CCW

Just curious, Mr. Ayoob:

What is your opinion of Utah’s lack of any live-fire training in their CCW permit class?

Not holding my breath over Wi CCW. One anti dem and two rebubs running only one of which says he’s pro CCW ( introduced one of the last CCW bills). Hoping he makes it thru the primary. The dem, Barret, is Milwaukee mayor and surrounds himself with pd body guards armed with full auto weapons a la Daily. As if either were worth the trouble of shooting. Must be a lot of EGO goin’ on.

I bought the very book shown on the article and it was a great help. Since then I have taken several courses from tailored defense in Clarksville TN that are NRA certified I found on my NRA webpage, and so far I have not found a book by Massad Ayoob that I could not recommend or find useful. I also studied the You Tube video of stressfire speed loading and found it very useful that Mr. Ayoob demonstrated. Links to such things in future articles might be useful. Based on as many articles written per year that I can find, it may be hard to find time to link all these things, but it is as useful to me as having fun watching hickok45 You Tube videos where he is hunting zombies and pumpkins and quoting Robert Frost. All good warriors with good aim tend to have the heart of a poet.

Utah permit is also available for non residents which I did not know about until I read an article yesterday.
I also have concerns about the lack of live fire in the permiting procress

As a retired officer who spent 25 yrs. on the streets, I want to begin by saying I love your articles and respect your opinions on topics. Mayor Daley from Chicago has absolutely no clue about carrying a gun for self defense, he comes from a crappy dirty filthy city where criminals are armed on every corner comparable to NYC and Washington DC. These places are criminals only carry states and citizens are at risk living there. I for one know that cops can’t be everywhere and a law abiding citizen has the right to protect themselves from the low life’s of society who prey on liberal states with strict gun control. Mayor Daley and Mayor Bloomberg have no clues about guns and have armed body guards which the rest of us are not afforded that opportunity. We as a civilized society do have the right to protect ourselves and family members when bad things come are way.

MA, right near NH, recognizes no other LTC and its LTC is recognized by no other state. And that’s after having to cringe and grovel to your local police chief to get an LTC here.

I’m a registered Democrat. Living in the big blue state of NY leaves me less than thrilled with the Dems, especially the liberals who fear gun owners. Between gun control issues and the way my home state has been screwed up by the tax & spenders, I’m leaning toward retiring to a state that’s “less blue”. Florida looks better all the time.

In time both Illinois and Wisconsin will have CCW. The momentum is increasing in Illinois. The Illinois Sheriffs Association, the Illinois Farm Bureau and the City of Peoria are all pushing it! I live in far NE Missouri and can’t carry legally in Illinois or Iowa. We won in Iowa this year and come 1 January, 2011 I’ll be legal in Iowa!

Mas, I met you at the November, 2005 PPA hearing in Madison. Thanks for being there! Your testimony was appreciated! Listening to the testimony of the lovely Suzann Gratia Hupp will bring tears to a grown mans eyes!

Paperwork, fingerprints, photographs, fees, and background checks to allow people to carry a side-arm? What kind of nonsense is this?

The right of self-defense is a corollary to the right to life; to deny one is to deny the other. The purpose of government is to insure our rights, not to infringe on them.

The fact is that governments should not be involved in permitting the carriage of weapons, either openly or concealed, by anyone.

Our constitution states that the right of the people to keep (possess) and bear (carry) arms shall not be infringed. Marbury v. Madison (1803) decided that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and that any law that contradicts the Constitution is null and void. “The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it; an unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed … An unconstitutional law is void.” (16 American Jurisprudence 2d, Sec. 178)

In Murdock v. Pennsylvania (1943) the Supreme Court stated that a constitutionally-protected right may not be licensed, nor a fee charged. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is one of those protected natural rights.

In Shuttlesworth v. Birmingham, Alabama (1962) the Supreme Court decided that “If the state does convert a liberty into a privilege, the citizen can engage in the right with impunity.” (That means they can’t punish you, folks!)

To paraphrase an oft-quoted movie line, “Permits? We don’ need no steenking permits!”

