Looking through the relatively thin pickings of meaningful new gun designs in this year’s crop, I noticed that one I mentioned here, the Glock 42, a seven-shot .380 pistol, got a ton of comment on the internet. Much of that commentary was on the theme of “if I’m going to carry a gun that size, I’d want it in full power 9mm Parabellum, not a wussy .380 a/k/a 9mm Short.”
Let me make it clear: I’m not a .380 fan. In 40-plus years of studying gunfights – not just reading books, but personally debriefing survivors and going over autopsy reports – I’ve come to consider the .380 marginal if not sub-marginal as a defensive weapon. I’ve just seen too many cases of the bad guy sucking up bullet after .380 bullet in vital zones and still coming. But, I’ve also seen cases like the recent controversial Tampa shooting, in which a senior citizen dropped the man he shot with a single .380 to the chest. (I’ve seen one-shot stops with well-placed .22 bullets, too, but I don’t recommend a .22 for self-defense, either.)
If you go on the gun forums, you’ll find that a recurrent theme is “how much is enough to use for self-defense, and how much is too much?” And you’ll discover that there’s some ego investment in those discussions.
The meme seems to be, “If you carry more (more powerful ammo, more cartridges, even more guns) than I do, you’re paranoid. And if you carry less than I do, you’re a pathetic sheeple.”
Oh, good Lord…
First, if you’re carrying a seven-shot .380, you are better prepared to defend yourself against a homicidal armed criminal than a high 90th percentile of the population, who are carrying nothing at all which could realistically stop such an attack.
But, second, if that attack actually comes, you might wish you had something a little more than than a .380. The saying is: “You’ll never meet a gunfight survivor who says he wishes he’d had fewer, less powerful rounds.”
Having shot the new Glock 42 with more .380 rounds than most folks outside the Glock factory, I was impressed with its ease of operation, extremely mild “kick,” and accurate delivery of rapid fire. There are a helluva lot of people – petite females, the elderly, the disabled – who will shoot faster and straighter with this gun than with something more powerful. There, I think, is its market niche…wait a year or two, and see, but I expect it to become a best-seller.
Will I carry one? Probably not. Whenever a gun magazine asks me to test a .380, I feel like Ralph Nader test-driving a Corvair for Motor Trend. But as someone who trains others to shoot, I am going to see about buying my test sample to keep it on hand so students who don’t think or function as I do, can try it.
As I write this, I’m wearing a different Glock pistol. It’s much more powerful than a .380, and holds far more cartridges than the slim little G42, and I have a spare “high capacity” magazine on the opposite hip. That works for me, but I have to accept that some other people need something different to fit their abilities, their lifestyles, their dress codes.
God save us from BS memes. A center hit with a .380 beats a miss or even a peripheral hit with a .44 Magnum.
Something is better than nothing.
Discussion invited.
Firing one handed, I found recoil quite controllable with the new little Glock .380.
Note the best four of these 5 shots from benchrest at 25 yards. The one outlier may have been unnoticed human error. Sights have since been drifted for center hits. This is unusually good accuracy for pistols in this class.
Nobody ever discusses the reaction on the BG upon being “shot at”. I suspect that the average BG doesn’t know much about guns. Isn’t doing some sort of ninja chronographing of the round as it flys his way. Analyzing the ballistics of the projectile and working back to the cartridge and the gun. Or that he is doing a precise round count even. So if the defensive gun is a 22, 32, 380 or 44mag something else is at work.
I do bet you, that when the intended target of said BG points in his general direction and a flash of light and thunderous noise occurs, that his first thought is “DUCK”. His second thought is NOT “let me run right into the maw of this dragon”. His second thought most likely is “how do I get the hell out of here”.
Of course there is the odd few BGs who are, well, REALLY BGs. The ex-SF guy gone bad for instance. Like in the Miami shootout. Or recently the mil guy who held up a bank in LA. Or the cornered career criminal who will go away for life if he is taken down in the bedroom of his apartment like in NYC. Or a Sammy the Bull caught in the act etc….
