In the handgun forums and magazines, a new narrative holds that .45 and 9mm are virtually the same in “stopping power,” so we should all carry the 9mm for its (relatively) lighter recoil and larger cartridge capacity.  While lighter recoil and more ammo are certainly good reasons to go to a 9mm instead of something larger, are smaller bullets really as good as bigger bullets?

The answer, of course, is “it depends on the bullets.”  Historically, it takes superior bullet design and/or higher velocity for the smaller bullet to do as much damage as the larger. The smaller round is much more demanding of careful ammo selection, in my experience.  Any deer hunter will tell you that you have to carefully select .243 loads for quick, humane kills on deer, while there is a broader spectrum of .308 loads that will do the job.  Any soldier with a specialty in small arms will tell you that much more money and research has gone into making effective anti-personnel ammo in 5.56mm NATO than was ever needed for effective 7.62mm NATO.  In the same vein, while I’m usually perfectly comfortable carrying a 9mm for personal protection, I’ve found myself having to be MUCH more picky to find street proven ammo for that chambering than for my old favorite .45.

I’m not alone in that. A fellow writer, Charlie Petty, wrote 25 years ago in American Rifleman magazine  of FBI’s research at the time, “As the testing progressed, another factor became obvious. No 9mm loads came close to the 10 mm and .45. ‘We expected that there would be a gap,’ said (FBI’s Urey) Patrick, ‘but we didn’t expect it to be so large.’ In the first series of tests, the best a 9 mm could do was 67.5%. The .38 Spl. fared just as poorly, and the standard FBI-issue .38 Spl. (158-gr. lead hollow-point +P) also achieved a 67.5% success rate. Among the initial rounds tested, only the 10 -mm, .45 ACP and a single .357 Mag. round were able to score consistently above 90%.”

Time went on. Ammo got better, and the new designs probably benefitted the 9mm proportionally more than the bigger calibers, but all were made better. A famous wound ballistics specialist whose work was pivotal to the FBI’s testing protocols was Dr. Martin Fackler, who died last month. In a 2012 interview Dr. Fackler said, “The size of the hole the bullet makes, the .45 is bigger than a nine-mill. But how much bigger, by diameter, it really doesn’t give you the measure of how much tissue it disrupts.  What does is the area of a circle. Area of a circle, it was pi-r-squared. It’s the radius squared. So, if you take your .45, your point four-five-one and your nine-millimeter as your point three-five-five, take half, take the radius, square that, and what you’ll find is that the volume, or the area, of damaged tissue made by the .45 is about sixty percent more than made by the nine.”

Another recognized authority, Dick Fairburn, recently wrote in Police One.com, “I will always carry the largest drill I can, so my choice for open/duty carry is either a .45 for social work or a full-power 10mm in the boondocks. When I need a small pistol for concealment, a 9mm with high-tech ammo will do.”

Bearing in mind that where the bullet strikes is probably more important than anything else, and there is a wide range of experience and ability to control rapid pistol fire, I’d be curious to hear what all y’all think about this.  Since this tends to be a very contentious topic on the gun related internet, I’ll remind everyone that informed opinion, experience, and facts are welcome here, and ad hominem argument is not.

114 COMMENTS

  1. There is always .40 sw for people like me who can’t make up our minds on what to carry 🙂

  2. Someone one said: “When a good small man fights a good big man, the small man is toast”. Okay, words to that effect.
    As is true with all analogies, it’s not entirely applicable.

    Most of us will not have to prove our theories in the field of combat. Those who have done so, have strong opinions; mostly, whatever they used (eg: 9mm or .45) was perfectly adequate. Their criteria was: they survived.

    So the only way we have to truly judge the difference between small and large caliber is what we have chosen to believe to be true. If you’re more comfortable with an easy-to-shoot 9mm, you’ll be more confident in a self-defense situation; you’ll perhaps even shoot better, and the likelihood of your delivering an incapacitating wound would be “high”, for certain values of “high”.

    If you believe that a big bullet (large caliber, not necessarily but PROBABLY heavier throw weight) is more likely to deliver first-shot incapacitance, chances are YOUR confidence is higher too.

    Very fact, small, light weight bullets might deliver a certain amount of “shock effect” (hydrostatic) and that might increase your chances of survival … but this back and forth stuff can go on forever.

