MORE QUESTIONS ANSWERED

I will say that I respect that you’ve let the dissenting comments through and have done your best to respond to the arguments. A lot of the time, the moderator or blogger will use his or her control to squelch comments, and it always seems a little immature to me. I mean, sure, drop the mod-hammer on the real trolls, but people who disagree, even vehemently, without becoming patently offensive, still deserve a voice.

One thought that comes to my mind on this whole topic is that maybe people are extra-critical of cops because of the high position that they have taken in our society. It reminds me of the whole Catholic priest abuse scandal (not to open another can of worms). I have read a blog post from a Catholic priest who said, basically, that, sure, there were some priests who abused kids, but there are also some barbers, butchers, accountants, and doctors who abuse kids, so why all the focus on priests? I don’t know… I guess when you hold yourself up as the literal representative of God On Earth, you get held to a higher standard! Police represent themselves as Upholders Of The Law and demand the respect that such a position deserves. It makes it all the more bitter when some of them fail to live up to that standard.

Mass, have you ever seen this website? I know it’s a small number of police officers, but more people are paying attention.
http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/
Just saying.

Good evening Mas, Hope we can move on to the more fun stuff now :<)

I’ve been stopped by a cop today. I parked in the tow zone, he gave me a ticket within a two minutes I was away, he gave me a ticket. So far so good. I shouted to him walking away that he could wait an extra minute and drove off. He turned his light on, u-turned, pulled me off, and gave me a lecture. Then asked to see my ID. When I asked him what exactly is his probably cause, he said “if you’re going to be a smart ass, I’m going to right you a ticket for running a red light, and since it’s just you and me – no other witnesses – you’re going to just loose it in court.” Should I respect this asshole? In all of my interactions with the police – they _all_ were assholes on a power trip. That’s who they are. That’s who goes to work on the force. If a cop should die – I think they deserve it. If you’re on a power trip – at least some extra danger should come with it. The more – the merrier.

Thanks Mas!. I think dialog like this helps. This is a emotional subject for some. Like all groups there are great, good, and not so good people. Thanks again for your postings. I enjoy reading your thoughts!

When I took your class, I had great respect for you. NOW, it is going away very quickly. After reading the many articles, I think that you are getting behind the blue wall and maybe sipping the kool aid. You carry a badge, I like a lot of freedom lovers do not, we are on our own. THe many who carry the badge are on the side of the government. WAKE up the US of A has become a police state.

Thank you kindly Mas for the mention.

I’m simply repeating on here things I’ve noticed in my 14 years as a Peace Officer. Growing up black in Texas I was subjected to some minor prejudice (though not discrimination), however it paled in comparison to what my father experienced (coming back to his hometown from Basic Training in 1959, wearing the uniform of the United States Air Force but still not being able to eat in the front of a resturant with white folks, most of them who hadn’t lifted a finger in service to their state or nation….).

I mention that to demonstrate how lucky I’ve been and how society changed from then to know. Imagine my dismay when I put on a uniform that says “Police” and then experiencing more naked prejudice (though not discrimination, hard to discriminate on a guy with a gun lol) than I ever had from being black lol.

These experiances were what has driven me to examine prejudice in general, and while anti-cop sentiment (people hating you for what you choose as a profession)can’t hold a candle to more severe forms of prejudice like racism (people hating you for something beyond your control) it is STILL prejudice none the less.

And Prejudice takes some serious mental gymnastics to justify….

You can see it in some of the very 1st comments to this latest posting. “Denis” speaks about ONE PERSONAL ENCOUNTER with a cop who (if his story was true) was out of line, which then leads him to the brilliant conclusion that (quoting him) -In all of my interactions with the police – they _all_ were assholes on a power trip. That’s who they are. That’s who goes to work on the force. If a cop should die – I think they deserve it. If you’re on a power trip – at least some extra danger should come with it. The more – the merrier.”-

It’s no different from the guy who gets mugged once by a black guy than goes and joins the Klan lol. Because now suddenly, 40 million black folks are evil. Well, this Denis guy is calling for the deaths of cops not because of what we, as a group of 850,000 people have done, but because of his interactions with a very few (probably instigated by him, cop haters tend to be criminals, and it is standard for criminals to hate the people who stop then rather than examining themselves).
—

Another standard reaction of prejudiced people like cop haters is the “display of jealousy” along with the “righteous hero/freedom fighter complex”. You can see it in Richards comment directly above mind, basically, “You cops get privileges I don’t” and the government is the enemy.

This is how they justify in their own mind thoughts that they would otherwise recognize as silly.
—

I’ll also mention on more thing that clearly exposes the cop haters for what they are. Like all who hold irrational prejudices they ignore information or context that disputes what the want to believe.

