So, the wife and I were having dinner with another couple tonight, and our pleasant young waitress told us that something called “sal-mon” was good. I took her at her word, and feasted on my first salmon BLT.
But…”Sal-mon?” With a distinct “L”?
Ain’t the first time I’ve heard that. Where I grew up, it was always pronounced “sammon,” with the “L” silent, and I still say it that way. At the restaurant or market, they always know what I’m talking about and so far, I haven’t been given the wrong fish yet after asking for “sammon.”
We see mispronunciations in the gun world all the time. The M-1 Garand rifle was always pronounced “Guh-RAND” when I was growing up, but those who knew the M-1’s inventor say he pronounced his own name “GA-rand.” It’s generally accepted, on the other hand, that the popular German brand Heckler & Koch is properly said “Coke” for the latter name, not “Kotch.”The Italian Carcano military rifle is usually pronounce “Car-CAN-oh” in this country, but some experts insist that it should be “CAR-can-oh.”
Many of us own lever action carbines. Is it “LEE-ver” or “LEH-ver?” “Car-BEEN” or “car-BYNE?” Or maybe “CAR-been” or “CAR-byne?”
And I won’t even get into the various pronunciations of Latin words and phrases in various American environments.
I’m curious: tell me how you pronounce the words mentioned above, and feel free to share other conflicting pronunciations.
In my house, the word the Evil Princess of Podcasts, Pixels, and Polymer Pistols argues with me about the most is “niche.” Perhaps it’s because I grew up in New Hampshire which has a large Franco-American population, but I have always pronounced it “neesh.” However, my lovely bride, who was born in Chicago until I kidnapped rescued her, insist that it is properly spoken as “nitch.”
With us, it sounds like this:
Me: “Neesh.”
Her: “Nitch.”
Me: “Neesh.”
Her: “Nitch!”
Me: Beesh…(Uttered softly, so she won’t hear me, and hurt me…)
Sammon is a nitch market.
Since I am allergic to all fish (Note: not seafood in general, just fish), I rarely need to speak any of their names. However, on the rare occasion where I do need to speak it, it is “sammon” with an East Tennessee accent. In fact, where you indicate a preference, Mas, I agree with you.
As for the cases where you did not indicate your method, i would speak as follows:
Car-CAN-oh
LEH-ver
CAR-beem
Unfortunately, with femnazis and the “Me-Too” meme plaguing the land worse than Covid-19, being a natural MAN in today’s World is rapidly becoming a “neech” subset of American society. 🙂
SaLmon is a common pronunciation in the deep South.
One of my favorite irritants is the mispronunciation of forte, meaning one’s strong point. It ain’t “for-tay.” It’s fort. Sounds like an army post. Fort. I know the dictionaries have now acquiesced to “for–tay, but they’re just going along with the ignorant masses.
English is such a mash-up. “Forte” is, of course, from the Romance languages. In French, you’re correct, it’s pronounced “fort”. But in Italian, it’s pronounced “for-tay”. I prefer the French, but accept the Italian pronunciation.
Depends on context. Forte meaning strength in a particular endeavor or skill is pronounced “fort”
However, forte is pronounced “fortay” when the musical term is in play, as forte piano, and it, confusingly enough, also means strong, or loud.
Kurt
since both forms are of froggish origin, the particular pronunciation depends on the gender of the word, derived fro its usage. Correctly written, when pronounced “forTAY, it should be written fortée, as in the musical usage., but the accented forst “e” is dropped. If it is just strong, or the miiltary garrison, type of “forte” or “fort”, the accented “e” is not there, as the gender is mascuin. Again, often the silent letter is dropped.. as in “forte” for the garrison, drop the final “e” when anglicised, and it does not cound.
English tkes nearly every other language and hashes it up. Having studied latin literature in nigh school and learning the proper pronunciatioin rules, I got int college and was exposed to medical “latin” wiht is anything but “latin”/ It is the spelling and word meaning butchered thanks to the “scientists” at Oxford. And I’ve always wonered… since the word means ox ford, that is, the place wher ethe oxen were able to cross the river at the “ford”, who is it not pronoucnced “os f(long o as in oh) rd, but rather the slurred letter “e” as in ox ferd.
Nearly every latin derived word in medical or scientific disciplines has been hopelessly and obnoxiously butchered.
I’ve lived iin the Pacific NorthWET for several decades now, and have NEVER ONCE heard that migratory ocean dweling fish that scomes to spawn in freshwater called anything BUT “cammon”. And hereabouts we have lots of it, and can fix it up in mamy different ways. I’ve never yet met a piece of salmon I did not like, even the stuff in the tallish soupcan sized tapered tns.