    I favor the big bullet. but i carry a .380 on a daily basis because (1) IT’S SMALL so I will carry it, and (2) the only tme I can’t run away is probably because I cannot; and anything you’re shooting is going to cause massive damage when the muzzle is pressed against the flesh of your aggressor.

    SO, my answer is … does it really matter? You’re going to do what you want to do anyway.

  3. I’m gonna go with Rob Pincus on this topic. Also a conversation with a Clark County Metro officer who told me that equal hits with their Gold Dots, irregardless of caliber, basically produced the same results.

  4. Jeff, not too long ago, some Las Vegas Metro firearms instructors told me the same thing. However, LVMPD issues heavy-for-caliber 180 grain Gold Dots for .40 and 230 grain Gold Dots for .45, but fast medium weight 124 grain +P bullets for 9mm.

  5. All things being equal, I have to think the larger diameter has to have an edge, perhaps only a small one. However my opinion is it comes down to three things.
    1) shot placement.
    2) shot placement.
    3) shot placement.
    If you don’t hit anything important it matters not the caliber.
    A 12GA will take care of business.

  6. I still prefer premium .45 ACP… Why? Because I carried an M1911A1 for 20 of my 22 active years in the US Army and have great confidence in the pistol design and the current crop of improved ammunition you can feed it with, in this case, a pair of Kimber Gold Combat Stainless… YMMV and in truth, like others, you can know that most days I have a S&W J frame with .38+P rounds and a backup Seecamp with .32 Winchester Silvertips. And I do love my Browning Hi-Power in 9mm… But with sufficient warning for home defense, choice would likely be .45 ACP FMJ from an M1928A1 TSMG… for close encounters. When out in the arroyos, it is a .44 Mag S&W Mountain Gun revolver. So far, so good.

  7. Assuming this report is legitimately from the FBI:

    May 6, 2014
    FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

    Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

    * Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

    * Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

    * Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

    * In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

    *Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

    * The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

    *LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

    * Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

    * 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

    * 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

    * The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

    * There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

    * Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

  8. I am grateful that I have not had to test my theory, but I have always been a fan of the .40. EDC G27, 180 Gold Dots. My reasoning is that I can have confidence in the stopping power of quality ammo as well as a bit more capacity. Spare mags are not limited to 9 rounds (G22-15 rounds). Should a spare mag be needed, I am ok with it protruding.

  9. In light of the FBI Justification for Law Enforcement Partners report that LEO’s miss 70 to 80% of their shots in a shooting incident, it seems that the higher capacity of the 9mm platform would be a good thing!?

  10. Any thoughts on .380 ammo? Light vs heavy. Not a huge fan of .380 but sometimes it does satisfy rule #1, have a gun on you.
    Thanks

  12. I like what Dick Fairburn says. But, my duty round is a .357 Sig Gold Dot, and I am more than happy with it. My off-duty is an M&P Shield, with 9BPLE +P+ and I can tell you that this has worked absolute wonders in the field. And on deer. I am absolutely comfortable with that. But, back to Dick. When on the farm, and in the woods, I carry a Dan Wesson PM-7 loaded with 9 180 grain 10mm from Buffalo Bore cranking more than 700 FPE. I feel perfectly adequate in all environments. Shoot what you shoot best.

  13. Good article, thank you. You quote my friend, Marty Fackler. Hey us Martys gotta stick together. Marty’s funeral is tomorrow, the 12th. I had the fun time over the last 3 years to talk wound penatration, caliber effect on human tissue & life. One of Marty’s better research articles was never published due to “GD politics” – the deminished effect of bullet lethality due to the shorter barrel on the M4. Anyway remember Dr Marty Fackler & drink a adult beverage – that’s what he would have told you to do.

  14. What we need is a modern version of the Thompson LaGarde wound tests to determine more precisely what calibers and bullet combinations works best.

    Instead of using human cadavers and innocent animals to find out what loads stops quicker, we need live targets. Fortunately, there are over a hundred volunteers ready for this testing housed at government expense at Gitmo.

  15. I pretty much agree with you Mas.

    If I carry a Glock 9mm it better be loaded with high tech bullets (CorBon for me). If no high tech bullets are available then it is a Glock .45 that I will choose. For years I have carried a Glock .40S&W, but now feel that it is the greater loser to the high tech 9mm bullets. I think usage of the .40S&W will diminish more because of the high tech 9, than the .45.

