Instructors who are gentle but firm with the students. Instructors who explain “Here’s why we do what we do here,’ as opposed to “This is the doctrine!!” Instructors who actually get out there in front of their students, God, and everybody and DEMONSTRATE. And, in this case, a course of fire so challenging that over decades, you can about count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who’ve shot a perfect score at qualification time.
Yes, the Evil Princess and I are loving the Rogers Shooting School Advanced Course, and looking forward to the two days we have left.
The class is full with 18 people, three relays of six working the half-dozen identical computer-controlled steel plate bays. While Relay 1 is shooting, Relay 2 is coaching and counting hits and Relay 3 is refilling magazines. Very efficient, and a great bonding experience. Squads on each position change daily so students can get the experience of coaching, and being coached by, different people.
Class is an interesting mix of cops (mostly firearms instructors), current or former dot-mil, and armed citizens including a couple of physicians and a nurse. I watched the younger of a father-son team pass the Advanced qualification today, only 60% of the way into the course. He accepted the accolade with a quiet pride beyond his years, and I expect his dad is dancing on air.
With some of the relatively small targets fully “up” to the shooter for as little as half a second, and 125 of these targets presented over the course of nine fast-paced stages (some requiring not only one-handed shooting with each hand, but one-hand only speed reloading) I am definitely getting my daily adrenaline requirement along with my already-predicted annual humility requirement.
Here’s a short video of one stage shot by Chris Edwards, who has already passed the Advanced course requirements, shooting his 9mm Glock 17 on what the Rogers School calls “a blast” of targets. (On point to another recent blog discussion, it kinda validates the whole “high capacity magazine” concept…)
Or click HERE for video.
Great shooting by Chris. Great target setup. Great practice if one is ever attacked by a murderous horde. 🙂 Actually, I’m jealous. Isn’t a one-hand speed reload mutually exclusive?
Well, the high-capacity magazine concept is certainly proven for shooting a target rich training environment. No doubt, it is both good training and good fun to shoot.
However, it is stretching the point to claim (as is implied) that the high-capacity magazine concept is thus proven in the real world. I tend to be more persuaded by the hard facts and figures amassed in the NYC Shooting Discharge Reports than by the video of a single training drill.
The format of the NYC Discharge Reports changes from time to time. However, a similar format has been used in recent years (2007 to 2014). Taking the reports for these years as a dataset, we find:
The NYPD engaged in 330 incidents of armed conflict during these years. This is a large enough number to be statistically valid. A total of 495 officers discharged their weapons in these conflicts.
The NYPD keeps track of the percentage of officers who fire 5 or fewer times. The percentages (for these years) range from a low of 68% to a high of 90%. The average works out to be 77%. So, the first conclusion that is reached is that, in more than ¾ of the incidents, a six-shot revolver would have provided adequate ammo capacity. One sees how the revolver lasted so long as a viable police sidearm.
During this period, the NYPD was armed with 16 shot (15+1) semi-automatic handguns. A total of 7 officers shot their handguns dry. Note that, a few of these cases seem to be “spray and pray” episodes and it is questionable that the guns actually needed to be shot dry. These officers may have reloaded but they did not continue firing. In other words, the 16 shots fired in their initial volley were all that they shot.
Six (6) other offices actually reloaded and then continued firing. These officers seemed to have been caught up in what I call Type B Offensive firefights. This is why they needed this extra firepower.
In fact, a least five (5) of the incidents (one in 2007, two in 2011 and two in 2012) were clearly Type B firefights. The discharge reports noted these incidents because the high number of shots fired by the officers (more than 100 rounds total fired by several officers in one case) skewed the normal “shots per incident” figures.
For 13 (7+6) officers out of 495 total, the high capacity magazine capacity concept was certainly validated. However, for 383 out of 495 officers, the low capacity (revolver) concept was validated. This was the number of officers who resolved their conflict with 5 or fewer rounds expended.
So, while mowing down steel plates is good fun and good training, the hard facts and figures from the real world statistics of a major city police department tell a different story. What they say supports my posts in the previous blog. They say that the majority of police gunfights fall into what I call the Type A category which is usually resolved within the 5 or 6 round capacity of a typical revolver.
Type B offensive gunfights do occur in law enforcement. Whether they occur at all or (if they do with what frequency?) in relation to civilian concealed carry is an open question. For the police, they are rare and statistically comprise less than 10% (probably less than 5%) of all police gunfights. However, when they do occur, the high-capacity magazine handgun concept is validated although the high-capacity patrol carbine concept is even more validated (IMHO) for this type of fight.
Most excellent training (and looks like FUN)!
Hi Mas! I am impressed that you still participate in training classes as a student! I think it says a lot about your character. Rogers Shooting Schools sounds extremely difficult. I would like to take some sort of extra training in firearms but I think that the worry of not doing well or embarrassing myself holds me back.. maybe one day I will get the courage up though! Thanks for an informative blog!
Karen
All,
I am going to change my screen name from “Old Fezzywig” to “Roger Willco.”
Wow, great course and great video! Now think about how privileged/blessed we are to be able to live in the good old USA. This course could have been taught in any one of the fifty states, but where else? Well, I am sure it could be taught in Switzerland, and you could teach it in Canada as long as the caliber is only .22 long rifle. You could not attend this course in the UK, or most other countries of the world, because they don’t want their citizens to have handguns.
I know there are some countries where you can have all kinds of guns, because you will need them, unless you want to be killed by the bad guys. These are war-torn nations. So here in the USA, at the present time, we can have this handgun course, and still live in peace. Hallelujah!
Wow, that looks cool, I can barely see that fast. Glad you two are having fun.