Every year, the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics puts out a “top ten most dangerous jobs” list. You can find it easily using google. Some years cops rank as high as 9th or 10th, many years being a cop doesn’t make the top 10.

The cop haters pounce on that like piranhas smelling blood. “SEE, being a cop isn’t that dangerous, fishermen and cab drivers die more often”. This gives the cop hater a reason to disrespect cops…

…Until someone like me points out that those numbers are PER Capita , meaning based off the population. So last year only 30 commercial fishermen died compared to 150 cops, but their are only 30,000 commercial fishermen compared to 850,000 cops.

But that isn’t even the big kicker. the kicker is this: The cop haters say “well, it’s not even in the top 10” (incorrect, sometimes being a cop is in the top 10), but the fail to tell you that BLS tracks NINE THOUSAND JOB CATEGORIES. Being a cop averages 12th…out of 9000. A cop is 6 times more likely to die on the job that the average american. And this isn’t mentioning the lower general life expectancy of cops, the high stress levels which lead to higher suicide rates, the higher rates of both minor and major injury ect ect.

I could write a book about prejudice, and heck, one day I might.
—-

Well, I’m ranting now, so I’ll stop. Again, thank you Mas for the mention and for airing the topic. While I truly believe in live and let live, I also believe that blatant prejudice and ignorance MUST be challenged, no matter it’s target.

“…if people don’t know what to look for [in a video], it’s human nature that they won’t see it. If anyone would care to debate that, I’d be happy to offer a tutorial with examples.”

I’d be very interested, for whatever that’s worth. Not to debate it — I can claim no expertise of my own — but to read through a tutorial in blog form, if that’s possible. My two cents.

We are facing a common threat to our nation, there is no time to aruge about whohas what, or that a dozen or so cops out of 800,000 are jerks, some armed citizens are jerks too, and some break the law, (Which the anti’s pounce on) but the % to the whole is pretty small.
In 55 years, I’ve only had a run in with 2 jerk cops, and a phone call to their chief took care of the problem. The large majority are pretty good people

As an alumni of Ayoob’s coursework (taught by Mas himself), and a fan for a decade or more before, I have great respect and admiration for his ability and willingness to straddle both the law enforcement world and the law-abiding civilian world when it comes to firearms and training.

The US of A isn’t a police state unless you’re doing things you shouldn’t be doing with scarce few exceptions. Those who are hypersensitive to those exceptions are, frankly, outliers in the fringe of society as they should be.

Where I come from, the non-police outnumber the police by thousands to one and the police exist, to serve and protect, at the pleasure of the population. As without the support of the population, the police will soon find themselves either out of a job or worse should their behavior be too far out of line.

Mas tells it like it is and is very articulate.

When I see some crap complaining about police armament or training, I try to look at it from the perspective of a civilian: “Would I want the guys who are fighting good guys to be nicely trained and equipped to do battle with them so I don’t have to?”

Frankly, I’m well-trained, willing and able to fight it out with bad people intent on hurting me or my family, I’d rather leave that to the men and women in Blue.

A lot of people, especially the touchy-feely liberals, don’t seem to understand that not many bad people respect their Namby-pamby beliefs and words. They do respect the threat of force.

And if they don’t, the laws of physics will force their respect as they become perforated.

And Denis, you failed the attitude test. You let your mouth talk you into a second citation. Nice job.

John

“It has appalled me for these two weeks to see how many people said that because one cop might be bad, they had to assume that all cops were bad. And dammit, that’s just as horrible.

Some folks need to wake up and smell the hypocrisy.”

==================================

Mas, I don’t think that it is necessarily hypocrisy that drives many of those who you label cop haters. In large part I think it is fear. A vindictive cop can quite literally ruin your life over nothing, if he has a mind to. I don’t think we disagree on that point. There are not a majority of cops who would do such a thing, but,…and here is the rub…, it is not possible to tell who the bad cops are before they ruin your life. As a result many good honest people have a legitimate fear of cops. Statistically bad cops are in the minority but statistics are cold comfort when you find yourself on the receiving end.

Good cops are justifiably annoyed by being lumped into the same category as the bad ones. The only way out of this dilemma is to find a way to convince the good people who fear cops that their fears are unwarranted. In your annoyance you don’t seem to get that point. I don’t know the answer, but I submit that the condescension, sarcasm, and name calling I have seen here is counterproductive to your stated goal.

Oops. That should read “fighting BAD guys” in the fifth paragraph. Thanks.

Denis,

Has the thought ever occurred to you that they might not all be on power trips but that you were simply pushing most of their buttons?

Granted, they’re supposed to be the bigger men and resist the temptation to be a-holes in return, but they’re only human.

You said, “If a cop should die – I think they deserve it.”

No, sir. They aren’t all assholes. However, you most certainly are. Shame on you.