    The 9 vs. 45 argument parameters are pretty much the same as the .223 vs. the .308. Smaller calibers can work as long as you have a velocity and superior bullet construction advantage. However, I believe a sample population of shooters would usually prefer the .45 over the 9 while the same population would probably prefer the .223 over the .308 (just my opinion). Of course the weight disadvantages at the pistol level or not nearly as great as the weight disadvantages at the rifle level to go with the larger caliber.

  16. A big reason I prefer a .44 or .45 to smaller calibers is that I don’t have to worry overmuch about having the highest tech loads to have an effective defensive handgun. As an example, .45 ACP Ball is well known for its ability to “make bad guys good.” The same can’t be said for similar 9mm loads. While finding the best loads in each cartridge isn’t a problem right now, what happens when the next run on ammo occurs? When all you can find and/or afford is Ball.

    Mas had also noted for years that even the best hollowpoints can get plugged with heavy winter clothing. So you’re essentially back to Ball. A bigger and heavier bullet does a more effective job yet again. Add the flat meplat of a semi-wadcutter bullet and it’s better still.

  17. A firearm is a tool. More specifically, it’s a power tool. Have you ever said to yourself, “Jeez, I really wish I had opted for the smaller less powerful tool?” No? Neither have I. I carry a .45.

  18. Mas, I hesitate to enter the discussion as this topic tends to bring out the un-informed, internet warriors. You and Jeff speak of Gold Dots and you added the tendency for departments to opt for the heavier bullets in .40 and .45 but mid-weight in 9mm. Don’t you think this might be for greater penetration for the .40’s and .45’s and greater expansion in the 9’s? The advent of modern defensive bullets brought reliable expansion for the slower heavyweights. In the not so distant past, expansion with .45 hollow points at 230 gr. velocities was iffy at best, making them essentially a hardball equivalent. I have no comment on the .40 as I have always considered it a solution in search of a problem, no offense to those that love the cartridge, I just have little experience with it. Years back, when my former department opted for the Sig 226 for departmental issue, the Firearms Training personnel selected 147 gr. Black Talon 9mm. as the required carry ammo. The heavier bullet brought velocities down to sub-sonic and expansion suffered. Just before I retired they had gone to a 125 grain +P for the 9 mm.
    I love the .45, carried one for much of my career (until our department became “enlightened”). Now that I’m retired, I carry a sub 10oz. .380. If I ever get into another deadly force encounter, I will wish I had a 20 shot 12 ga. pistol that fit comfortably in my front pocket, preferably one that recoils like a .22. They don’t make one. I’ve looked. Meanwhile, I’m very confident with my abilities with my little .380 and I’m confident it will do what I expect of it, if required.

  19. My experience in order of importance:
    1. Bullet placement
    2. Bullet placement
    3. Then, bullet placement with the largest caliber you can control and consistently place your bullet where you want it to go.

  20. If there was ever a “Zombie” topic it would be this. It just refuses to die. My unprofessional opinion is that bigger is better but training is best. Missing with a .50BMG counts less than hitting with a 9mm HST. If the average gun fight is over in less than 7 rounds (which I understand to be true) then the higher round count per mag is not relevant. I practice with and carry my compact 45ACP, but I do carry a spare mag, just in case the other guys are right.

  21. I know we are talking about pistol rds but hydra static shock does come into play. I have read autopsy reports where people who were shot with 9mm had very little but some bleeding on the brain and that was a hit in the upper chest. I’m not a 100% sure but I think it was Evan Marshal who published these autopsies, it has been a long time since I have read them.
    My main carry is the 9mm 124grs +p Gold Dots at 1300fps this load is not but 100fps off of the 125gr 357 loads. I do carry a EAA Witness in 10mm with Underwood Ammo 155gr XTPs at 1500fps or I carry Underwood Ammo 180 XTPs at 1300 fps.
    Taking the formula to figure kinetic energy which is Velocity squared times bullet weight in grains divided by 450240 the 9mm Gold Dots have 465ft/p of energy. The 10mm 155gr at 1500fps gives you 774 ft/p. The 45 auto +p 200gr Gold Dots have 518 ft/p.
    I have never liked big slow bullets. I will take the 9mm over the 45 any day. And if I think I need more then I will carry my 10mm.
    Mas you are the guru here. What caliber do you find yourself carrying the most?

  22. The argument is kind of misleading. Back when 9mm was compared to other ammo all the ammos were on from the same era.

    Now we have advanced 9mm ammo and comparing it to the original ammo it is awesome.

