If you follow this blog regularly, you know that among other activities at our MAG-180 class last month in Wisconsin, we trained and certified about three dozen Handgun Retention and Disarming Instructors. Thus, I found this article in the Tactical Wire by veteran cop, ace instructor, and old friend Rich Grassi to be particularly timely.
There’s currently a thread on gun grabs on the S&W forum. It was mainly concerned with those who open carry….But: I’ve noticed the very few open carry folks I’ve seen seem to regard the gun as a fetish that will, by its presence, prevent violence. If they were aware of their surroundings, it was on a Yoda like level I couldn’t detect.
Moving on to holsters, one of the things we all took from our long ago Retention/Disarming Instructor class was that the paddle holsters of the day were pretty much useless in helping you prevent the gun grab. I know the lure of the paddle is being able to swap the gun around easily. Far better to break out the plastic and buy several good holsters with belt loops.
You might also consider at least one holster for the “other” hand. I own exactly one-well maybe 3 if you count belt slides. I expect I’ll be wearing one of them when I go out today. Just bruising, but the gun hand is temporarily less than 100%.
Be aware of your surroundings and practice.
Main reason I avoid open carry – if the perp cannot see the gun on you, then he can’t grab it. I feel that the surprise (to the perp) when the gun comes out is to my advantage. What he can’t see he will not expect or plan for it.
I don’t open carry, but if I felt the need, I would use a retention holster. I am not persuaded about the preventive effect that the open carry supposedly has on the perp. YMMV.
Great article. Always good to refresh and practice technique.
I’ve taught handgun retention at the Firearms Academy of Seattle for over 15 years. If one insists on openly carrying, for Gawd sakes use a STURDY holster, preferably a beefy LE duty one. We regularly break “non-LE” kydex OWB holsters doing gun snatches. Stress points are the screws holes/rivets and anywhere the kydex edges make a sharp angle. Good leather gear holds up better than kydex but can still be stretched enough to fail if the snatcher is determined.
Don’t cheap out….
WM, one other thing regarding “the other hand” is using it to grab your own hidden spare gun to shoot the gun grabber, or if your primary gun hand is still holding on to your gun and opportunity obtains, pull your own concealed fixed-blade or quick-blade knife to deliver a disarming or incapacitating strike or slash to the adversary’s hand, wrist, eyes, or whatever else might be necessary, to prevent disarm. A gun being grabbed is a totally life-threatening event, and just about any means necessary to thwart illegal disarming is justified. Being ready to be ruthless is unfortunately an important part of effective self-defense. Basically amputating a gun grabber’s hand or two off before you let go of the gun handle, for example, should add to your immediate survival.
As an elderly private citizen (not LEO) CCW, I have a couple of questions about retention and carry methods. One, any suggestions for secure IWB carry of a small semiautomatic (Ruger LC9, LCP MAX) or revolver (S&W 642, Ruger LCR)? Two, what about front pocket carry of a small semiautomatic or revolver? Does the pocket itself aid security? Three, any thoughts about retaining a small gun during a struggle for it? There’s not much to hang onto.
On retaining the smaller frame revolvers, most of us who practice gun fu (borrowed from Mas) generally fit larger stocks that give you a medium frame grip. This gives you a much more secure hold during either firing or retention. The BG is left with whatever’s left over to try and grab. Beyond that, the general idea is not to let the BG get that close.
Pocket carry can work well if you’re not sitting down. You still need a holster, the pockets need to be somewhat roomy and these days seem to be made of really cheap, thin material that will wear easily. Any local seamstress or tailor should be able to provide you with more sturdy pockets. Coat pockets work well in colder weather.
I’ve never tried to IWB J frames or similar. Usually use OWB or pocket. Go with what you can use well. You can dress around the gun, don’t concentrate on getting the cutest, smallest tool.
As brother Moore said, the small gun doesn’t give the attacker much purchase, but affords less to the shooter as well unless larger grips are used. In pocket carry, a gun snatcher essentially has to pick your pocket. Retention would be to trap the offending hand tight into hip and upper thigh and turn sharply into it, bending the offender’s wrist back until it breaks and you feel him let go.
If there was a national championship of handgun retention, i’d want to compete with a snub-nose .38 with full, stippled grip. If there was a national championship of handgun disarming I would cheerfully furnish my opponent with a long-barrel Buntline Special and the smoothest, slickest, smallest grips available. 🙂
I have a holster from the fellow in Florida who offers a model that snaps around one’s belt. Maybe not as secure as a loop holster, but better than a paddle design and convenient for lazy individuals, such as myself. The snaps are fairly heavy-duty. During my usual daily activities, I routinely visit places unfriendly to carrying, like the PO, Hospital, and State or County – run facilities.