~James from Phoenix

To say that there is a developing problem would be an understatement. Ordinary and law abiding people now feel threatened by law enforcement officers. Their fears are not the result of paranoias but in many cases directly linked to information that they have access to, in audio and visual form, which indicate to them that they are a risk when in the presence of law enforcement. I don’t but I’m a ex-cop and understand the job but I have seen conduct by officers that would have put me in a federal prison previous to our new found belief that everyone must be considered a potential terrorist and then prove they are not, before we treat them with the respect you would show your mom and dad.

If this continues and expands, and it is, the outcome will be very predictable. The constitution and bill of right exists because we wish to have freedom, liberty and protection from our government/s. When government begins to trample it’s people and their rights and refuses to abide by those documents because some court said it’s OK, when officers no longer see their duty as the protection of the constitution and those rights but serve only the desires and interests of government and politicians, there will be trouble. Trouble the size of which no street office can imagine unless they served in Beirut during the incursion there. We are Americans. We are used to freedom. We don’t like anyone, including the gendarmes telling us what we can and can’t do, as long as we’re not hurting anyone else. Step in between liberty and the American people and you become target numero uno and you will have no friends at all when the chips are down.

The oath you take as an officer is one of service to the constitution. It is not a loyalty oath to the political class, as the average politician believes it is. Judges often decide a case based upon political considerations and not based in law. If you enforce a law that is counter to the constitution and bill of rights regardless of who says otherwise, you are assisting in the destruction of the very thing you are sworn to protect and it doesn’t matter if you rationalize your support of that evil, by stating that you were just following orders and doing what you were told to do. None of that will matter to the victims that your actions will subsequently create. You might not want to hear this but the fact is that there is a problem and a division and you are either on one side of the other and your choice is a very serious matter.

I don’t normally chime in here and I am not a police officer, but some of the tone here is just asinine. Any of you who think that America has become a police state should try living abroad for a few years as I have. You should also study your history a little better and realize that the world didn’t begin when you reached the age of self-awareness.

For example, how many states allow citizens to carry concealed today as opposed to 60 years ago? Am I to suppose cops of the day just figured that the seconded amendment was good enough? I doubt the case law of the time would support that argument. Ask an older black man today if America is more of a police state in 2011 than it was during the 1960’s. What do you think his answer would be? There may be YouTube postings of cops abusing their authority and that does anger me, but I haven’t seen footage of the American government’s sanctioned use of dogs and fire hoses against people in a while. Is anyone here old enough to have lived through prohibition? Damn I’m glad that was repealed. Many of my generation (mid 40’s) have celebrated the cops of those days who busted folks “just trying to have a good time”. It does make for good cinema, doesn’t it?

No doubt there are some bad apples and many police officers could use additional training in the public relations area, but that goes for just about everyone in the public service sector. Judging simply by the responses to Mr. Ayoob’s comments (not a statistical opinion poll by any means), the “us v. them” perception cuts both ways. But it’s difficult to discern who cast the first stone, and at this point, probably not relevant. Still, the cops out there need to understand that the pubilc holds you to a higher standard, deal with that or find another profession.

I do believe this: laws are to be challenged in court, not on the street. If you willfully break a law, man-up and accept responsibility; or better yet challenge it in court if you feel it’s unjust. Getting into a pissing match with a police officer on the street isn’t going to turn out well for you, even if you think that officer is behaving badly.

Well, I’ve rambled on enough here and that’s just my opinion anyway. Everyone else is entitled to theirs.

I once and for all would like to end the myth that the police, and/or fire departments are the first responders. Last I checked when the s— hits the fan the police have to be called by the actual first responders, the citizens that happen to be there already. So how can they be referred to as first responders if they have to be called and alerted to the requirement of their presence? I personally have called the police once in my life, and it was the worst mistake I have made to this point. It will never happen again, at least not until the situation is dealt with, and under control. In the 18 months since I’ve lived in my current house there have been three attempted home invasions, with a grand total of zero calls to the police, and I still have every last piece of property that I had before any of these encounters, the same can not be said of the home invasions that I have suffered by those in uniform, whose criminal activity is sponsored, subsidized, and encouraged by the government.

Denis ~ By your own admission you broke the law. The LEO wrote you a ticket. That’s his job. Then you chose to make a smart remark (wrong decision) and given your predisposition to distrust cops you should have expected the reaction you got. If in fact he did then write you a bugus ticket, he was wrong but if you had kept your mouth shut you would have been done. It is every LEO’s choice to put themselvs in danger every day and when people like you show the level of disrespect you demonstrated, maybe he overreacted. As for your comment that cops are “assholes on a power trip” and “If a cop should die – I think they deserve it”, just tells me that you need to do some serious soul searching about this subject! Are all cops perfect ~ No! Are all cops human ~ Yes!
Let them do their job ~ Cooperate in every way you can ~ You will find that when you respect them, they will respect you!

