medical conditions or narcotics in his bloodstream (a la George Floyd) that were a more direct cause? It is telling that the autopsy report has not been released to the public. I think that, if it strongly indicated that the neck restraint was a direct cause of death, then it would have been fed to the Anti-American Media (to inflame their anti-defense narratives) by now. The fact that it is being withheld makes me think that there is some positive things in it for the Perry Defense Team to exploit. The Defense Team will need their own medical experts to testify in addition to use-of-force experts.
2) The behavior of the EDP triggered multiple 911 calls to the police. This is important. It shows that the behavior of the EDP was so threatening that defensive actions were required. It was not just Penny’s perception that the EDP was a threat. Clearly, the people who helped in the restraint and the people who called 911 perceived the EDP as a threat too. Bingo! The defensive action was REASONIBLE. That meets one of the conditions of a valid self-defense/defense-of-others claim – REASONABLENESS.
3) Penny’s Defense Team set up a GiveSendGo account to raise money for the Penny Legal Defense. This fund has raised about $2.9 million. Therefore, Penny’s Defense is well-funded. The Prosecutor, with his unlimited budget of taxpayer money, won’t just be able to outgun, outspend, and overwhelm the Defense Team. The Defense Team has the funds for expert witnesses, legal staff, research staff, etc. to put up a strong legal defense. This case won’t be a “gimme” for the Prosecution. I expect the Prosecution to “get down and dirty” and use underhanded tricks like what was done in the Rittenhouse Case. It will be a feather for the Leftist Prosecutor to win in this case and Leftists don’t play by the rules. Expect dirty tricks and false claims galore! Expect the Left to put their brainwashed protestors into the streets. Expect them to turn it into a “Show Trial” before the end. Expect the Left and their media attack-dogs to “pull out all the stops” before the verdict is in.
May God be with Mr. Penny and his Defense Team. They have a mighty task ahead of them. They are facing the unified “Might” of the American Left and that is a fearsome thing!
It is ridiculous that this hero was even indicted.
From their actions it is clear the New York City Prosecutors want mentally deranged people to be able to freely threaten and possibly kill innocent citizens.
Based only leftist prosecutors’ actions in virtually every large metro area, they ALL want the same thing, no black criminals are allowed to be treated as criminals.
Hate to be picky, but there’s no such thing as an “Ex-Marine”. Once a Marine, always a Marine!
The Penny defense needs a psychiatrist or ER doc familiar with the potentially lethal agitated excitement that can occur when the mentally ill self medicate with street drugs. The central (brain) excitement and the associated metabolic derangements (body) must be terminated, even in a non-responsive (physically exhausted) subject with a strong medication, like Thorazine, to preventthe likelihood of the lethal effects of the agitated excitement. From what I have read, Neely died from medical neglect or “mis-adventure”.
I am glad that I am not the person facing that jury. They will need an expert to explain “agitated excitement” and its potentially lethal outcome.
Several years ago, in Rochester, NY, as I recall, a visiting, mentally ill family member was self medicating with street drugs. The Police were called when the family member was running around naked in a snow storm. The family member eventually died and the Police were sued. Crazy and drugs are never a good combination. An ignorant and “guilty” family will always look for someone to blame. Determination of blood drug levels and expert testimony may help. It will not be “fun”.
It may just be my computer, but the graphic isn’t loading. .tif graphics are tricky that way.
larryarnold,
I see what you see, just text, and a dark gray graphic with no images.
Yeah, I have the same problem. I have opened the page with three different browsers. The graphic doesn’t load in any of them.
I can download the tiff file and open it with a separate photo viewer program. However, it is not loading directly into any of my browsers.
If the subway hero was black he would never had been charged however anti-whitism is now part of the norm in the country and white people are no longer allowed to or expected to defend themselves at all but especially if the perp is black. “All animals are equal, some animals are more equal than others.”