I live in a state where only the wealthy and well conncected get permits; all the rest of us Joes are not justified in carrying since we have no substantial reason that the Maryland State Police deem acceptable to grant us permits. How about self defense? No, not good enough. Is it any wonder why crime is so high in this state? We are hoping that the recent McDonald decision will make a difference for us, but it won’t happen any time soon.

As I pumped gas on a recent visit to Niagara falls, sans normal carry sidearm, I couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if I had called the local police to “serve and protect” me while I exposed myself to possible criminal activity in the fine state of NY. After all, any state that is hell-bent on removing my God-given right to self-defense should be pretty happy that I availed myself of the services of their police force for the purpose intended, right?
I just kept my Kershaw at the ready in my other hand and didn’t go for my normal fill-up, opting instead for $40 bucks worth to get me, my family, and my travel trailer out of town. After carrying it for so long, you really do feel naked without it. Felt much better once I got home to PA.

Hawaii. Another Dem. controlled state “knows what is best for the people” and does not allow anyone to ccw.

What is your opinion on having a shot as your first round in a defensive revolver?

Mas, As always I value your opinion, would like to know your thoughts , because I know that you have much more experience than I will ever have, I am currently considering purchasing a revolver for personal protection and carry. My dilemma is should I purchase an expensive Smith&Wesson 8 shot snub nose, or should I purchase A used Ruger speed,security or service six??? I like the way the 8 shot smith feels in my hand, but I currently own a GP100 that also feels great. Mas, you have far more experience and I would greatly value your TWO CENTS(sense).

SFC, I wouldn’t go with a shot cartridge as first up in a defense gun unless snakes at close range were my major concern. If there’s time for only one shot with life on the line, you want something more substantial to emerge from the muzzle.

Mike, of the guns you mention, the space-age frame of the N-size S&W snub will be more comfortable in terns of weight, but its cylinder will be larger and will bulge more in concealed carry than the Security-Six-size Ruger. Either would be a reliable companion. If the gun is for concealed carry, try both on in a holster and you’ll get an idea which will suit you better.

Folks, I think live-fire training requirements for a permit warrants an entry of its own.

best to all,
Mas

I, for one, do not care if a permit has a live fire requirement. The Second Amendment mentions no such requirement. That’s good enough for me.

Mas writes,

“Illinois’ sheriffs seem to be leaning toward concealed carry licensing.”

I was attorney for the NRA legislative affiliate in Florida (Unified Sportsmen of Florida) for a while during the ’80’s and worked with its president, Marion Hammer, to get our CCW law passed. Initially, the Fla Sheriff’s Association opposed us, but I began contacting the Sheriff’s from rural counties and getting them on our side. As a result, they threw the liberal big county sheriffs out of control of that organization and began supporting our agenda. Then Ms. Hammer took over and got the law through.

At my suggestion, we also got a preemption bill through prohibiting local govts from passing Morton Grove-type laws here, something a lot of people haven’t noticed.

I don’t know much about Illinois or Wisconsin, but I have to suspect that a similar strategy would work there.

Burke Chester
Attorney
Ormond Beach, FL

While I agree that live fire might warrant an entire new article, it seems like New Mexico will no longer honor many permits, especially those from its next door neighbor, Utah. NM will require that one carries a weapon that one is “qualified for” so a person who qualified with a 9mm could not carry a .45.

NM will reject every license that has different requirements than theirs. This will include Florida permits and all others that I know of. FL only requires 10 shots or so from a .22 pistol or revolver.

We would do well to remember that while only two states have no statutory provision for private citizens to carry firearms discreetly and lawfully, the requisite permission slips are not necessarily available in those that have not mandated that issuance is mandatory for all applicants who are not disqualified by some objective standard. It is my understanding that NONE are issued in Hawaii and that in some of the discretionary-issue states, such as New York and California, issuance policies vary widely from county to county.

I could not have stated it better than Molon Labe. We really need more states like Arizona to step up. Permits = registry and registry may one day equal confiscation. I’d hate to think Democracy (2 wolves and a sheep voting on the dinner menu) in a state that is pro-CCW today may result in confiscation tomorrow, but you never ever can know for sure.

I don’t think my state’s training and live fire requirements are that stringent, but I did feel like I wasted my time in the class. Chicago’s new training requirements are just an extension of the Jim Crowe laws– another attempt to use time and money as a way of keeping the McDonalds of Chicago from possessing and carrying firearms.