    However that is not the point. Lets compare the Advanced 9mm to the Advanced .45 or 10mm, and Voila the gap reappears again.

    Comparing the new 9mm ammo to the old stuff shows a definite improvement, but comparing the new 9mm with similarly new .45 or 10mm shows the reality of the situation. That nothing has changed.

  23. I consider it a no brainer. push a big thing into a live organism, big damage, push a small thing into a live organism, small damage.
    I’ve owned 1911s since I was a young teen, love ’em for their simplicity, heft and neat appearance. Too bad 57 years has passed since my first one, carrying one does not work so I carry a SIG .380 with Critical Defense ammo. If I ever find myself in a gunfight I will no doubt regret not having my 1911 but at least I will have A gun, first rule for a gunfight.

  25. I favor the .45, but I’d still like to see some testing that includes the 7.62×25 Tokarev, which is about as opposite the .45 as you can get – 85 grains at 1700 fps, more or less.

    Unfortunately all the Tokarev ammo I’m aware of is FMJ. While comparing to .45 hardball might be appropriate, modern “defensive” bullets are usually some sort of controlled-expansion hollowpoints, and while hardball is just fine for targets or plinking it’s not what I’d want for a defensive scenario.

  26. As I understand the most recent FBI report, they begin with the observation that police have about a 30% hit rate in actual shooting events and that, in training at least, the hit rate or at least scores are less with heavier recoiling calibers. Thus, at least based upon this data, a hit with a “lesser caliber” is better than a miss with a “greater caliber”. Add to that the fact that almost all police issue sidearms have 10 rounds or more, usually more, of 9mm which gives the officer more opportunities for a hit without reloading and it is little wonder that many departments are switching to 9s. Consider the lower training costs (for ammo) and the increasing number of multiple assailant gunfights and it would be a surprise if more departments did not make the switch.

    One point that wasn’t discussed was the fact that many of the current generation of expanding bullets have experienced expansion of 9mm bullets to a surprisingly close diameter of expanded .45 bullets. Is there any surprise at the change made.

  27. Both my wife and I have .40 S&W. My thinking was that she was as accurate with the .40 as the 9 mm so since no one has repealed the Laws of Physics (force = mass x velocity) bigger /faster is better. We shoot t at least once a month, and train at Front Sight twice a year and we both can consistently hit the thoracic cavity at 3 to 15 yards. The .40 S&W works for us both and eliminates the possibility of the wrong ammo caliber loaded by mistake. We don’t have as many had guns as some on this blog who collect guns, we just have defensive guns.

    Our defense handgun load is CorBon’s 135 JPH which has a 1325 velocity and 525 foot pounds muzzle energy and compared to the 9mm (.35) is only 85% as big as a .40, so a generally faster larger bullet is arriving with more impact force. There are fewer rounds 16 not 21 in a standard full size magazine but the fewer shots fired the easier the legal aftermath. The prosecutor saying the victim was shot 4,5 or 6 times which was excessive. Of course the victim’s criminal history may be inadmissible so the more stopping power per round = fewer rounds needed, the better you look.

    We have a group of over 40 that shoot and take training consistently the calibers are across the board .38 to .45, for some a 9 mm is all they can shoot and hit the target consistently. A 9mm on target is better than a .45 miss. Some who are older don’t have the ability any more to accurately fire larger caliber or +P rounds.

    The question is how many people, not reading this blog, are knowledgeable enough to chose and pay a $1.25 plus for a high performance defensive round. It is expensive just to test firer these round just to make sure they feed and perform consistently in all your weapons.

    This issue is not new to me and many people ask me for guidance about guns and ammo. I have put together some info on the subject. Below I have provided the ballistics for 9 mm, .40 S&W and .45 from the CorBon Ammunition which is clearly on the higher performance end of available ammo. Additionally I included Federal in 9 mm because their 9 mm 115 is supposed to be one of the best stopping rounds in the standard 9 mm.

    My bottom line is with YOUR ACCURACY + Most Velocity, +Heaviest Load + Largest Bullet Circumference = Your Maximum Stopping Power.

    Come up with your own conclusions based on the ballistics and the is a web link at the end to see how your ammo of choice stacks up. If any one has other good web sources please share them.

    Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
    40 SW JHP 135 526 1325
    40 SW JHP 150 480 1200
    40 SW JHP 165 485 1150
    40 SW DPX 140 448 1200

    Cor-Bon Ammunition Ballistics

    Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
    9mm DPX 95 357 1300
    9mm +P DPX 115 399 1250
    9mm +P JHP 90 450 1500
    9mm +P JHP 115 466 1350
    9mm +P JHP 125 434 1250

    Cor-Bon Ammunition Ballistics

    Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
    45 ACP +P DPX 185 475 1075
    45 ACP DPX 160 392 1050
    45 ACP DPX 160 392 1050
    45 ACP +P DPX 185 475 1075
    45 ACP FMJ 230 287 750
    45 ACP FMJ 230 287 750
    45 ACP +P JHP 165 573 1250
    45 ACP +P JHP 185 543 1150
    45 ACP +P JHP 200 490 1050
    45 ACP +P JHP 230 461 950

    I have no connection at all with corbon ammunition or ballistics 101 but have found the ammo excelent and the ballistics 101web site helpful. You might want to check out how your ammo compares.

    http://www.ballistics101.com/about_us.php

  28. Here is the Federal info it was omitted from my earlier post. Sorry about the formatting it did not come through as formatted when it transitioned to the blog.

    Federal Ammunition Ballistics

    Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
    9mm FMJ 124 364 1150
    9mm FMJ 115 356 1180
    9mm FMJFP 147 326 1000
    9mm TMJ 124 345 1120
    9mm TMJ 147 326 1000
    9mm JHP 115 356 1180
    9mm Hyd-Shok 124 345 1120
    9mm Hyd-Shok 147 326 1000
    9mm Hyd-Shok 105 353 1230
    9mm EFMJ 105 337 1060

  29. Mas, thanks for the response to my comment. I live in the woods on a river. I pay attention to a guy I read named Ayoob. When messing around in the woods and walking the dog I carry a G23 with 155 gr Gold Dots ’cause this Ayoob guy has said this is so very close to the 158 gr 357 and I may run into a large disagreeable creature of the four legged type. For my home I have a suppressed G17, day/nite TruGlos, 33rd G mag loaded with 115 gr +P+ Gold Dots. It resides in the safe unless I’m home. It’s still loud, but not totally ear drum destroying in a room. My wife has “Wolf Ears” if she has to use her short butt 18″ 870. My car weapon is a G19 with Ranger 127 +P+’s. The G19 with an extra mag fits perfectly in an Uncle Mike’s belt pouch. But……..(like Jerry the Geek), my wife and I both carry G42’s. Mine in my pocket holster,, Uncle Mike’s #4, and hers in a holster purse. Why? Because they’re handy enough to carry all the time and not totally impotent with Hornaday Critical Defense loads. I have many friends who swear by their 45’s, but rarely carry them except one guy with a G30s. The others just won’t carry 3 lb loaded 1911’s. I know this is long and boring and I apologize, but caliber just does not mean as much as it used to with the better projectiles we have access to today. If I really TOTALLY followed this Ayoob guy I would have nothing but 357 Sig’s, (I do have a G32 ), in case I’ve got to shoot through cars or trucks. I really respect the 45ACP, but it won’t do a damn thing more than the best loads in 9, 357, and 40.

  30. In a medical career that has given me extensive experience (read thousands of hours) in emergency medicine, trauma surgery and forensic pathology, including a stint as State Medical Examiner, my opinion is that the modern 9mm is equivalent to the modern .45, and the 10mm is more potent than either, although only incrementally.

    ALL calibers require careful ammo selection, as manufacturers notoriously download all calibers with certain of their loadings, and often without making it clear that they have “nerfed” the rounds. I personally carry either a 9mm or a 10mm, not wanting suffer the capacity loss of pistols chambered in .45. I fervently hope I never need to “perform the indicated response.”

  31. I believe that shot placement is paramount at all times and is always the number one most important and decisive factor in firearms of all types, in all disciplines and for any application/purpose. The odds of good shot placement are improved by confidence and familiarity (IE practice with and knowledge of) the chosen system.

    So for a side arm for wilderness carry in a wild place like Alaska as an example, if you have something along the lines of a .500 Wyoming Express or .50 AE you may not practice as much as you would if you had a .460 S&W mag that could also chamber .45lc (as will the .454 Casull), .454 Casull and the .460 S&W round itself. By the same token it may be difficult for many folks to easily obtain enough quality practice ammunition for the 10mm auto, yet it may not be. Maybe some people are just profoundly talented and do not require the same amount of practice as the rest of us do to make quality shots.