But then I ain’t no cowboy either. So I’m not preparing to ride Bodacious or Little Yellow Jacket. Once that first round goes down range I’m beating feet. Or in my best internet warrior speak “I’m going to increase my engagement separation will all due speed”. My shots are not solely with the intention to destroy and kill all opponents. I don’t have the societal and legal protections of a cop. I DON’T want to end up like George Zimmerman. I grew up watching
Swamp Fox. Run away to fight another day.
SteveL,
Much wisdom in what you say. There are no absolutes on these topics, only personal experience and knowledge shared from other’s experiences. Everything else must be scrutinized and sources investigated.
I love the .45acp, a superb defense pistol cartridge, but it is what it is. It is, like all handgun cartridges, a compromise between power and portability. If you know you’re going into a deadly force event, you want much more, if not, you want it for peace of mind, just in case.
The .45acp has a reputation that has grown to mythical proportions over the years. I’ve had people tell me “if you hit him in the hand with a .45, he’s going down” as if there is something supernatural about this cartridge that gives it a power to defy the laws of physics and biology. I’m surprised it has not been considered for a booster for launching spacecraft.
Your experiences should be respected, as they are real world, not word of mouth.
Thank you for your service brother.
Lew, in answer to your question the two that come to mind are the work of Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, and the more recent research of Greg Ellifretz. Google should get you to both of them.
Lew,
This might help;http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
P.S; above source (Ellifretz) wrote a very interesting conclusion to his research.
I’ve read good things about the newer .380 loads, BUT>>>
How much .380 ammo is actually out there? I haven’t seen much; indeed, .38SPl is hard to find in my neck of the woods.
The sweetest pistol in the world isn’t much good without ammo. 🙁
I was just wondering……….Why has Glock skipped a number??? The Glock models go from the G17 all the way to the G39. Now, they have the G41 and the G42. What happened to the G40????
You’re right, Mas. It’s got to be one of the most frustrating aspects of discussing guns, tactics or ballistics with fellow gun owners/carriers for me: everyone comes their own personal assessment of what fits their needs and then characterizes those who carry less as wimps and those who carry more as crazies. That’s why I tend to avoid gun people and the inevitable ego contests these days.
As for the .380, it is better than nothing for sure, but back during the concealed weapons boom of the ’90s I decided once and for all that, for me and my body type anyway, there was no need to go smaller than 9mm, a caliber in which very compact guns are chambered.
I actually don’t own anything smaller than a .45 ACP Commander. I just can’t forget Jim Cirillo saying that if you’re ever going to face a violent felon bent on killing you, you’ll immediately regret packing a cozy snubnose and desperately want that big and heavy .44 magnum that you always thought too big and heavy. Paraphrasing here because I never could locate the exact quote again, but I’m sure you also remember his words. IF I’m not going to need a gun, then I don’t even need to carry. Now IF I am going to be in the situation (and how would I know beforehand?), I want the biggest stick I can manage, period.
Mas, after reading the shooting incident in that Tampa theather, and the retired county attorney, finally saying “Well, he wouldn’t have broken any law since a retired Policeman can carry concealed, but he would still be subject to expulsion”, sorta makes the investigation sound like a “Cluster F**K” by the Keystone Cops.
Fortuately, for all concerned, the shooter calmed down and only shot the unlucky guy that made too much noise while “Texting” his daughter.
Just goes to show that “Texting” can be deadly outside of a “vehicle” too?
Does sound like the victum, had he been armed too, might have been able get off a shot, or two, before surcuming to his fatal wound however, which does validate your accessment of the one shot stopping power of the .380 cartridge as well?
Matt, most of us think they skipped over “40” in the model number series to avoid confusion. A model called “Glock 40” would sound as if someone was describing one of the several “Glock .40” pistols made for the .40 S&W cartridge, the models 22, 23, 24, 27, and 35.
