DEATH OF A COP-KILLER

“The cop-killer died with a bullet wound inflicted by one of his victims still festering in his abdomen.”

A wound caused by what pistol caliber? I’m very curious about which aspects of this wound made it non-incapacitating.

Good riddance! And thanks, Mas, for speaking your mind right past all of the politically correct bovine defection.

There’ll be a bunch of lawyers getting haircuts tomorrow before they approach the monster’s relatives offering to defend them and represent them in lawsuits against the city – pro bono, of course, at least until the TV cameras go away.

like Mas said punk got what he had comming
glad the man that shot him was cool headed and did the job that needed done, to weel done and thanks for saving us tax dollars
I pray that the sobs that try to find you wrong have a run in with a thug like this cop killer so you will wake up

Swellcat, the investigating agencies have not announced that yet, but info from trusted sources indicates the Sergeant, the last to fall, shot the perp twice in K-5 zone with 9mm Glock. One bullet reportedly went through and through, the other hit some object in the perp’s clothing and only went in a couple of inches. Perp then shot the sergeant in the face according to this source, and when the sergeant fell, carefully and deliberately shot him again through each eyeball. He then calmly rifled the sergeant’s wallet, took the LPD Glock 17, left his own gun behind, and departed in a vehicle driven by another party. The Sergeant’s Glock 17 was apparently the gun he was trying to kill the Seattle officer with when the latter cut him down with an SPD issue Glock 22 loaded with 180 grain Gold Dot .40 caliber.

Mas, do you know if the 9mm was FMJ, thus penetrating clear thru the dirtbag?

Austin, that’s unknown to me at this time.

Details I mentioned here in the commentary are all unofficial at this writing. Let’s see what comes out officially.

I don’t know of any law enforcement agencies in the US (except some military police) using full metal jacket ammo on duty.

Overpenetrations with little expansion and sometimes no expansion were fairly common with the early generation of 147 grain subsonic 9mm in conventional jacketed hollow point format. The higher tech 147 grain subsonic rounds of today (Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger-T, etc.) are much less prone to that. Most departments still using 147 grain 9mm subsonic have gone to the better high tech loads, but some — St. Louis PD, for example — are still using the older style stuff. I don’t know yet what Lakewood PD issues for their 9mms.

Will let you know here, if & when I find out more.

Sincerely,
Mas

So glad they they caught with this guy. What a miserable failure or our justice system. Bleeding heart liberals here in the Seattle area are complaining that he didn’t get due process. In this case, due process was a 40 caliber slug. No more tax dollars wasted.

Thanks Mas. Appreciate and enjoy your work and commitment.

Mas;
You say that Huckabee “sacked up and took responsibility for his actions.”
I beg to disagree. Huckabee posted a “yes, but” evasion, and did his best to avoid taking responsibility.
He said: “I take full responsibility for my actions of nine years ago…If I could have possibly known what Clemmons would do nine years later, I obviously would have made a different decision…”
(Yes, I take full responsibility, but the result of my actions were beyond my control.)

Reports here are that the LPD officer hit him just above the belly button with a .40 cal round; they found a .38 revolver with 6 rounds fired and a 9mm with 1 round fired, and 2 fired casings from the .40 at the scene.

No surprise that he was caught so quickly the way hundreds of officers have been turning the whole area upside down looking for this guy. Even the NAACP/ Urban League leaders have been encouraging black males in the proper age range to stay off the streets until the hunt was over. I sure as heck would have stayed home if I looked anything like the guy they wanted.

When a shooting happens, people are quick to ask, “What caliber?” I understand the impulse, but I think it’s misdirected. First, as we all know, 9mm FMJ and hollow-point are worlds apart, and 115gr hollow-point is further distinct from 147gr, as Mas points out. So, instead of asking, “What caliber,” it’d be better to ask, “What caliber and bullet?” But even then, it’s just one data point, from which few meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Some calibers and bullets are more reliable man-stoppers than others, but any single round can fail to stop or totally put down any single person on any given day. When analyzing the effectiveness of various loads, I think it’s far better to look at statistical data, which is exactly what Mas has done in his articles, books, and classes.

I find it hard to believe that the egg sucking libereals forgot to tell the scumbag that it was illegal for a felon to possess a fire arm. I guess if he had known that, three good men and women would still be alive and enjoying their families right now. Goes to show the gun grabbers that we need more crime control and less gun control. Maybe if one of the law abiding citizens in the coffe shop had been armed, they could have rendered assistance and maybe saved a life or two.

The Libs are always looking for a victim to love, so it’s no surprise they’re clinging to this one.

The piece of offal got less than what he deserved. His actions hurt hundreds of people and he should have been tortured and publicly hung, but instead he got off easy and was shot dead.

My heart goes out to the families and communities of those slain by this garbage. I encourage any LEO that is able to, please attend the funerals and have the procession make a statement to those that would make war on the law.