Mas, When this string of blog articles it initially looked like the beginning of your own “Zombo” moment. The way you and your readers have handled it has been pretty good. There has been lots of give and take and lots of food for thought. I’ve always considered myself lucky to live in a community with pretty good law enforcement. My personal encounters have always been proffesional. That said, they do make some bonehead mistakes now and then, face palm stuff but nothing horrific.

I do have a couple of co-workers that would fit the definition of cop haters, but it is because they keep getting tickets (harrassed in their view) for speeding. Not the one or two mile penny-ante stuff, the 15-20 mile kind of problem.

Now for those of us that might not like how our local sherriff’s department or police department is run it can be changed through elections. Elect a new sherrif, or new city council. Change the laws, have a voice at city coucnil or county supervisor meetings. As Dave Duffy has mentioned in an op-ed, if your local force is really bad and unresponsive to the public, look at defunding through the budget process. At any rate, we shouldn’t just bitch about it.

“My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we’ll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it.”

Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn

Some of this diatribe against the police is, I think, symptomatic of the widespread breakdown of respect for the law and our society in general. It seems to me that the people who enforce the law are being cast as the problem when in fact, they are the proud and the few who will do the jobs most Americans won’t do.
I could not imagine the chaos that would result, even in my small town in Oregon, if there was not a police presence.
Those who report a bad experience with a cop would do well to examine closely their own attitude at the time it happened. Each time they stop a citizen it’s like a box of chocolates. They never know what they’re gonna get.

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2011/05/worlds-largest-street-gang.html

Some of your finest at work.

@Denis- here’s an idea. Don’t park in the tow zone!! You think he’s on a power trip maybe you should just take a good look in the mirror. You wronged first. He did his job. You made a smart ass comment, and personally I applaud his response. Sadly he has to deal with jerks like you on a hourly basis. He’s a regular guy out doing his job and guys like you think he should kiss your butt? Get real and get over yourself. If you don’t like interacting with the police, then don’t break the law. It’s that simple.

Hello Mas, I am one of those who have never posted before, but feel the need to do so now. For those who think that we live in a police state, you should go visit one before you make that comment. I spent 20 years and 5 days as a slave to the US Navy to protect your right to speak your mind, but you really should get your facts straight before you open you mouth.
Yes there are bad cops out there, and as was mentioned barbers, accountants, lawyers, bankers, ditch diggers, mechanics, the list goes on. They are the rotten apples who slip through the cracks to ruin the cider. My mother was a cop, I was a dispatcher for a time, they aren’t all bad. Having a police officer in the house, I was raised to respect the law.
If you don’t want a ticket, don’t park in the tow zone. When someone breaks into you home, or vandalizes your car, I bet one of the first thing you will do is call 911.
Some of you need to get a clue.

In case anyone is interested. Suprise, AZ Officer fired for suspicion of DUI.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/surprise/articles/2011/05/12/20110512surprise-police-officer-fired-suspicion-dui.html

Evidence that yes, procedures are in place and police don’t always immediately close ranks and protect their own.

I think that people are becoming more distrustful of government. The police are a part of government that enforces laws. As people distrust laws made or perhaps not enforced in a uniform manner, they in turn are distrustful of police.

Our laws only work when we have a common standard moral base from which we can work from. As our moral base declines so does the ablity for our laws to work. In turn we get stronger laws that are less effective. Which only fuels a larger power grab that causes more mistrust. We try for a political solution for a moral problem. The police are caught in the problem as they work for the poltical system that is not working.

I have had my share of run-ins with bad cops. On one occasion, an officer hinted that if I were to “turn in” my 9mm to him (a nice Wather P99), he would be able to “look the other way” and not arrest me for it because he could tell that I was “a nice kid”. He didn’t realize that I knew the firearms laws here in Florida and knew that he was completely making up what he was threatening to arrest me for (a supposed felony which would have screwed up my life royally to be arrested for, even if it didn’t exist). Fortuneately, there were plenty of other officers not far away and I was able to get a few of them involved in the conversation and the asshole dropped it rather than have them involved. He eventually gave my piece back and walked away. Up until I engaged the other officers in the conversation, they hadn’t been paying attention to us. It would have been much worse if they weren’t there.

You see, in any given grouping of people, there will be that 10% who are assholes. Sometimes you run into them, often not since on the other side of the equasion are the 90% that are good people who are just trying to do their jobs and get home safely. My ex-wife is trying to indoctrinate our kids into this thinking that cops are bad. I make it a point to tell them that they should always trust our law enforcement officers but know the law and know their rights in case they come across one of the few bad ones.