What are the advantages of open carry? Seems an invite to be the first one shot in a spree.
nicholas kane,
Many of us believe the disadvantages of open carry outweigh the advantages. John Farnam says when open carrying, you can expect to spend time talking to police officers. Scared observers may call the police and report a, “man with a gun.”
The advantages of open carry are that it is more comfortable than concealed carry, quicker on the draw, and easier to carry larger, heavier guns (with more ammo capacity than smaller, easily concealed guns). It would be nice if all fifty states contained enlightened citizens, who believe in the Second Amendment, but it doesn’t. Many Americans, especially city slickers, are sheeple. Some Americans are as terrified by guns as Europeans are.
Some open carriers report that people don’t really notice their guns, or if they do, they are not concerned. People are looking at their phones, and they are distracted by whatever.
The disadvantages of open carry are, being the first one targeted by a perpetrator, as you pointed out, having the gun grabbed, and scaring sheeple.
Here, in a rural part of New Jersey, an anti-gun state, I once saw a man open carry a gun in a restaurant, with his wife and two young children. My conclusion was that he was an active duty cop, who was off-duty. His presence comforted me, although my county has very little violent crime.
Some people are afraid when they are around guns, and some people are afraid when they are not around guns.
I have heard that in the Old West, in the 1800s, people assumed men who hid their guns were devious criminals. Good men would show their guns openly. If I am not mistaken, there are, or recently were, states that required guns in cars to be visible on the dashboard, for the same reason.
In most parts of America, in public, not in the woods, it seems to be best to have good, trained citizens carry their guns concealed. That way, the bad guys don’t know who is armed, and the sheeple don’t panic. Such an area is safe, because of the armed defenders, but it looks “normal,” and unthreatening.
‘John Farnam says when open carrying, you can expect to spend time talking to police officers. Scared observers may call the police and report a, “man with a gun.”’
I’m wondering if my memory has failed me. It may not have been John Farnam who wrote the quote above. It may have been Mas. I read both blogs, and in the early 2000s I read through Jeff Cooper’s sayings, which had been published in the back of a magazine.
My apologies to Mas if he is the one who warned us that, if we were to open carry, we could expect to spend time talking to police officers.
What a drag it is getting old. (Mick Jagger singing, “Mother’s Little Helper”)
It was probably both of us. John and I both normally carry concealed. I open carry now and then in public where it’s legal, just to gauge current public response. Result is always the same: most people don’t notice, but SOMEONE sees it and gets nervous. I don’t think I have the right to do that to people. I normally open carry only on my own property or in “gun venues” such as classes, where it is expected. I want people to have the right to do it, but in most cases, it seems to me that the “cons” outweigh the “pros.” I’ve been retired from police work for six years now and am no longer required to openly carry in uniform.
From the linked article: “Over the many years of my career, I’ve seen the officers killed statistics from FBI/UCR vary. For the longest time, around 20% or so of officers feloniously killed were killed with their own gun or a partner’s gun.”
It seems to me that the dangers of a “gun grab” increase with the openness of being armed. In other words:
1) The people most at risk of being disarmed and shot by their own weapon are uniformed police officers. They are openly armed with their firearm “all hanging out there” for the World to see and, possibly, grab. I am not surprised that a significant number of police officers are shot with either their own firearm or a partner’s firearm.
2) The people at the next level of risk are private citizens who open carry. In my State, open carry is legal if one has an enhanced handgun carry permit (HCP). Yet, few people choose to do so. Over the years, the number of private citizens that I have personally observed using “Open Carry” could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. I am sure that there are hundreds of people who carry concealed for every one who open carries in my State. I expect that people (overwhelmingly) choose to carry concealed because (a) they don’t want the attention that open carry brings, (b) they want to have that “surprise factor” in their favor if they have to defend themselves, and (c) they want to lower the risk of a gun grab by concealing the weapon. Certainly, those are the reasons that I choose to always carry concealed.
3) As noted above, the third level of risk would be the concealed carrier who hides the firearm from potential (non-political) gun-grabbers. 🙂
The above is my view of the matter. However, I will admit, it is all just theory and speculation on my part.
Mas, does anyone have any statistics on private citizen deaths, at the hands of criminals, with their own firearms? This is a standard fear-mongering ploy of the anti-gunners. “Don’t own a gun” (they will say). A criminal will only take it away from you and shoot you with your own firearm”.
How much truth is in this fear-mongering statement? If we know that about 20% of police shootings occur with their own (or a partner’s firearm), what are the statistics for someone who is open carrying being disarmed and shot with their own weapon? What are the statistics for someone who uses concealed carry to be disarmed and shot with their own weapon?