I don’t understand why the Second Amendment is barred from being our CCW “permit” or “license”. It’s what it was intended for.

Burke, good to have you here. Thanks for your good work in Florida!
best,
Mas

What most people are not aware of is: In Illinois all gun owners are required to posess a Firearms Owners I. D. or F.O.I.D. card. We call it a Phooey card.The license is good for 10 years now, it used to be 5 years. It is issued by the Illinois State Police.You can be arrested if you are found with just ammo and no phooey card! That law, I believe was passed in 1968.The license requires a background check and uses the same picture as your drivers license. In fact it looks much like a drivers license. It has gotten so bad that if you were in a store selling firearms and wanted to take a look at a handgun, you have to first produce your phooey card before you can touch it. You also need it to purchase ammo, primers, bullets, powder and I have even been asked to show it when purchasing loose shot for loading. Actually I was going to use it for weight in the Caldwell Lead Sled.
No, I don’t see CCW coming to Illinois anytime soon, unless Cook County is set aside as a separate entity in the CCW law, where it would not apply.

Hi Mas,
It’s been a long time. About 30 years or so since we met up at the Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot. Boy, that shoot was sure a lot of fun. I was just looking through some old pictures of that shoot. I got your phone number and used to bend your ear all the time. You were living in N.H. then. I was the Secretary of our local I.P.S.C. club.
I just purchased the Ed Brown Ayoob Signature 1911. I had to get a second mortgage on the house to purchase it, but it sure is nice. However, the grips were a little too big for my hands and I put a set of Chip McCormick slim grips on it. I got to wondering if that was really your signature engraved on the 1911 and I remembered that I had a signature in your book “In The Gravest Extreme”. My copy is yellowing with age, but I dug it out and sure enough I had a signature, but it was John Farnam’s. For the life of me I can not remember how that could have happened.
I feel lucky that I have had the chance to meet you, and John. Along with Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan, and Elmer Keith if only briefly. I had gotten Elmer’s autograph at a Shot Show or NRA Convention and asked him to autograph a “Guns and Ammo” annual. After he passed away I went to my stack of magazines and could not find them. Turns out my wife gave them all to the local library and I’m sure they just threw them out.
I remember when glow in the dark night sights first came out. I was at a I.P.S.C. match near Quad Cities and one of the shooters had just gotten a set and most of us hung around until dark just to see if they helped and I think we all were impressed, well, now I finally have my own!
Take care and stay away from those duds!

Hey, Randy, good to hear from you! I do miss the Second Chance shoots, even after all these years.

Yup, that’s my signature on the gun.

Still hopeful for all you guys & gals in Illinois,

Mas

Mas,

To add to Steven Wenger’s comment, in NJ don’t expect to see a carry permit unless you need it for work (in which case you’re restricted to carrying when you’re working) or are one of the “important” people. Most people in NJ have a better chance of being struck by lightning than of getting a carry permit.

In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need exams and qualifications for a permit. Heck, we should be able to carry without any restrictions in a perfect world. But in a perfect world we wouldn’t need firearms to begin with, would we? Alas, we’re not in a perfect world.

As a person commited to carrying and studying “the art”, my greatest concern for others is their understanding the rules of engagements: ability, opportunity, jeopardy, and preclusion.

While, I agree some kind of qualification/proficiency test should be given. I see it being somewhat difficult and impractical to implement, unless it was done by private instructors rather than state.

What would be more feasible would be a short written exam on basic handgun safety (the four rules) and when you can use deadly force. Then as a reference, when you’re issued your permit, you get a nice reference booklet on relevant state laws etc (or maybe In the Gravest Extreme).

Let’s face it, most people will at least do some live-fire practice. But how many will stop and say “Gee carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility, I should research the laws governing this privilege.”

The CCW class I took in CO (as required for a permit) covered both CO and UT. While not perfect, UT’s standardized course was at least a step in the right direction. While fairly minimal to most of us, I think it at least gives the student a starting point.

For the CO portion, it was little more than having the state statues read aloud.

Right after my class, I discovered an instructor who liberals and grass-eaters called “a man who teaches people how to kill criminals and get away with it”.