    Ultimately as per caliber – I say use what you have! It will work if you do your part.

    P.S. –

    I am saddened to learn of the passing of Dr. Martin Fackler. I have enjoyed reading his work. This is the first I have heard of his passing. He will be missed!

  32. I did wound channel volume calculations for the .45, .40/10mm, and .38/9mm. Assuming equal penetration (11 inches) with out considering expansion, hydrostatic shock, or deviation in trajectory, I came up with the following numbers.

    .45 = 100% (maximum damage)
    .40 = 70% (of the .45’s damage)
    .355 = 49% (of the .45’s damage)

    This is based only on volume of tissue damaged in the first 11 inches and, again, is assuming no expansion or hydrostatic shock effects. This is for the sake of discussion only. I’ll take any of the three as long as they are reliable and loaded with high quality defensive ammunition.

  33. Various 9mm and couple of snub nose revolvers in 38 special are my standbys at this time of life.

    I specifically use the Federal 9bp (the classic line) in 115 gr jhp at standard velocity. I have found that if a pistol feeds ball it will, in my experience, feed the Federal 9bp. Naturally, I still shoot my carry ammo frequently just to be sure. With this load that is not a great financial burden. I even put a round in practice box after one or two chambering.

    I have found 9mm in general to feed well and have had problems with 40 cal. especially in glock and I like the light weight glocks, such as, the G26.

    I am at medicare age and want to keep shooting and have seen friends have wrist problems, which I have avoided so far. Then there is back problems that I have also avoided. So I favor pistols for carry that are both light to carry and light recoiling.

    Comes down for me to standardization, reliability, and avoiding wrist and back problems.

  35. I recently read a fine article on this subject by Duane Thomas (The Truth About Handguns, from Duane’s webpage). I believe that he is on to something in this debate. Thomas postulates that there are four reasons why people don’t stop when shot: (1) body armor, (2) drugs, (3) adrenaline, and (4) you missed. Items 1-3 are totally out of the defender’s control. So, it would seem that the main reason people don’t stop when shot, with any caliber projectile, out of any gun, is largely beyond your control and has very little, if anything, to do with your handgun’s caliber or ammunition. The only thing over which you really have control is whether or not you miss. The vast majority of people don’t have the skill level necessary to swiftly and accurately put their bullets where they’ll do the most good in a defensive emergency. This is, in my and Mr. Thomas’ opinion, the single greatest cause of “stopping power failures.” Bottom line, obtain competent firearms instruction (note: unashamed commercial plug for Mag-40 class), go to the range weekly, hit what you aim at, and carry what makes you feel safe! Remember, guns don’t kill people, sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control do!

  36. Mas, As a old, fat jarhead that was trained with a 1911a1 I tend to still favor it. If the current USMC Special Operators are returning to the 1911 in .45 that’s good enough for me. My normal around town carry is a commander size .45 but for day trips or over night adventures I usually carry a Glock 23 because it is lighter and I don’t have to carry a extra mag. I will repeat what many others here have written = front sight, front sight, front sight and squeeze.

  37. Getting the first hit with CORBON .357 hollow point from a revolver, at or near the CNS, trumps everything else. That is the closest thing to a hand grenade from a quick and handy peashooter. Did a .357 not end the 1986 Miami shoot-out? Firepower comes next, with a RELIABLE SEMI-AUTO, which in my experience has always been something of an oxymoron, but a necessary evil.

    Double wield greatly increases your chance of hitting your target on the heartbeat, which will maximally utilize hydrostatic shock.

    Are you being outgunned? I had a friend who carried an M-79 grenade launcher who was taken out by an enemy mortar. Back off and bomb.

  38. And so the pistol/revolver caliber debate rages on. But judging by after-action accounts of handgun fights, the most important factor seems to be where the “winner” (if there was one) was the person who kept his or her cool and demonstrated good marksmanship.