Personally, I think they should come out with their own .22 rimfire version and give it that model designation. I’ve said for a long time that if the Glock 22 is going to be a .40, the Glock 40 should be a .22. 🙂
Referring back to an earlier post . . .
I find it particularly interesting that Ruger is now offering the LC380 pistol. It is basically their “really compact” 9mm, chambered for the .380 round. The obvious benefit of this is that the LC380 offers a somewhat larger grip area than the tiny LCP pocket gun, which will certainly provide better control for those who have limited flexibility and strength in their hands.
I think it’s a great idea, allowing potential buyers to more readily fit their gun to their abilities. I’ll make no comment on the “power” arguments related to the .380 vs 9mm discussion. It’s just pretty obvious to me that Ruger has given this some thought and easily come up with a smallish-but-not-tiny pistol to allow folks more choices when attempting to “gun up”.
JMHO
SteveL – I agree that a SWAT scenario vs a civilian encounter in the parking lot is quite different. And an “anywhere” shot is very broad in its implications.
I was tutored by law enforcement, and thus encouraged to meet deadly force with deadly force times 10. While no answer fits all, in the final analysis, I want maximum effect.
There is a saying, “Shot placement makes the difference, caliber makes the decision.”
Well said, Mas. People get tunnel vision in more places than a gunfight. I made the mistake of getting a snubby .38 airweight some years ago. Recoil and blast bothered her a lot.
Looking at this and the LC380 as possible replacements for that gun.
For me,
Bigger is always better,
More is better than less,
Something is better than nothing, and
Sometimes, a .32 will do.
Anyone considering a .380 should see this series of video tests: http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/ Even my favorite Hornady Critical Defense rounds did poorly in the short barreled pistols (is there any other kind in .380?) He did find a few rounds that hit the sweet spot but you are out of luck if your pistol won’t feed hollow-points. Note that FMJ is useless as a defensive round even though, yes, it will kill people eventually.
If I were to follow some of the mentality out there I would only have one hammer in my toolbox – a 6 pound maul. If you use the right tool for the job there is always a place for one of these little guys. A few well placed bullets may buy you the time you need to trade up or get out. I think this would be a fitting backup to my 1911.
Yeah, I have big guns: my S&W 500 mag would be my choice in a gunfight if I didn’t have one of my long guns which would undoubtedly be better. But I carry 24/7 and the little Seecamp .32 in my back pocket is so soothing to me it is indescribable. I have a .380 Seecamp, but shooting that tiny thing is pretty hoggy so I went back to the .32. Do you want one of those little Silver Tips between your moustache and eyebrows? Thought not. Shuts down the computer. Guaranteed. Now taking it to the ultimate, I don’t want to have to kill anyone; I am certainly willing to do so without a second thought if they need killing and I’m no crybaby whining about how it affects me afterward, but to avoid smoking a perp I carry a Kimber pepper blaster at all time–may save some jerk’s life.
Ammo is also an important fact. Most people just judge the caliber size but the most important fact is ballistics That makes the difference in any caliber. A 380 with the right choice of bullet will make up the difference. After all, you’re not throwing the weapon your shooting it.
I think that the only thing that really matters once you decide to carry something is that you be able to shoot it accurately without undue effort. The .380 is clearly not the most powerful round available. However, if it is the most powerful round that a person can shoot accurately shot after shot then that’s the round to shoot. If my wife were to try and use my .40S&W she might as well thrown the gun at someone as try to shoot them with it. If she’s shooting a .380 then they have something serious to contend with.
Very anxious to try out the new Glock.