Does anyone have any idea? Is there any hard data, at all, to guide us? Or is it all just speculation, theory, and (from the anti-gunners) fear-mongering?
I did a quick web search. Data on this topic seems to be sorely lacking. I did find one “Fact Check” article that (sort of) addressed this question. See this link:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/apr/16/joe-biden/biden-says-most-shootings-happen-victims-own-gun/
From this article, it seems important to define your terms. The anti-gunners love to throw suicides into the “Firearm-Death” pot because they help their statistics. It also allows them to conflate suicide deaths with deaths from criminal violence (which is deeply deceptive).
In cases of suicide by firearm, the firearm is (very often) a weapon owned by the suicide victim or his/her family.
However, this fact-check article seems to imply that it is very unlikely for a criminal to disarm a citizen and then shoot him/her with their own firearm as per the fear-mongering claim of the anti-gunners. Unfortunately, the “fact-checkers” provide no statistics. They seem to have merely talked to various, anonymous “experts” and are relaying the consensus of these “experts”.
I can’t recall any news stories about some victim being disarmed and then shot with their own weapon but I am sure they exist. However, disarming an “aware” defender is neither easy nor safe.
Consider that Martin seems to have tried (or at least threatened) to disarm George Zimmerman. The threat was that Zimmerman would be shot with his own handgun once disarmed. The response by Zimmerman? He pulled the handgun and shot Martin dead. Clearly, the disarm attempt failed.
The same thing was true in the high-profile case of Kyle Rittenhouse. Multiple people attacked Rittenhouse with some actually reaching for his weapon so as to disarm him. In no case did it turn out well for the attacker.
I suppose that surprise is a big factor in the disarm success rate. If the armed person is caught “off guard” by the disarm attempt, it is likely to succeed. On the other hand, if the defender is alert, the success rate is probably poor.
As always, mindset and situational awareness are key factors in self-defense.
TN_MAN,
About disarming civilian concealed carry individuals. It may help to look at women defending themselves from rapes with handguns. Do the women get disarmed? Rape is going to be at contact distance, and the rapist might even be known to the victim. Can a victim draw her gun and shoot, or threaten to shoot a rapist who has already grabbed her?
Years ago a diminutive relative of mine told me she had no interest in guns because she believed she would be disarmed.
@ Roger Willco – “It may help to look at women…”
I did a quick web search for “Woman disarmed shot with her own gun”, however, what pops up to the top of the list is this news report:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/illinois-police-officer-pleaded-life-was-fatally-shot-gun-prosecutors-rcna10875
Not a civilian case at all. Rather, another case of an officer being killed with their own firearm. However, this was not the typical “disarm and quickly shoot” action. Rather, this seems a deliberate murder with the police weapon being used because the original criminal weapon malfunctioned.
A terrible case but it does not address the concerns over civilian disarmament.
I spend years researching handgun homicide stats. At the time, no one gave a damn about where the gun came from-at least so far as the official totals were concerned. I’d expect that would have to be gleaned from the investigators reports for each incident. I’d expect little enthusiasm for yet another official report. OTOH, the reports on the illicit use of snatched LEO guns has direct bearing on training, tactics and, of course budget.
Maybe check with John Lott? Would seem to be a rich field for research-assuming he could get access to official records, which might be a problem.
My experience with the “facts & stats” presented by the various anti-groups strongly suggests that the danger claim is male bovine excrement. Hell, Dr. Lott’s stats on defensive gun use make it certainty. I would expect that those without proper defensive training might be more likely to have the issue than those who do.
Roger Willco wrote:
‘Some Americans are as terrified by guns as Europeans are.’
When people here in the UK tell me how they ‘don’t want armed police ,as it would feel threatening’.
I ask them where they last holidayed.
And get the usual: Europe, Florida, New York……
All have armed police.
I then point out they seem to have no problem with armed police around them on holiday. But think british cops should die because strangely they have a totally different mindset at home.
Count me as one who would like to see statistics. While I conceal carry to gain tactical advantage, I am a numbers guy who likes data rather than opinion.
I live in an area where open carry is common and culturally accepted. I even see it in the bank. I have heard no local reports of gun grabs.
Another question I have is the danger to LE a side effect of their duty to contact suspicious individuals where armed citizens can simply keep their distance.
Richard,
Don’t move. You live in Paradise, and you have high quality neighbors.
The abbreviated version…
Concealed: You have the choice as to whether to become involved or to what degree. ou also maintain the element of surprise.
Open: Whether you want to be or not, you ARE involved.
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