  39. As with jack76590, I have a supply of the Federal Classic 9bp—that I bought before the last ammo crunch at a close-out sale in our local Walmart for $9/50 rounds. I cleaned out their supply of around 20 boxes, and gave many as gifts and stocking stuffers since. I practice with them occasionally in the Shield I recently picked up; Illinois only recently got CCW and I’ve been carrying my J-frames primarily, as I am most familiar with the double-action revolver and have passed a highly respected class with them— one of few who have, per the instructor. Ammo availability for .38 Spl is poor in my area, so I run the Critical Defense 110 grain that is the only abundant higher-end round in good supply; it’s in all of my speedloaders and speedstrips. In my “bigger is better” .44, it’s Gold Dot .44 Spl. That is darn hard to find! The Shield hasn’t been a primary gun yet, but the mags have Hornady XTP in them. As others have said, I sincerely hope I never have to use these in a defensive situation, but am able to put them where they need to be if necessary. Meanwhile, I will note that most of the gad guys are buying the cheapest ammo they can find, according to local aw enforcement, which is a bit of cold comfort for us good guys.

  40. The .45ACP was developed because it was found that the standard issue .38 was significantly less effective against the determined opponents in the war in the Philippines. The .45 was the answer to that problem and became the sidearm for our military for decades to come.

    I was in the last class of old school military. I carried a 1911, M14, and Remington 870 shotgun, all proven man stoppers. I have never gotten into .40, 9mm, or .556 even though they are proven and effective.

    For me it comes down to just one thing. If I am ever forced to shoot someone I may only be able to get one shot off. I am a hell of a shot at the range but all that changes with the dynamic of self defense. If I can only get one shot off I want the hole that shot makes to be as large as it possibly can be. If I have to bet my life on just that one shot I want it to be from my .45ACP. I know the rounds I use typically expand to the size of a quarter. I wouldn’t want a hole that big made anywhere in my body.

  41. It should be obvious that effectiveness increases as bullet diameter, bullet weight, bullet speed and magazine capacity increase. If that were the only concern, we should all carry .44 mag Desert Eagles. But there are other factors that make a theoretically less effective weapon more effective in practice. Heavy recoil or a poor fit to the shooter’s hand adversely affect accuracy of rapid fire. Good concealment limits weapon size. Therefore, the best compromise is the biggest, most powerful gun one can shoot and carry well. For some, that may mean a full-size, steel 1911 in 10 mm. For others, it may mean .380 Kahr.

  42. Reply to TRX re: 7.62X25 JHP
    JHP in this caliber is available from Prvi Partisan (I just bought 2 boxes @ Cabela’s) and Reed’s Ammunition & Research, LLC. It would be interesting to see how .30 Tok JHP works in the Real World. I really like the TT33, and think that with a fluff’n’buff trigger job and Seecamp 2-screw accuracy inst’l it could be a pretty good carry piece.

  43. Ad-hominem—To the man ; appealing to personal interests, prejudices, or emotions rather than to reason. American Heritage Dictionary Yep, I had to look it up!

    Doesn’t leave much room for discussion when you exclude personal interests.
    So, when comparing bullets; you have to compare apples to apples. Hard ball .45acp to .380 acp hardball etc. High performance .45acp to high performance .380acp and so on. You also have to be able to place the bullet properly and if we are talking ccw, is the weapon choice suitable. I have a Glock 36 (single stack .45acp, 6 rd mag) also have Glock 30S (double stack .45acp, 10rd mag that can also accept a 13 rd mag in a tactical reload.) The slide on both guns are essentially the same and they use the same holster . One is suitable for summer wear and one is heavier and somewhat more bulky.
    Almost 2 years ago, when Illinois was debating the ccw issue, I was a caller on a radio talk program. The host wanted to know why someone needed to carry a firearm. I called in and stated that I did not want to be a victim. That pretty much shut the host down; he couldn’t very well say that he wanted to be a victim. He then wanted to know what make and model I was going to carry and I asked him which 3 did he want to know about. That really shook him up as he thought I was going to carry all 3 at the same time. I had to explain that the seasons would dictate which piece would be suitable. I guess what I am saying is that the topic is a package deal. Chosen weapon, cartridge type and caliber, your ability to hit with it and method of carry.

  44. I worship at the altar of Ayoob. I have found that no words uttered from his voice, keyboard or pen shall be infringed.
    An former Atlanta police officer, on a fairly recent TV show I watch noted that in their department, the nine is fine.
    I suggest we all search for as much shooting incident information as we can find, and case-by-case, learn from each one and all go to the range until we can keyhole every target, and maintain that skill.
    If you haven’t already (including me), read all books from the altar, attend his classes and read all 21 or so of his emails on the Zimmerman case.