As a retired LE officer whose active duty was the 70’s through the 90’s, I fought tooth and nail to be allowed to carry a 1911 in .45ACP. When asked why I carried a .45 my answer was always, “Because they don’t make a .50”.. (which at the time was true).. I would have never believed back then that I’d ever think of carrying a 9mm let alone a .380 “mouse gun”…. But as I aged and arthritis has claimed my hands, wrists and elbows, my beloved .45’s are just not as much fun to shoot anymore, and even the .40S&W with its snappy little bite is punishing to shoot. I still shoot the bigger guns enough to stay proficient, but when I go to the range to shoot for fun, I find myself grabbing the 9’s and .380’s. With the advances made in bullets for both over the last 20 years I really don’t feel undergunned with the 9mm, and the .380 is my “New York reload”. I love the 1911 platform and come close with my Sig Sauer P938 in 9mm as a carry gun and my back up is the nearly matching Sig Sauer P238 in .380. The 9mm gets fed Federal 124 grain Hydra-Shocks and the .380 is loaded with 90 grain Speer Gold Dots. After doing some down-home performance tests on such fun things as water jugs, watermelons, wet newspaper and phone books, I can tell you that I wouldn’t want to be on the business end of either of these little pocket guns in the hands of a proficient shooter. My .45’s will always be in my heart and some day will be handed down to my grandkids, but for now I’ll use what doesn’t hurt when I pull the trigger.
Bullet placement and tactics are much more important than caliber.
There seems to be a niche for any handgun type or caliber anymore. But if its right for you, then it is right for you. It really doesn’t matter what anyone else says or thinks. My wife carries a 9mm but loves shooting my M&P 40. If it works for you, stick with it. By the way, Mas, nice Ralph Nader/Corvair reference – unfortunately, your younger readers probably won’t get it.
Haven’t shot the G42 but have handled it. Its basically the same size as my favorite CCW auto, the Kahr CW9 in 9mm. So I have no reason to want it. However I agree that it will sell well because: its a Glock, its cute and likely quite reliable.
As far guns and calibers go, I advise buyers to shoot what they are comfortable with. Everyone’s hands and physical condition and health are different. A gun buyer will never get proficient if the grip doesn’t feel good, the slide is too hard to rack, the hammer bite hurts or the recoil hurts the joints in their wrists.
I still have several .380’s but prefer 9mm. Occasionally I’ll carry a .380 and I don’t fret about being under-armed as long as its loaded with Corbon DPX (which all my defense handguns are). I don’t feel under-armed with a six shot revolver either because I’ve got the confidence in my ability with one.
At present I don’t carry a .380, but I did in the past and one day it got me out of a really bad off-duty situation without firing a shot. I tested a “micro” .380 awhile back and as part of the test took it and what was touted as some very effective .380 ammo on a hunt for wild boar. It seemed a fair test to pit what has been described as a “mouse gun” against something that could potentially “bite back.” At a distance of about 25 yards my marksmanship, in what was a rainy, muddy and cold environment, was up to snuff as was the .380 round I was using. A 290 pound Russian wild boar was brought down (not instantly I might add) with 3 shots, any of which would have proved fatal. The point is that even an “iffy” cartridge that has a effective load combined with proper shot placement, will do the job. If a small light .380 is what you will carry and you will carry it all the time, then at least you will be following Rule #1 in a gunfight…have a gun!
I use to carry a model 1908 Colt hammerless in .380, but after the value went up, I started using my Charter Arms Undercover five shot .38 Special. Since I’m confined to a wheelchair, the revolver fits perfect in my chair bag, and is real easy to access. It has saved my ass once already after being checked out of Kaiser Hospital in Hollywood at 11 pm about a month ago. I was rolling to my car in the parking lot, when a couple of bro’s tried to jack me for my wallet, they got the working end of the pistol instead. Never saw anybody run so fast. I’m loaded with WW jacketed HP +p rounds. That should get their attention. Also have a HK Speed loader just in case.
Good discussion on the good and bad of caliber used for self protection – but we did get away from the Glock review. Glock makes excellent firearms and I am really fond of my 23 in .40 S&W. However, a more concealable size will insure that I carry when my wardrobe dictates. I for one, have no problems with the size of the tool since I am the weapon. You must train and have the mindset to take the battle to the bad guy when he intends to destroy you. Most BG’s don’t practice with their firearms, you should. “Any gun will do if you will”…. ( a quote from my training )
I’d carry a .22 handgun for defense. As long as it was a Five Seven.