Now we have something else in great abundance, another of my all tiem favourite things toeat, a sye of shellfish we call OYsters. But my friend Loui,s from Maine, referst o them as “ICEstahs. “. And he could eat prodigous quantities of them.
Another strange thing I have observed, i re pronunciatiois: we have tongues (both in our mouths, and in most of our shoes), pronounced tung. We take dead people to the morgue, prnon=unced morg. We find scertain things present us wiht a keen sense of intrigue, pronounced intrEEG. There is a coaltal barrier island off the counst of Georgia, calledHincoteague, pronoinced chin co teeg. When someone makes a state emt that is not very definitiv,e we refer to it as vague, pronounced VAAG.
But when someone wants to describe how one thing follows well upon another, they will use a french-derived word with non accent upon the final leter, and prnnounce it SEGway, rather than the correct seg. Ggo fugure THAT one uot.
Agreed, drives me crazy too.
>those who knew the M-1’s inventor say he pronounced his own name “GA-rand.”
Yes. I’ve heard the same and, to further clarify, I’ve also heard the brilliant inventor’s name rhymes with “errand” (perhaps denoted phonetically something like “GEHR-rund”).
In Japan, I ordered salmon as “sake” but I was never sure whether the server was going to bring me fish or rice wine!
In Europe it’s always pronounced Sal-mon if as a tourist from the USA you ask for the Sammon they looked at you like your an idiot.
Just love the educational aspect of this blog. Coming and growing up in Brooklyn, NY the play on works and pronunciation.
Gazoline, winda’s (windows) earl ( oil) berla ( boiler). All depends where you grew up.
Thanks for sharing the educational aspect of things. Always a pleasure Mas.
Living in the land where sammon is so fresh it practically flips itself on the grill, I can confidently say the L is as useful as the gh in laff.
“Sigh”… You just had to bring this up didn’t you Mas? Not enough Covid-19 related stress huh? Well I hope you’re happy because my Tennessee Hillbilly wife of 47 years read your missive and said: “See, even Mas writes that people from the South pronounce Salmon as SALMON nor SAMMON like you Yankees do!” So you happy now that you brought new chaos to already “interesting” households as we all approach likely society chaos OOA November 3rd 2020?… Where I may have need of one of my Ga-rands? … Be safe Mas as Gail could get even crankier if you push her on this ‘niche’ topic and she says the dreaded female word “WHATEVER!” … You’ve been warned… consider this a PSA for the aging Camelback Kid!…:-)
Raised in LA (Lower Alabama) we said sammon. For-tay, for Jeff above.
Lee-ver, Car bean, Gaa Rand, and nitch.
Those of us highly sufphistakated in LA laughed at folks who, when calling for fast medical help, asked for the
“am buu lance” to hurry and use their “si reen.”
What about Hoppe’s No 9 Nitro Solvent?
Salmon. And there are plenty of them 8n the Great Lakes these days.
GuhRAND
Coke
Carbeen
CarCANo
Lev r
CarBEEN
Mesh
Thats the word from someone with parents from western New York and Massachusetts who has lived in Michigan for 69 years.
Neesh, not Mesh!
Another pro-nounce-iation contro-VERSE-ey is ‘Makarov’ (9×18: the soviet-era gun maker, firearm and ammo), pronounced MAC-ah-roff by most Americans. As I was informed, while in the Nepal-India-area of the world working with an NGO, that Russian last names emphasize the 2nd syllable, as in mah-CARE-OFF. But I often put the em-FAS-us on the wrong sill-LIBLE. мир через силу!
Forte = fort
Salmon = sammun
Niche = neesh
Nitch = rhymes with glitch
Poke (the Asian salad) = POH-kay
Sake = SAHkay
Often = OFFun
Then again, I was raised in the Chicago ‘burbs, by Southerners, in the 60s & 70s, so… Here’s the salt shaker!
It’s all a jumbled mess that I believe most have gotten use to and few take personally. I suppose the variance in pronunciations could be used as a slur but typically more a matter of a regional norm.
Thanks for the linguistics lesson Mass. …I ment Mas. ?
My wife’s family always says SUR-up, instead of SEE-rup the way I grew up. She gets really uptight about it and I won’t budge, so it will probably cause trauma to our kids.
My favorite soon to be VP is the gorgeous, ultra conservative Kar-ma-la, and the best Supreme Court Justice is the pro-gun Latina babe So-to-mayor, not Soda-my-orr as many liberals like to pronounce it.
Don’t forget the rifle company Sako which the Finns pronounce Socko.
Sharps CAR bean.
LEH ver action.
Nitch, altho my beloved big sister, a language major, improperly says neesh.