@Denis: Wishing death to all cops because one asshole cop threatened to give you a ticket for something you didn’t do? Wow. Over-react much? Yes, there are power tripping asshole cops; but they are far outnumbered (9 to 1 in my theory) by the good guys.

s

The militarization of the police in the United States has less to do with uniform and gear than it does with the training they are receiving and who is conducting the training. I have personally been in numerous law enforcement shooting and tactics classes that are taught by either currently serving military instructors, in conjuction with members of the military (including special operations) and foreign military personnel. The transfer of knowledge is not a bad thing in and of itself. Military tactics can be adapted to certain tactical appllications in the high risk environment. Some of these tactics can also be successfully taught to civilians who may find themselves at ground zero in an active shooter situation when we (the police) will probably not be there in time to stop it.
As officers and especially as trainers, we have to guard against a blanket mindset of “us against them” that can have serious blowback like we have seen when officers or even SWAT teams improperly apply tactics without making certain that their use is really justified. The very fact that SWAT even shows up is an escalation in force. This can be both good and bad depending upon whether it is justified or not. Not every LE mission or situation requires SWAT. When we do screw something up along these lines, the camera is always there. It makes a very poor impression upon the public and it breeds distrust and anger among the public toward us.
It is my opinion that we have to earn the trust of the public we are suppose to serve every day by really serving them. That means making sure they know and see that we respect their Constitutional rights and that we value them as the community we serve. Do I think it is important to remind myself of the oath I have taken 3 times in my life? Yes. It reorients me and the guys around me that are doing the same to keep the “us against them” mentality away even in the day to day grime that can breed such a mentality. It motivates me to help citizens understand that they are the real “line” that crime and evil behavior stops with and that our success as officers is directly predicated upon the willingness of the citizenry to help us. We as the police can’t afford to ignore this fact.

Mas,
I really enjoy your blogs, and podcasts…extremely informative. I’d really like to hear more from you, about some informative topics. This latest thread is going nowhere fast.
I love the fact that you are responding to your critics here, but as I see it, there are some you just can’t get through to.
I usually don’t comment (this is my first), but after reading what Richard posted (May 12th 7:37am) i had to speak up.
Some people can’t, and never will understand what it takes to live a life dedicated to serving others.
What i see happening is simply a product of our evolving culture and media coverage. We see more and more what “Bad Cops” do, but very little of what the norm is. The old saying of “a bad apple spoils a bunch” can’t be overstated in this case.

This is an easy topic to get down in the weeds on, and i’ll stop.
I will end with this.
I do not fear the police, or think anyone should. I say that as a Law abiding citizen. However, people who do fear the police may do so because they have something to hide.
I live by a simple rule, “Don’t go where you shouldn’t go, and don’t do what you shouldn’t do.” Follow this, and you won’t have anything to worry about.

I could go on, but i’m sure i’ve said enough.

Mas, thank you for all you do and keep up the good work.

-Bert

There are two types of cops. Bad cops and good cops who turn a blind eye to the bad cops. It is just part of the us vs them police culture. Police abuse is regularly covered up and excused because “he’s a cop. He’s one of us.”. DUI cops given courtesy rides home. Off duty cops pulling guns on people over minor disputes, etc. But they’re still cops and you are defending them. When the system excuses bad cops the system is corrupt and anyone who is part of that system is guilty.

Denis, Richard are you two guys serious? You two give the rest of us, who aren’t police officers a bad name. I know you both aren’t serious, just seeking comments and more than likely are anti-gun plants, trolls or both. So, for you Law Enforcement types, don’t believe the crap that is being slung around, those guys/gals probably either are liberal anti-gun plants or those who got arrested/ticketed for, surprise, breaking the law. I carry and support L.E. Hell Mas, it appears that there are some that just want to complain, would do so no matter what. Let’s get back to gun talk. Thank you for your service. Blue wall my eye…LOL.

Mas, you seem like a guy who’ll listen, and I’ve said this before…

Why is heresay by a cop against a citizen enough to convict a citizen… yet video evidence by a citizen against a cop is not enough to convict the cop?

Please stop accusing others of hypocrisy when you seem to be running for president of it.

My middle son, now in his thirties, is somewhar mentally challanged. He lives independently and owns and drives a car. His apartment was burgalized and his car stolen. My son developed a lot of information. A quality Denver PD Detective took the case, used the information to identify the thieves, got my son’s possessions back from a pawn shop and identified the car thief. The car has been recovered.

Four arrests have been made and a warrant is out for a fifth person.

My point is that this story is probably more common than not. My son, by not being a passive victim, gave the Detective good leads. Public helps police help public.

I think I find it more troubling that some people who may have had multiple bad encounters with law enforcement, question a man of your integrity Mr. Ayoob. I have heard nothing EVER negative from you about citizens rights and appreciate everything you have done for gun rights. I am a white, clean cut, former military man in a somewhat small rural type community, so maybe my opinion is less valid as possibly someone who would not be suspected unjustly of being a criminal. However, I think when we start to just label everyone as an enemy and run with our emotions, we start to become that which we despise.