Rob R., I’m glad the perp was dealt with, and the officer who shot him had no choice, but it still would have been better if he’d been tried in court. Maybe it makes me an “egg-sucking liberal,” but I don’t want to live in any society where people are tortured and hanged. Sounds a little too much like Saudi Arabia to me.

I hope he rots in hell and it would not bother me any if those helping him did too, or at least rot in prison.

Kudos to the sharp-eyed, quick thinking and well trained policeman doing his duty. However, I cannot see where Mr. Hukabee really “took responsibility” for his commuting of the shooter’s 108-year prison sentence (and sentences of many other criminals who were lawfully imprisoned). It is clear though, that officers Renninger, Owens, Griswold, and Richards incurred the consequences of Hukabee’s actions. I wonder if Mr Ayoob would have been quite so forgiving if some “bleeding heart libbyral” had let this monster out of prison.

Well I guess Huck is going to have to absorb the above kind of comments. Following on the wacky reasoning, how about his 4th grade teacher? I guess you hold that SOB accountable too for not putting a stop to the madness? How about the nurse at the time of his delivery? Damm if we could only be 100% sure of every action we take we would all be geniuses just like these guys.

I am sure every cop that issued a speeding ticket should nash their teeth and rent their garments because some knucklehead 10 years later hurt someone in an accident.

It alludes me how if there are a half dozen events just prior to some tragic action, you forget all about the most recent actions and reach back to someone making a reasonable decision a decade ago. As for commuting a ludicrous century plus sentence for a robbery then just remember when they hand out those 108 year sentences to 16 year olds, that you also should be cheering for the “max” sentence that David Olafson got or the treatment Randy Weaver got. You would just love living in Saudi Arabia.

Although no longer an LEO, I legally carried my Ruger LCR .38 SPL loaded with 110 gr. Hornady FTX bullets everywhere in the Seattle area following these heinous Lakewood murders. When I heard that one of the four murdered cops managed to put a slug into his killer, I figured it would not take long to bring him down. Good work by the Seattle officer. End of the revolving door of justice for Mr. Clemmons, at last.

Now Arkansas needs to fix its broken criminal justice system. Today, Washington Governor Gregoire announced that Washington will be accepting no more parolees from Arkansas until that state fixes its mess.

I also found ex-Governor Huckabee’s explanation inadequate and unpersuasive – unless he just considers himself to be a rubber stamp. I believe that this ends his political career with the Republican Party.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010400526_shootinghelp02m.html

Quick update, gang. More aiding and abetting arrests. Also, prosecutor’s office says Sgt. Renninger shot the killer with a .40 caliber Glock, not a 9mm as I got via a source on the ground there last night. This .40 Glock, taken from the scene by the cop-killer, was apparently the one he had when he was justifiably killed by the Seattle officer.

The murder weapons were apparently a .38 caliber six-shot revolver, which was shot dry, and a 9mm pistol which appears to have been the gun Clemmons finished his murder spree with. At least one if not both of the murder weapons were stolen.

All we have to go on are reports as they come in. Experience has taught me that the early reports don’t always have everything nailed down.

Stay tuned,
Mas

What’s always fascinating about such officer-involved shootings, enormity of the tragedy aside for just a second, is when the final showdown is between the perpetrator and a lone officer who was just out there doing his regular duties, no swat team, no stake-out squad, albeit at maybe a slightly higher level of awareness than we all might normally have. That’s what brings it home as to how prepared to react we always need to be…

Plenty of fault all around. For example, consider:

“Clemmons’ bail was set at $190,000 for two seperate felonies. He made bail by posting ten percent as the bond fee and security for the balance. In addition, he was ordered to wear a GPS device, so his movements could be tracked. Unfortunately, Clemmons cut off the device the morning of the murders. But most importantly, law enforcement was not notified he had done so, even though the monitoring system was immediately notified. The reason? The monitoring system is a private vendor that has no process for notifying law enforcement, just the court (which was closed because it was a weekend).”

Excellent work by an alert officer. Yet another reminder to be vigilant. Every contact that officers make can end in gunfire.

Perhaps those crying in Seattle should review Romans 13:4.

There’s a picture of Clemmon’s body floating around; it definitely shows a serious GSW right above the belly button with large bruised area around it. Hard to believe he was still on his feet.

Here are some thoughts on the issue from someone who is not (and never was) an LEO.

First, as an old Commander of mine used to say, “Bullets are cheaper” (than judicial action under legal statute or in that case, the Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ).

Second, the decision to die WAS MADE BY “the criminal”. He chose (in this case) to resist arrest (after previously murdering four police officers who were not aware of his presence or his intentions) instead of “assuming the position” with hands on the hood of the car or against some other convenient surface.

It is often reported after the fact that criminals were heard (before the fact) to utter, “They’ll never take me alive…” (or similar words to that effect). This would lead me to conclude that this was in essence, another form of “Suicide by Cop”.