I like Planked Sammon as well as the next feller, but those yellow Baby On Board signs are absolutely depraved.
On a tangentially related issue: silencer vs. suppressor. Hiram Maxim invented the silencer. His patent papers call it a silencer. Who am I to to tell Hiram Maxim I know better than he?
A wonderful read today on my birthday – thank you Mas.
I won’t comment on the many ways people pronounce many of the words in your essay, except to say, having lived in Germany for six years and having a German-born wife (who coincidentally is an, and is also known as my Evil Princess), I wouldn’t dare pronounce Heckler und Koch in any, but the proper Hochdeutsche (High German) pronunciation, lest otherwise I would be made to suffer.
“Heckler und Koch” with the vowel sound “Koch” pronounced like “coke” but the final consonant sound being made as if one is clearing their throat, but not as guttural sounding as when a Swiss person makes it – more of a cross between that guttural throat-clearing sound and the sh sound.
The same applies to the Walther: “Valt-hare”
Have a great day and an even better weekend!
Mas, Properly discerning disputed pronounciations of verbiage with a lovely lass who you are in love with AND knows the manual of arms of more firearms and how to tactically deploy them legally, morally, with winning speed forthwith than most cops, AND argues this with a devastating smile and hand on your shoulder, do you or any human have a debating chance on how to appropriately say Seiko or Sako?
Sammon is what I’ve always heard. As to niche, I’d go with your wife’s pronunciation – if only to stay on her good side… FWIW my pocket dictionary agrees with her.
The aims of conversation are mutual understanding and – when possible – agreement. Otherwise does it really make a difference?
Sammon, Garrend?, LEHver, CARbine, fortay (forte pronounced “fort” is part of a sword).
My favorite is Norfolk i.e. Norfolk & Southern Railroad. It’s “norfuk” same as the U.S. cities and
the county in G.B.
I’ve used both pronunciations. However, I googled it and their pronunciation was NITCH; rhymes with ITCH. Leaves me to scratch my head and wonder. I still prefer NEESH; rhymes with SHEESH. As in: Sheesh this is ridiculous. Just find a little niche somewhere and be be happy.
I was listening to college basketball scores on the San Diego radio station. One of the teams I hadn’t heard of before – ‘Veehanova’.
Took a while to realize that was where I got my BA.
Being from the East coast I pronounce all of those words just like you.
Car-Byne, not Car-Bean
Gare-und not Garr-rand
Sam-un not Sal-mun
So-duh not So-dee or Pop
Mahs-tuh-cho-lee not musk-uh-cho-lee
Lie-ten-ning cut not Lite-ning cut
Val-ter not Wall-thur (although the folks at the American plant say we are speaking English, therefore Wall-thur)
In that case, Ann-Jell-a Murr-kul, not An-Gell-uh Mack-ell 🙂
Heck-lerr and Coke (again, that from the American plant), but really Heck-Kerr und Cock (like the male rooster)
Jeff Cooh-per not Jeff Cuup-er
Typed Heck-lerr, not Heck-Kerr, but autocorrect had had enough. LOL
The mammal known as a Bidon is commonly pronounced “By Done” or “Bydn.” Recent research indicates that the correct pronunciation is “Skum Bagg” or “Creepy old perve.”
My biggest pet peeve is nuclear: NUKE-LE-ARE versus the grating and incorrect NUKE-YOU-LAR.
Same goes for realtor: RE-AL-TOR versus RE-LA-TOR.
Fingernails on a blackboard… (yup, I’m old enough to remember them BEFORE they turned green).
I’ll have the saLmon, fried tatters, coE-slaw and a sweet tea. Make it a biggon.
In East TN it’s Sammon for the fish and Salmonila for the bacteria you can get for
eating bad fish.
Dano
I hesitate to condemn some folks for pronouncing (or mispronouncing) words phonetically, especially younger people. It turns out many of these people are intelligent, life long learners, largely self-taught by a voracious reading habit. They have to sound out the new words whenever encountered. On the other hand, some of them just hang out with the wrong, knuckle dragging, beer swilling, ignorant, lowbrow
crowd. The kind with LEE-oh-pold scopes.
Born in the South (if Southern California counts) and living now in the deep South where we call it SAMMAN. Sometimes we eat in on bread, which would be called a SAMMAN SAMMICH.
Salmon BLT are a favorite of mine. The article brought a smile to my face.
To my understanding, here in the South, we take the L from De-kab and put it in the Sal-mon. Up north they put that L back in De-kalb, which means they have none for the sammon.