I see one advantage to carrying some of the older quality .380 guns that did not have modern junk unreliable MIM cast parts in them and that was the French/German made Walther PP, PPK, PPK/s guns (rule out the garbage copy Smith is pandering). With this pistol you can actually and safely put it in your coat pocket unlike many of the unsafe modern guns like the new Glock and new unsafe Remington M51 both of which I would never carry loaded except in a hard shell holster.
With the original Walther its small enough to not only put in the pocket safely but you can walk into a building with your hand in your coat pocket and on your gun so if you are attacked getting out of the car or leaving the building to get to your car all you have to do is simply remove your hand from your coat and the gun is already in your hand. You do not have to lift up your coat and try and yank free your gun out of a holster.
As far as penetration I sometimes think that if you can pretest your ammo into a series of Milk jugs stuffed with newspaper and filled with water and wrapped in denim you will see if your particular ammo is capable of enough penetration and expansion to be lethal. Lets face facts the heart stops if hit by a .22 or a 20 mm cannon but dead is dead not deader and the felon will not know the difference between being killed with a .380 or 30mm anti-tank gun.
I have a Bersa .380. I have carpal tunnel and accompanying hand strength issues. I can rack the slide on my Bersa and that works for me, although I’m going to try out someone’s S&W 9mm Shield to see how I can handle that. The Bersa conceals well IWB (I’m waiting on my carry permit). I’ve had a few men sneer at my .380, but I enjoy showing them a picture of one a target I’ve shot on my phone. They stop sneering.
I totally disagree. I carry the S&W Bodyguard whick is .380 and it’s probably the best shooting gun I’ve ever had. The Hornady Critical Defence round that is pictured is the key. It has plenty of knock down power. And face it, bigger is not always better. This one is easy to hide.
We focus on the gun, not the caliber.
Wife has been through a number of guns. Wants to go back to her 9mm Shield. Maybe. Eventually. But is currently carrying, religiously, her LCP.
What a wonderful gun! Both of us love it. She’s not hunting bears at 100 yards with it. But at 7 to 10 yards, she’s filling the chest cavity of a silhouette with it. Good enough!
Since she almost never carried the Shield as she’s doing with the LCP (even though she thought the Shield was very “pretty” — and I agree there, too) — the “just-as-pretty-if-not-prettier” LCP is what I want her protecting herself and grandkids with. Or having my back with. *LOVE* that she’s carrying it. She is a serious CCW proponent, and she has a gun she uses well, enjoys, and is proficient with.
As for stopping power? Well, try this: I like to think of it as a magazine full of really big buckshot — except she gets to choose where each shot hits the buck.
Me, I switched from .357 to 40s. I have three, love them all, and me personally? – They are pleasant to shoot. I really like that round. It feels good to me. I *want* to feel the power they have. I don’t see why others don’t. None of them, I don’t think, make me flinch. All three models, I think, are famous for their low felt recoil (Ruger SR40c, S&W 40c, and Ruger P94 in 40). At 7 to 10 yards, most of them group right on a flattened reg. size McDonald’s french fry box. (I stop at the range at lunch, and… they make nice sized targets). Nice little groups. And for fun, only the P94 gives me issues at distance. Never liked the sights on that one and the triggers are just so sweet on the other two.
But that’s *me*. She doesn’t like it, flinches shooting it — at least right now.
She’s only been carrying a year now. I believe she’ll gravitate back to her 9mm. But for right now, it’s .380 because she’s in love with the gun that shoots it.
Repeat: we’re into the gun, not the caliber. If the gun fits, caliber is so much less relevant.
Given that many (most??) self-defense situations are resolved without firing a shot (bad guy with a knife sees a muzzle and runs away), any caliber will often be adequate. [Despite this thought, my EDC is a 9mm.] Which leads me to this idea: Even a realistic-looking toy gun may be an adequate deterrent, and is probably better than nothing.