To all here,

I’ve had the honor of training under Mas, as well as socializing with him on a few occasions. I find him to be a person of honor who understands the human condition, as well as being the first to admit that he doesn’t know everything. Along with that, I think most here would be amazed at the amount of research and reading he does, as well as how much of his time and money he has given to defend innocent gun owners in criminal cases.

Yes, he is a police officer, and that is something he is proud of (and should be.) He’s also a legal advocate, a teacher, a writer, a business owner and a father. And I don’t think any one of those things in itself defines him, but like the rest of us, all combines to make a whole.

I’ve actually been impressed at his willingness to listen and take in the information during this debate, and that should serve as an indication that he is doing his best to remain impartial and look at the issue with perspective. So give him that, and try to at least stay civil.

Personally, I’m not a fan of the “attitude” I see displayed by many younger police officers and I don’t like the direction I see that going. But in their defense, I don’t like the attitude I see displayed by most people half my age, and if they interact with police like they do me, then it’s no wonder cops have the attitude they do.

…and lets be honest, our society is dropping IQ points with each generation, and those same idiots who don’t have enough sense (or can’t be bothered) to keep your ice cream seprate from your hot deli food when bagging your groceries, are the same pool police departments are having to draw from.

Things are tough all over, and it’s hard to find good help these days. So perhaps it would help us to remember that this is a chicken/egg thing – bad cops come from a bad society. Cops are going to be as good, or as bad, as the teachers, road repair crews, librarians, garbage men, mechanics, doctors or farmers in any given society. And truth be told, there is a lack of quality in most professions in 2011 America – police are nothing special.

Denis, regarding your comment that in all your interactions wtih the police, they were all assholes on a power trip. The common denominator in all those interactions was…. you. Perhaps the problem doesn’t lay with the police as much as it does with you. Perhaps you are the real problem, not the police. Based on your comment about thinking that police officers deserve to die, I would say that my assessment has a high probability of being correct. Recognizing the root cause of a problem is the first step in correcting it. Perhaps you need to recognize what kind of person you truly are.

I don’t hate cops but I do find it hard to respect them. They do things that would get the normal citizen arrested and they don’t even get a slap on the wrist for it. Case in point…Police officers using their weapons in an unsafe and dangerous manner in Denver a few years ago. Remember when those Buffalo got loose and the police started shooting at them with their 223 Cal, “patrol” rifles ( when WE have them they are called “assault” rifles)? They not only hit the animals but they also hit parked cars and houses. Now…had a NON police person done the same, they would have been charged with a crime..several in fact. Here in Phoenix a while back several police officers shot at an armed felon behind some apartments. They fired WAY too many rounds and missed with the majority. But, they did get their man…and a homeless guy what was asleep in a near by park. Once again…nothing happened to the officers. THAT’S WRONG! They should be held to at least the same standard as those they are supposed to protect..but they are NOT.

Much respect goes out to all those who serve and protect. Thanks for holding the line, protecting those that happily stumble through life until something goes horribly wrong.

Thank you Mas, for being an objective forum…but, I must say, post from the likes of Denis, above, taste of falseness. I get it…parked illegally for only two minutes/ Speeding at 85 mph for only two minutes/ threatening you neighbor with a gun for only two minutes/ Why can’t those silly cops just wait another minute or two? Please Denis…get a life….and believe me, if you had anything courageous about you, you would never have written your last two sentences. That is the statement of a coward, and ignoramous…Jack

And to Richard, above…you have no idea how many of us LEO’s are Oath Keepers, now, do you…..Jack

Wow, Dennis, maybe acting like a jerk brings out the jerk in others. You know, I go to work every day, and there are times when people there get a bit frazzled and act like jerks too. But my experience is that civility usually brings out the best in people. Do you know what my worst experience was today? It was having file qualifications rules changed for files that I have to have in to corporate tomorrow. Every single office I walked into today, it never occurred to me that I might not walk out of. I imagine the same basic experience was yours too. And please, spare me the BS about the perks they get wearing the badge.

I’ve met cops who are literally acting like jerks, maybe 5% of the time. (I give them the benefit of the doubt, I don’t know what they just experienced 30 minutes ago). The other 95% respond to the smile and politeness with a smile and politeness and a very professional attitude. It’s AMAZING… Maybe you should try it!

Oh and you know what else? When you are honest about doing 52 in a 35, you make his day and maybe even drive away with a warning, like I did (multiple times too).

Have a great day officer and watch out for the crazy people! (My standard parting line.)