Hi Mass, been a fan for many…many years. over here in Western Canadah, we pronounce it as leave R action or car bine, so that’s my neach. I don’t think it matters as we all seem to understand each other. The irony is, if we go back about two hundred years none of us current folk would understand the strange words and pronunciation’s used then anyway. It was probably Car bin, and Henry, and no nish at all. I read somewhere that if we could go back to shakespeare times, English would be an alien language to us all.
Gerry, see my post too. I grew up in Victoria, where are you at? Happy Thanksgiving as well, we celebrate both the US and Canada versions here in Idaho!
Hi Mass, been a fan for many…many years. over here in Western Canadah, we pronounce it as leave R action or car bine, so that’s my neach. Its Heckler and kok here as well. I don’t think it matters as we all seem to understand each other. The irony is, if we go back about two hundred years none of us current folk would understand the strange words and pronunciation’s used then anyway. It was probably Car bin, and Henry, and no nish at all. I read somewhere that if we could go back to shakespeare times, English would be an alien language to us all.
An outstanding bit of word play to end your article–I hope you own a comfortable couch (or is it sofa?). Some of my earliest memories of fishing involved the use of “Sammon” eggs as trout bait, stored in bottles labeled “Salmon” for some odd reason.
More recently, I’ve noticed that “prescription” is often pronounced “perscription,” and “precipitation” as “percipitation”—and this usage seems to transcend geographical regions. I spent a decade living in the Tidewater, VA area where the city of Norfolk was pronounced “Nor-folk” or “Nor-fik” by the uninitiated outsiders, while the natives correctly pronounced it “Naw-fk,” allowing it to escape the mouth at a crawling pace, just as God intended.
Not long after my arrival in the Tidewater area, I was assigned to a job in “Manneo (Man-knee-oh),” North Carolina, near the Atlantic coast. Asked if I knew its location, I confidently told my boss that I did not, but would simply look it up on a map (pre home computer days). My search proved fruitless. Frustrated and a little embarrassed, I called my boss, suggesting that the town may be so tiny as to not warrant inclusion on a map (or at least the map I was using), for there was no “Manneo” to be found, adding that I had seen a “Man-tay-oh” (Manteo) in the general area previously described, but no Manneo. Bemused, he confirmed that they were one and the same place–Manteo is “Manneo,”—everybody knows that. He was correct, for unlike Norfolk, I never heard a soul utter any alternative pronunciation of that lovely little town.
I was told told that the “d” is silent in Garand (French you know) and is pronounced “Garan”. No matter how it’s pronounced, it’s my favorite. Thank you DCM for selling me one for $168.00.
Sal-mon, servers as patties in East Texas.
Does the Princess also say “Frunch Room” ie Front Room? Living Room to everyone else
As in I’m going to the Frunch Room, wanna go with?
No, I don’t say that 🙂
Heckler & Koch — I’m not going to be pedantic about demanding that the “&” be pronounces as “unt.”
However, the “Koch” really ought to rhyme with the Scottish word “Loch” (for lake). It’s not “kok” nor “coke” (as in the soft drink name) nor “kotsh.” The German “ch” sound requires vibrating your uvula against your tongue. In this video, it’s the harder-sounding version, as in “Ach!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKHeXOsW06g
Ohhhhhh, uncle Mas. Ya gotta love that sammon, as most any West coaster would pronounce it; my mentor and I used to haul many aboard from the chilly Strait of Juan de Fuca back the day. Another thing that I get a chuckle out of is regional differences to describe a soft drink eg, some call it a Coke, some a soda, still others just say pop. Or, try asking many what a serviette is…
Oh Mas….you are a brave, brave man….lol!
Having worked very bad neighborhoods as a street cop, I was fluent in Ebonics, so the way names and words are pronounced seems minor compared to how they and English grammar are butchered by some members of our population. Gots dat, Bros?
Ok smart guys how do you pronounce foyer?
Turns out both pronunciations of niche are acceptable:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/niche
Now, I live in a place that pronounces Houston as HOUSE-ten and Lafayette as La-FAY-ette, go figure.
Then there are those people who insist on pronouncing the “t” in often. Especially those people reading the news on TV. We don’t pronounce the “t” in listen or soften, do we? What’s up with that?
Surely a Sammon by any other name would taste as phishy.
Lifelong Kansan
Sammon
Lev er
Car bean
carCANo
Neesh
Also woof (wolf) crick (creek)
The German name ‚Koch’ is properly pronounced ‚Koh’, like in ‚coherent’. I mean, the Kraut way. Here in Poland it’s good manners to pronounce names as they sound in original language. Although very few of us say MakaROV, as we accent the second syllab from the end automatically.
My question is, do you pronounce your name like Mass or Mahs?
Mike, I pronounce it “Mass.” Rhymes with “brass.” (Rhymes with something else too, but I try not to think about that.)
You mean “Sass”?
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