Why carry a toy gun? If I were visiting a state which didn’t recognize my Washington State CWP, I might carry a toy gun in hopes of bluffing my way out of a mugging. However, would that be illegal? I know that pointing a fake gun at someone is still assault, but what about concealed carry of a real-looking toy?
Steve, I’d recommend strongly AGAINST the idea. Bad guys aren’t scared of guns — they’re an armed subculture themselves. They’re scared of resolute people wielding guns and obviously prepared to use them.
Unless you’re the world’s best actor, that’s going to be hard to carry off with a gun YOU know is harmless.
There’s an old saying in police work that I first heard from a great law enforcement trainer, Larry Hahn: “Don’t let your mouth write a check that your body can’t cash.”
Toy guns are most likely to scare the unarmed and helpless. They are LEAST likely to scare the armed and dangerous. Again, I strongly recommend against the idea.
I have a M&P shield in 40 cal. I thought my wife would be able to carry: I love the gun as a backup. My concern was that it is a bit too much for her to handle, especially to actually want to practice with. I considered the same in a 9mill.
We came across the G42 in a shop right after I had read a review on it in Guns & Ammo. She loved the feel of it compared to all of the others she compared it to. (Must admit that I love it too, and it is really fun to shoot.)
I would have preferred a larger cal. for her, but wanted something that she will actually carry and be proficient with, which requires practice. Someday maybe she’ll step up to a 9 (maybe Glock would come out with it), but I am glad we got a gun that fits her.
She loves it! And she is accurate with it. Her first clip at seven yards had a small grouping, with two sets of holes touching. (I don’t know the 25 yard stats on my shield, but wonder if it could compare with the G42). Also, the G42 is a bit smaller (easier to conceal) than my shield. It is somewhere between my shield and the Ruger.
The curve of the top of the handle gives a much better grip to hold onto than other small weapons. Personally, I prefer my 40, but for those who need a little less kick so they will practice and become proficient , this is a great gun!
My first CCW has been a S&W BodyGuard .38sp +P revolver w/laser. I hate the thing. It is so lightweight that the recoil even smacks for my gun whose an experienced gun user for the past 30 years. I “recoil” with the thought of practicing with it which means it will not be very helpful to me should I needed it.
I’m looking into semi-autos as alternate option and will likely sell my BodyGuard. In my extensive research I’ve found that if you feed the Glock42 Precision One ammo with Hornady STP bullets it out-performs the 9mm Kahr PM9 yielding 13.15″ of penetration compared to 12″. It chokes up with certain ammo (too hot, too cold) as well. It’s a picky eater. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/daniel-zimmerman/shootingthebull410-glock-42-vs-kahr-pm9-yes-pm9/
There’s an awesome video on YouTube put out by Legally Armed America showing three women testing out four of the newer model 380s. The Glock 42 shined in their review. The newer Colt Mustang was a very close second but I am not comfortable carrying a gun cocked-and-locked which is why I’m also steering away from a SIG 238.
For me, as a woman, my next caliber after I feel proficient with the .380 will be a 38 Super. Out-performs the 9mm with tremendous accuracy.
In 30 years as a firefighter/medic in large city, I’ve seen lots and lots of gun shot victims. People are incapacitated and people are killed by all kinds of caliber weapons…most by smaller caliber. I’ve yet to hear of an attacker continuing his attack after being shot. The vast majority (in my experience) leave the scene as rapidly as they can…if they don’t drop right there.
Certainly, one should carry the largest caliber/highest capacity that is feasible for them but the large caliber is not the end all panacea for an encounter.
.380s and smaller have killed and stopped people for several decades. You carry what you have and what you can handle.
brassfetcher has some very interesting YouTube videos showing ballistics testing for all popular cartridges. A gentleman above stated that a .380 will yield the same results of any caliber if the bullet hits the same area. I respectfully disagree. Kinetic energy, hydrostatic shock, “knock-down power”…. Whatever you call it, velocity and bullet weight matters for purposes of stopping a threat. The best .380 round is light years behind the 9mm. I’m a P238 owner by the way…