  46. I find it interesting how nobody has yet mentioned Marshall and Sanow’s work. To summarize, what they found analyzing thousands of actual police shootings, was that handgun bullets reach a maximum one-shot stop effectiveness in the low to mid 90% range, a statistic that was largely caliber-independent.

  47. Mas, I read in one of your books at one time that you were pleased with the .357 SIG. Where does it fit into all of this?

  48. Mas, you should have known that this would cause a flurry of comments so let me add my non-expert comments.

    As I understand it, bullets incapacitate in 3 ways: break a bone (think AK Brown bear shot in shoulder), hydrostatic shock creating a “stroke” in the brain (think 150 gr. .300 Wby on a mule deer) or bleeding. In defensive pistol, we are really talking about the last one.

    I don’t really see current testing doing a good job of estimating the blood loss creation of particular rounds. Blood loss capacity creation I believe, is a factor of the _surface area_ of the cut flesh by the bullet. An unexpanded 9mm would create cut flesh surface area of 3.14 x .35 x length of penetration. For a .45 it would be 3.14 x .45 x length of penetration. Once you figure in bullet expansion, then the biggest expanded bullet, penetrating the deepest (without exiting) would win.

    The next logical (and heretical) assertion I’d make is that bullet weight retention isn’t important, and is in fact could be a NEGATIVE. If you could create more cut flesh surface area by having the bullet go in 3″ and then separate into a dozen fragments that further penetrated, cutting flesh every inch of the way, that is what you’d want as long as you got enough penetration to make more surface area of cut flesh. Cut flesh = bleeding. More cut flesh = faster bleeding = faster threat stoppage.

    Ballistic gel tests that I’ve seen don’t quite have the ability to measure the cut gelatin area but if/once someone figured THAT out, we’d really have some insights into the figures that really matter for any individual round fired in extremis.

  49. The GREAT men and women who have served in the long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are my heroes, even though they are half my age. I would like to hear what those with combat experience can tell us about the terminal performance of various rounds. I know rifles don’t win wars, they are used for mop up operations these days, but there has been so much combat over there that we should have many cases from which to learn.

  50. As I see it, this argument hinges on the relative effectiveness of bleed-out in stopping a gunfight— compared to penetration.

    How much does that bigger hole matter?

    Do you want a bigger hole— or a deeper one?

    The .45 produces a hole that’s 60% bigger than the hole produced by the 9mm or the .357 Sig… so all else being equal, bleed-out can be assumed to happen at a 60% faster rate with the .45. Over at Evan Marshall’s Stopping Power forum, Jim Higganbotham has been advancing this argument in favor of the .45 for some time now.

    So if bleed-out is what stops gunfights, then the .45 is the clear winner.

    OTOH— comparing loads of roughly equal kinetic energy— the .357 Sig— with it’s smaller-diameter bullet moving faster— is likely to give significantly deeper penetration than the .45 (all else being equal). What the .45 gains in its ability to make a bigger hole, it loses in its ability to penetrate.

    So the question becomes: what’s more effective at stopping gunfights: bleed-out or penetration?

    Related to this is the fact that many— perhaps most— gunfights stop because one of the people chooses to stop fighting; not because their ability to fight has been destroyed. They decide to give up, rather than being ‘put out of action’ by the bullet. They could keep fighting, but decide not to.

    On the flip side, we’ve all heard stories of men (and women) who just refused to give up: who were shot one or more times, but who just wouldn’t quit: who were gravely wounded, effectively ‘dead on their feet’— they would eventually die from the wounds they’d received— but who kept on fighting until loss of blood brought them down; because none of the rounds that hit them had destroyed their ability to fight back. The two bad guys in the infamous ‘FBI Miami shoot-out’ are a case in point.

    The truth seems to be that only a hit to the CNS (the central nervous system: the brain or spine) will immediately stop a determined adversary. Hit him anywhere else— even in the heart— and he can still keep on fighting for a time, if he has the will. Only a hit to the CNS can be counted on to immediately destroy your opponent’s ability to fight back.

    So if I’m looking for a bullet/load that will give me the best chance of stopping my adversary now— not two or three minutes from now— I’ll want the one that gives me the best chance of penetrating all the way to the spine, or boring into the skull; rather than the one that gives me the best bleed-out.

    That’s why I prefer a round that will penetrate deeper, over one that will make bigger holes. That’s why I carry the .357 Sig (DPX) in my handguns rather than the .45.

    Of course, none of this matters without good shot placement.

Newer Comments »

Comments are closed.