While no one wants to harm another human being (myself included), there are some of us who realize it may be necessary to do so in order to protect our loved ones and ourselves. And if liberals say an instructor is that “bad” he must be that good.

Kind of ironic how anti-gunners help us and promote great instructors…

Live fire training is a good thing. Why should the law assume that people who seek a permit to defend themselves and their loved ones would be too stupid to seek training?

There is something wrong with a mindset which starts with the presumption that people are stupid and incompetent. Is there any evidence that Vermont, where people are recognized to have an automatic right to carry concealed weapons, is a hotbed of untrained people spilling blood in the streets?

Let us be honest. The people who push for more requirements and restrictions are either trying to limit the number of those who can defend themselves legally, or to promote their training courses, or simply to meddle in the lives of other people. Using the force of law in pursuit of these motivations should be discouraged. If you think it’s a good thing to be trained, use moral suasion to make your point. Pointing guns at people – even by proxy – should not be done so casually.

So,
How about we take a page from wetback supporters, and boycott Illinois until they pass CCW and recriprocity?

For openers, I intend to drive to Missouri from Florida by bypassing Illinois. Same mileage, extra hour or so.
So Georgia Tennessee and Kentucky will also feel the pinch from my absence at their gas stations, restaurants and hotels. But Alabama, Arkansas and Missouri will benefit.

We need a “REAL Right-to-Carry” revolution.

By playing on the mandatory government permit field, we are playing on the left’s turf.

The power to license it the power to take away.

We need to end gun permitting/licenses. The government needs to be out of the game.

Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona have no mandatory licenses, Arizona joining in the freedom earlier this year.

“REAL Right-to-Carry” is the way to go. That’s true freedom. That’s true liberty.

Our ancestors would be rolling over in their graves if they knew we had to ask permission from government to carry our own personal protection.

What State has the cheapest and/or easiest CHL fee that is accepted by Texas????

Harry, I totally agree – we should NOT have to ask for permission to exercise a right we ALREADY have.

Permits are for those who think they need permission to do things. Self-defense is a RIGHT. I don’t ask others if I can exercise my rights. So I don’t have a concealed carry “permit.” It’s just another way for them to register you and put your name on a list they can use later.

Permits are for those who don’t understand what rights really are. I could care less whether or not Utah has a “live fire” requirement or how many other governments accept their “permit” as “genuine.”

We don’t license bear’s teeth, cat’s claws, baseball bats, swords, crossbows, or any other defense weapon except firearms. Why is that?

It’s because people are enamored with the idea that “government” is somehow able to keep the lunatics in line despite the evidence that most of the lunatics work for government.

I own firearms, a shovel, quick lime, and not only do I know how to use them, but none of them are “licensed.” Lunatics beware. I don’t dial 911. I have a right to defend myself and I exercise that right freely, without first asking for permission.

Mayor Daley explained to us that “Guns isn’t the answer.” Maybe we need some “inclusive” slogans to express the opposite point of view.
If you live in Bridgeport(Mayor Daley’s neighborhood: “Guns IS the answer!”
If you live elsewhere on the south side: “Guns BE the answer!”
If you live on North Milwaukee Avenue: “Guns IS answer” (Polish has no articles).
U of Illinois-Chicago: ” Guns comprise a significant contribution to the answer.”
U of Chicago: “What’s the answer? What’s the question?”
Greeks: “Whatsa matta you? “Guns isn’t the answer”? You sick inna head?
Italians: “I give ya the answer!”

Don’t forget about Maryland- we are a “May” issue state, which for all practical purposes means maybe if hell freezes over.

In NJ its almost impossible for an ordinary citizen to get a CCW. Its really just as bad as Ill and elsewhere

In my home state of Kentucky we have the Constitutionally protected RIGHT to carry openly , as it should be. An armed society is a polite society.

Thanks to Molon Labe, Winston Smith, Mark, Usagi, and Harry for going right to the heart of the matter. If an adult human needs permission to exercise his fundamental, natural rights, he is not free. He is a slave and inferior to his masters.

And thanks to everyone else for defending freedom.