Mas, what is your gun of choice for this course?
Nice job by Chris. Looks like loads of fun.
Reminds me of our time at Chapman Academy in 03.
Glad to see your in for a tune up. Always nice to tighten up one’s skills.
Ya’ll have a good time.
Mas, I live about 60 miles from Elijay and didn’t even know Rogers Shooting School existed. Go south on 575 until you see Hwy 136 west and that will bring you right to the town I live in. Elijay is about twice the size of La Fayette. Hope you get time to enjoy the Mountains. Going through that much ammo in just a few days your either going to have blisters or callous’.
I believe in the high capacity magazine concept. For years I carried 1911’s in 45 ACP and went through several training classes instructed by Clint Smith and John Farnam (and I would still like to take one of yours). The exercises in those training classes convinced me that more is better because you never know when you will need that one extra round after your 1911 is empty. Yes, fast reloads can be accomplished with practice, but the fastest reload is not having to do one. Therefore, my everyday carry weapon now is a Glock. I have them in 9mm, .40 S&W, and 45 ACP. They all have a greater mag capacity than a 1911 single stack. I am content. 🙂
Marty, I did my first day with my carry gun du jour, a Wilson Beretta Compact 9mm. Changed on second day to Springfield XDM 5.25 for longer sight radius, bright green fiber optic front sight, and bigger magazine well for faster reloads. Both in 9mm.
Mas,
On my bucket list! Enjoy!
TN_MAN, as usual your analyses are great food for thought. One thing about the “Rule of Three–three shots, three yards, three seconds,” is that another “Rule of Three” also obtains: if you try to use a handgun vs. three firearms-bearing assailants, especially in the open, you die! The less unintelligent crooks are going to band together and put you in a Type B, no-win scenario. Let your primary weapon be more than a handgun when possible, and think twice about engaging one assailant, let alone two or more, without cover, concealment, and adequate reinforcements.
Nifty targets, Mas. A better version, though, would be targets that appear to be shooting back at us, complete with flashes and bangs.
I carry a 1911 Gov’t. 10mm 9rds of either 125gr DoubleTap with the Barnes TAC XP at 1600 fps or Underwood Ammo 155ge XTP at 1500 fps and 2 extra 8rd mags. Because of back issues I can no longer carry a billfold so I carry a small backpack. In its on compartment I have a FS S&W M&P 9mm with an extra mag. Finally after being married for 33yes now I finally talked my wife into getting her carry permit. She took my only compact I had away from me a Ruger SR 9c I had tuned. She is recoil sensitive and finally we settled on a 90gr Serria V-Crown bullet at 1200fps. At 10 yards she can keep a mag full in the size of her hand running the gun. My son who is 12 tells me all the time it’s not far that he can’t carry. I tell him thats what the M&P is for i will just hand the backpack to you if needed.
So my plan is hit them hard and if I need more than 25rds of 10mm’s then 33rds of 9mm is alway with me. Sorry for the second post but was in a hurry my last post. Like I said before hope you have time to enjoy the Mtns.
I find myself in agreement with TN’s first three sentences above and appreciate the humor of Randy’s “murderous horde” reference.
” It kinda validates the whole ‘high capacity magazine’ concept…”, was this meant as “tongue in cheek” or am I missing something obvious? Obviously one can never go wrong with more rounds at hand, but did the linked video actually validate the real world necessity of higher capacity? Expound please, if you find the time.
Kevin Davis — Welcome to the blog, brother, good to have you here!
William — One tailors the tool to the task. I don’t feel uncomfortable carrying a six-shot revolver (or two) in certain places, and am still partial to the single-stack .45 I’ve favored since 1960. However, if the predictable need is likely to involve high round count, it makes sense to have high capacity. In a 23-target “Rogers Blast,” it makes sense to need to reload only once. I don’t expect “Walking Dead” to become a documentary instead of a TV fantasy anytime soon, but as an arthritis sufferer, I can tell you that the thousands of rounds this week were more comfortable with 9mm than they would have been with .45 ACP, let alone full power 10mm.
William–When my humor is appreciated I am always pleased. Actually, my nighttime house gun is a Glock 17 w/light and laser on the rail. Daily carry is a Kahr cm9 with a spare mag=15rds. On the other hand I will sometimes, depending on the weather, will use a Miami Classic II shoulder rig with a S&W compact 9 w/ 2 spare mags under the right arm. Total round count is 37.
I am self employed and was in my shop when gang bangers decided to settle their differences in front of my shop. At least 6 bullets hit my building. 1 bullet penetrated a window and missed me by 4 feet. I never got a shot off! The cars involved all got away.
I basically agree with TN_MAN. Even drawing a carry gun is extremely rare. 90% of cops go through 20 years and never even draw their weapons. Jeff Cooper was a Marine in WWII and the Korean War, volunteered for Viet Nam but was rejected for being too old, and was a mercenary in the Rhodesian War. Yet, he never shot a man. I believe in being ready for any disaster, but thankfully they are still rare.
Consider this scenario. Imagine I’m carrying two five-shot, snub-nose revolvers and one speed loader. I would feel well-armed, but I’m carrying 15 rounds of ammo. Modern 9mm carry guns can shoot that much without reloading, so the newer guns do make sense.
Was it Sun Tzu who said warriors should not have favorite weapons? Warriors should be able to use whatever they have, and whatever they find, as weapons. Of course, the number one weapon is the mind.
@ Old Fezzywig:
Actually, Sun Tzu wrote about adapting one’s tactics to the enemy rather than adapting weapons. For example, in this quote:
“Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards… Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain.”
Comments are closed.