Mas,

Thank you for letting the cop haters have their say. I know you find it incredibly offensive and wrong-headed, but you show the integrity that we all should by respecting their right to think it.

It is a very knotty issue. I think people take it too far – turn certain specific issues that need to be addressed into a global hatred of police. And police push back too far, too – the blue line is a very real thing, as I’ve noticed reading cop forums whenever someone brings up “professional courtesy.”

When it comes down to it, there are a number of things that a cop can do because they are corrupt, a jerk, or just on accident that will cause them a lot of paperwork and maybe some lost pay, possibly even a lost job, that would put anyone else in jail. There are good reasons for many of those things, and police do a hard job, but it can rub people the wrong way.

No knock raids are one of those sorts of problems. Using SWAT to serve dangerous warrants is a great thing – I don’t want cops to be killed. But “they might flush some weed down the toilet” shouldn’t be enough of an excuse by itself to use them. Look at reason.com’s coverage and investigation of raids, how often they happen, how often they get the wrong house, and for what petty offenses… there’s a procedural problem there. It doesn’t mean that all cops are evil, but it’s a problem that needs a discussion.

Unfortunately, the “cops are evil” vs the immediate (and completely understandable) defensive reaction from most cops prevents much of a real discussion from occurring.

But again, thank you for trying, at least.

I find some of the vitriol stated here pretty sad. While I’ve never been a LEO, as an EMT working with an ambulance service, I’ve had lots of daily contact with them. Like the real-world, most are great hard working people, some can be a-holes like in every job.

I give even the few grumpy ones the benefit of the doubt, since even I have bad days too.

After reading the many opinions on both sides of this subject, all I can say is, judge only those L.E.O.s you have personally had contact with. As a former cop, I gave everyone I met the benefit of the doubt no matter the situation (without sacrificing safety), until that person shows his/her butt. Then I treat them accordingly.
From my personal experience working for two P.D.s, one in Colorado and the other in Florida, I can say most of the officers are good people, although quite a few should not be cops. About 25% are on power trips and would do anything to crawl up the blue ladder. Then, there are the 5% who are total scum.

Sweet Jesus. Here we go again. I cannot believe that so many cop haters read this post. What the hell is going on? I read the post because I find Mas knowledgable and enlightening, and would never use the comments section to say a dead cop is a good thing as good ol Denis seems to indicate. Scarry stuff coming out of this comments section from my perspective.

Yup, there are some police yahoos out there that think they are god. But, from my few interactions with the police, I have found that there are many more who are the opposite and are caring and understanding. I have found this to be the case with LEOs with some years on them and less with newbies. Maybe more education is warranted to supplement an increase in communication between law enforcement and the public.

Mas,

I’ve followed the blog through out this discussion and your posts. As a former LEO, and as a long-time NRA instructor and 4H Shooting Sports instructor, I’ve seen multiple sides to this discussion first hand. My current day job is collegiate teaching and consulting in areas of visual design, marketing, and public relations.

While I think there is a difference between perception and reality, I think due to officer safety, liability concerns, and zero-tolerance practices; police in general are approaching the job differently than in the Barney Fife days or even the 70s and 80s. That, combined with the visual appearance change (dress uniform shirts, clip-on ties, polished shoes to BDUs and boots) has directly affected public perception of law enforcement.

While there have always been a few “bad cops”, the 24-hour news cycle and internet coverage exaggerates the reality to affect the perception. Most news agencies don’t report the millions of good things officers do every day as part of their “routine” duties (no such thing as a routine day in a cop’s life).

I especially focus on LEO interaction with my Ohio CCW students to let them understand the viewpoint from behind the badge. Be polite, keep your hands in plain sight, treat the LEO with respect even if you disagree. The side of the road during a traffic stop is no place to plea or argue your case. I believe that showing respect to the LEO will have as much affect on their discretion of writing or not writing you a ticket as your argument.

Some day that man or woman in uniform may be the one pulling you out of a burning car, or staying up all night searching for your lost child, arresting a drunk driver that would have killed you the next night had they still been on the road, or checking a suspicious vehicle in your neighborhood at 2am YOU NEVER EVEN KNEW WAS THERE!

Unfortunately, the public doesn’t perceive what they don’t see.

Best,

Dann in Ohio

First, most police officers (maybe even “nearly all”) do a difficult and dangerous job pretty well.

However, I think there are two especially relevant points.

First, police officers hold a place of special trust. When that trust is betrayed — especially if there is a perception that the “system” is covering for a corrupt officer — it is a harsh blow to the credibility of all who serve. This is very similar to the Catholic priest sex-abuse scandal.

Next, as a law abiding private citizen, I perceive that I have almost nothing to gain from an interaction with a LEO. The best that can happen is that I am released to go about my business, which is what would happen if I never ran into one to start with. I suppose the LEO might say, “Well, gee, that [insert demographic here] was a nice guy; maybe I’ll think better of CCW permit holders/[profession]/[state of residency] etc in the future.” That’s a pretty darn abstract and minor benefit though.