@ Biker Bob – “If the subway hero was black he would never had been charged…”
It is interesting that only Daniel Penny was charged. Two other men assisted Mr. Penny in restraining the EDP. However, neither one of them has been charged. Why?
Is it because Mr. Penny was the only one who used a choke-hold? Or was it because Mr. Penny was the only one who was White?
Here is one perspective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPY-X7fDTsk
He would be easily defensible if he were in America. Unfortunately, he is in NYC so it is a tossup at best. Chauvin was defensible too and he rots in prison, probably for the rest of his life. Kangaroo courts, biased juries and leftist media caused that. And Minneapolis is not as bad a NYC.
Mas,
You are 100% correct that both defendants and police need to have public relations departments try to get their side of the story into the media. Unfortunately, in America, appearance IS reality for too many people.
We know that crime is bad in American, Democrat-run cities. We know that most city dwellers vote for Democrats.
+
The voters of New York City voted for Bill de Blasio twice.
+
The voters of NYC refused to vote for Curtis Sliwa as mayor, who would have solved their crime problem by now.
___________________________________________________________________
Cities are for losers.
I did not record the siurce but I veryb recently read a report on this incident that included some post-death examination iinfo. Seems the report indicates that the carotid arteries had NOT been blocked.. determined believe by careful examinatin f that region of the neck, and some measures of brain trauma or lac of it that would result from those arteries being blocked for any length of time.
If this is true it would seem significant evidence AGAINST a carotid artery block dyr=uring the restraint would go a long ways toward clearing Mr. Penny. If I understood correctly the cause of death was some form if excitement and resulting system shut down., likely toxicity related. I do not recall mention of the blood tox panel having been comoleted. I know this typically takes a while. It sure took severaldays when the George Floyd case was in view. Everyone was speulcating whether his drugs killed him, his prevous near-death frm fent overdose was well known when, as apppears to be the case of his self-inflicted death, he swallowed some of the drug to prevent discovery during search. But the tox panel, realeased some days later, was decisive… four times lethal dose f fent and above twice lethal of methamphetamine. Clearly the drugs killed him.Too bad this FACT did not penetrate the politically motivated jury’s collective brain. Officer Chauvin s in prison unjustly.
Let us hope the jury for Mr. Penny’s trial have their heads and hearts on correctly. If our heroes, when they step up and take the weight, get taken down repeatedly, the chances of kore stepping up in crisis diminishes.This is NOT a good situation.
I don’t know if this is included in the mentioned Battle Chest for Mr.Pennh’s defense, but I do know that Jeff Childers’ very interesting site Coffee and Covid staged a “multiplier” for Mr. Penny and raised well above a million dollars in two or three days, for his legal defense. He is a lawyer and carried some of the early cases that struck down WooFlew mandates in various US Circuit courts.
“When the man goes unconscious, pressure should be released”
IF the LVNR was used and this release not done and the man died from it, then it seems to me that all of the other AOJ stuff goes out the window at that point. Basically the same thing as shooting a perpetrator again after he no longer needs shooting.
Collateral damage is inevitable when police and the justice system fail in their duty.
It was only the violent, disturbed individual, this time, but count on NYC to add to the victim list by trying to bury the man who actually stepped up and protected people when police were nowhere to be found.
The deceased should have been somewhere his damage could be limited and where the possibility exists that he could get help. Unfortunately, nobody gave a single shit about him until he was dead and politically useful.
Tionico,
Thanks for your analysis. I do believe George Floyd died from fentanyl.
A college student told me Officer Chauvin was not in prison for killing Goerge Floyd. He said the EMTs were on the scene, and asked Officer Chauvin if they could help George Floyd. Officer Chauvin would not allow the EMTs to treat George Floyd. It is alleged Officer Chauvin prevented medical care from being given to George Floyd, and this neglect led to George’s death, and Chauvin’s imprisonment.
I do not know what the truth is, but what the college student told me makes at least a teeny, tiny bit of sense.
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