Rick Freedom_First (at) verizon (dot) net

His “2 states” comment is misleading. Unless a state has a “shall issue” law, getting a carry permit is close to impossible is some states. Here in New Jersey, concealed carry is virtually non existent. You must “prove a need” to both the Chief Of Police and a Judge. I’m a member of 3 shooting clubs, and no one I know has ever succeeded in getting a carry permit. People who carry large amounts of cash and apply for a carry permit are denied the permit and told to “hire a bodyguard”. People who feel threatened are told to “get a restraining order”, etc. etc . etc. The police and judges see no reason to ever issue a carry permit.

One of the first things I did moving from NH to PA back in the 80’s was obtain a PA License to Carry, (God forbid if you call it a “permit” here in PA). Thankfully, PA is a “shall issue” state.

I am also thankful that in all the years, I’ve only been in one circumstance, (last fall) when I even considered that I may need to draw my gun in self defense.

I’ve also been able to help a few others with their desire to be able to “Defend,” “Protect” or “shoot someone who breaks in my house” as she put it. with choosing and training on how to be able do this and the responsibility involved. Mainly, thanks to articles and writers like you as well as taking some NRA training courses.

Mayor Daly also intends to ban gun retailers in Chicago as well a prohibiting gun owners from stepping outside their home with a firearm. How can they even legally bring a gun into their home? Will Chicago cops be watching gun stores and gunsmiths to arrest customers when they enter Chicago city limits? Daly just won’t be recognizing the Second Amendment even in the face of Supreme Court Rulings. He’ll do anything to make gun ownership expensive, risky, impractical, and restrictive to the point of being useless for defense.
Daly needs replaced. Neck tie party?

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunks with baseball bats.

The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

It pleases me to see so many of you that are recognizing your right to self defence (and by extension, the right to possess the means to do so) as fundamental and inalienable. CCW permits, licenses or whatever alias they travel under are an infringement of our rights, amount to nothing more that a registration scheme and will ultimately be used against us. We all need to remember and articulate to our fellow countrymen the fact that the Constitution conveys no rights to us, it merely preserves rights that were inherent to us at birth (myriad more rights than are inumerated in the Bill of Rights). When government attempts (often successfully) to limit, restrict and infringe our right to keep and bear arms, they do so out of a sense of self preservation. Never forget, the Second Amendment wasn’t put in place primarily so we can go hunting, target shooting or even defend ourselves. The Second Amendment is our final check and balance in this Constitutional Republic. An educated, vigilant and ARMED public creates fear in the hearts of politicians who would otherwise have enslaved us to a greater degree than they already have. The fact is that a popular uprising by only 2% of the armed citizens of this nation would be unstoppable and the ruling elite are painfully aware of this. That is why they tirelessly try to restrict and eliminate this most important right and why we must never give up the fight for total freedom to carry in any manner we see fit.

I moved from Alaska (great CCW state) to Colorado (another pretty great CCW state). Your books…Concealed Carry, Combat Handgunnery, In The Gravest Extreme and the one to help teach your kids about guns are indispensable. I’ve learned and applied a lot of the knowledge gained and I always keep the nearby to re-read & learn more.

I’ve missed the last few Backwoods issues…good to catch up with some online.

Take care,

Dave

Permits to purchase, operate and own pencils? No. 2 or charcoal only, no mechanicals.

I’m not so sure expanding the permit idea is so good.

It certainly works against the poor who can ill afford to practice to qualify, or cough up the money for the purchase permit for a gun, or to renew their permits. That might be the idea though.

In countries that experience currency devaluations do the middle class find the cost as burdensome as the poor and will that happen here in the U.S.? Some economist say yes, only time will tell.

I an deeply troubled by the acceptance of the CCW as “allowing” citizens to exercise their rights. How would we feel if the government was easily issuing “FSL”s, Free Speech Licenses. Say they never, ever, had denied one. Every sheriff/law enforcement agency had a must issue policy.
But every citizen had to apply for the license, specify the kind of speech they intended to ‘speak’ and, in certain places, under certain conditions, they could not exercise their license.
The acceptance of the CCW in OUR gun-friendly community is frightening and pitiful. We are, or are becoming, a nation of sheep gladly welcoming our shepherds allowing some of us to sometimes play sheepdog.
We should be fighting for our exercise of our rights. Not fighting to get our government to allow us to.