The worst case is that the cop is on a fishing expedition, seeking to build RAS to roll into PC. This could lead to a time consuming search, an arrest, or even trumped up charges. There are many laws which have no mens rea nor actus rea or which are exceedingly vague and dependent on officer discretion.

In my mind, the best thing to do as an individual is to avoid the encounter altogether. I’ve worked with cops, I’ve shot at the range with cops, and I generally value what they do for “society” as a whole — but that doesn’t mean I have any sort of positive feeling if I were to have an interaction on the street (even a random, friendly one), at a checkpoint, at the airport, or so on. If the police could find some way to make casual interaction more positive — perhaps through “community policing” efforts — and less threatening I’d probably feel differently. I really prefer to have a collegial and non-adversarial relationship built on mutual trust with local police, which is one thing I like about the place I live now.

Sir,
I currently have 18 years sworn service as an officer and several before that as a reserve officer I have worked as city officer and now as a uniformed federal officer. I am also a second generation cop who was exposed to many an old time 60’s/70’s/early80s cop. We have good and bad in service as police/peace officers. I have tried to start a comment on this subject on every blog you have made and I get to ranting as it is a sore point with me. I understand why even traditional areas of the public police have had support in get nervous when dealing with officers on routine interactions these days. I’ve told my own son to always be polite, never resist but never to consent to anything he doesn’t have to by law, no searches, no questioning, nothing because to be honest you never know if you are going to get a decent officer who is there for he right reasons or an asshat / assclown on a Judge Dredd power trip. There is a problem, it is a leadership/management problem, there is a problem that we allow little behavioral problems to grow into things that bite agencies in the Ares at a later date. Meanwhile the good cops are overshadowed by the bad cops. Law enforcement now also as established itself to a degree where we get the people due to better pay and benefits that just want the steady pay/ benefits / retirement and do as little as they can or do whatever the person with them does. They are not here to do police work just collect a check.
I realize you have amazing contacts due to your writing, and your training work but you see the top 10% of us where ever you go, you never see the other 90% we have the full spectrum of good and bad . As has been seen in the last 10 -12 years across the country even the big departments with dedicated Internal affairs units have trouble keeping a lid on the lesser elements in our profession.
It is our lack of two way honest non pc communication with the people we serve that shoots ourselves in the foot. Cops are worse than doctors about policing ourselves and explaining ourselves to our fellow citizens. Gun writers and writer cops in open publication like you do a better job of explaining why we do what we do than our officials do. There is not only a legitimacy to this school thought about 50% of it we cause. We can control that 50% of the equation and we should. As I tell the young guys We are of the people not above the people.

Denis, I really think that if that cop had taken you out back of a nearby building and beat the crap out of your worthless ass, I would have bought him a couple of cold beers when he got off work.

Mas, I was one of the writers who talked about their cop friend saying he was being taught in the academy that it’s a “us against them” life for LEO’s. It must have gotten to him, because he quit after about 10 years. He still acts like a paranoid officer on duty even while he’s at home with wife and dogs, so it might that he’s a little squirrelly. Come to think of it, he always was a whole lot squirrelly. And I meant no disrespect either to you or officers in general. I’ve been reading everything you have written for over 30 years now, and have learned much from doing so.

The things a cop is required to do.

When I was a Deputy Sheriff, I underwent training by the State and then by an experienced officer in my county. It was an eye opener that most citizens will never experience. I won’t go into everything but here are some of the points that will be news to a majority of people who have never suffered the responsibility of the job.

1. Always know where you are. This applies both to your exact location and your legal obligation to the law and the oath you took. Do you always know where you are ?

2. No one else is coming ! Working in a rural setting often meant that I had to work at a tactical disadvantage contrary to my training simply because no backup was available. I have cleared a house many times alone, while the family stood by outside, because no other officer was available.

3. Always give the suspect the benefit of a doubt in a borderline situation. If he is truly a criminal , he will do it again. I never wrote a citation that did not result in a conviction on some level as a result of this policy. We did not write speeding tickets unless they were at least ten miles over the limit.

4. In a situation where an officer comes under fire, he is required to consider his back ground before returning fire . His assailant does not care what the officers background is, therefor the officer may have to leave cover to protect the people behind him. Think about that for just a minute!

5. You get to be the one who knocks on a parents door in the middle of the night and tells a mother that their child is never coming home again. How’s that for a power trip ?

6. Every time you go to court , you are subject to have your actions criticized by a judge and jury and you get to go every month not just once and a while when you get a traffic citation.

The next time you thing the cop has it made and you are the victim because you got a citation , consider it from his side of the street.