Third, had the criminal chosen to surrender (made the conscience decision to turn himself in before hand), the police would have accepted his surrender and “preferred charges” in order to allow the legal system to proceed as it is designed to do. The criminal, in this instance chose not to do so; I’M NOT SORRY! The resulting trial would have run into the “hundreds of thousands” (if not “millions”) of dollars with tax payer funds. Then there would have been the innumerable appeals followed by years of “food, clothing, and entertainment” at a federal penal institution (possibly on “Death Row” – even more expensive). Compare all that to the cost of one or two 9mm or possibly 40 caliber rounds.

It’s over AND I’M GLAD HE’S DEAD! I will save my remorse (and my prayers) for the spouses and children of the slain police officers!

…A Retired Army Master Sergeant who lives in Alaska

Just finished watching a History Channel program of various film shot in Dallas the day JFK was killed, much of it was shot of radio and TV announcers reporting the “facts,” such as that the 6.5 x 55mm Carcano was “about the same as a .30-06.” These guys just ad libbed from scanty reporting in the field, and I’m afraid it’s not much better today.

One of the shops in Seattle has told me in the past that the SPD does in fact issue .40 cal ammo for its LEOs. As a former Seattle resident and son of two generations of law enforcement officers in this State, [Washington] Id like to respectfully disagree with the insinuation that the [liberal] folks of this State are somehow outraged and sad that this monster was not afforded more consideration. [Simply untrue and misleading!] Those who have defended this cowardly killer appear to be a handful of brother[s] in law, wives and friends within his narrow circle of supporters who gave aid. “Sacking Up” is not going to replace the family those nine kids had. [Strike two on Huck] The killer and all those who aided him should and I believe will be, prosecuted! Finally, I believe Arkansas should start addressing its criminal justice issues and keep their, “Cop Killers” within their own borders. Thoughts and prayers are with the families of the deceased officers.

I keep thinking about the officer who had to end the bad guy’s life. A hero? Definitely. But taking Clemmons’ life, terrible bad guy as he was, can be a hard thing to live with. I hope the officer can cope with it, and I give him my praise for doing what was necessary.

As a retired leo who was also put in a situation where deadly force was used to end a really bad situation, I can say from my experience that the “bad guy” was afforded every opportunity to stop his aggressive actions and simply give up. Yet HE chose what the eventual outcome would be. The way I see, HE made the choice, I didn’t. I did my job. My partner and I went home at the end of our day. That’s what is important.
That Seattle officer should not give it another thought, he did what he was trained to do, what he HAD to do…
Job well done Sir!

Pardon the Rant
But how is gods name is this piece of crap running around. I like huckabee but what was he thinking when he communted this thugs prison time. I understand he was 16 when he commited his crimes but then in prison he was no clean prisoner. Everyone deserves as many chances as can be given I am all for rehabilitation but there must be something to show a person is trying to change. This thug made no move to change, he is just like the trash in Connecticut that raped and burned the mother and daughter to death when they both should have been in prosion forever. This crap of restorative justice is one major cause of this over reaching desire to blame the victim and not the criminal.
As always I wish the best for the families of these slain officers.

We lost an officer Thursay night.

Phillip Davis, with the Pelham AL Police Dept, was shot at a traffic stop. His killer, a pharmacist whose brother is also an LEO with another department, checked out clean during the stop.

http://blog.al.com/birmingham-news-stories/2009/12/pelham_officers_slaying_baffle.html

Madness…

RE: The Pelham killing
A police officer I spoke with (from another agency, but who assisted with the initial investigation) told me that the killer was involved in “boosting” drugs.

Mas: Do you believe that through your contacts and knowledge, you can find out the armed response from Fort Hood and from Seattle/Tacoma? I wonder if the officers who shot Hassan were able to use effective hollow points or if they used 9mm military “ball” ammunition? Do you believe that the report ordered by Secretary Gates will reveal this to the public?

I would also like to ask if the Geneva Conventions still prohibit any hollow point ammunition and if you believe that this restriction would be enforced on US military bases? Thank you.

Fred Bartlett

Mas,

I’ve heard you speak about ammunition selection in the ProArms Podcast. Do you still feel 9mm is a viable caliber compared to say 40 S&W? I suspect your answer is going to be “training and shot placement”, but I’d like your opinion.

(On your advice, my Glock 19 is loaded with Winchester Ranger 124 +P and 127 +P+)

Thanks for everything you do, I’m a better gun owner for it.

Thanks Andrew.
Solid choices on your part. I use the Winchester 127 grain +P+ Ranger in my own 9mm Glocks.
best,
Mas

Hi Mas,

What do you think of the Corbon 9mm 115gr +P load? I carry it in my Glock 26 Anklegun. (With .45 230gr HST +P in my 5″ Kimber and/or .45 230gr Hydroshoks in my 4″ and 3″ Kimbers).

Do you think there’s a whole lot of terminal performance difference between my 115gr +P Corbons and the very-hard-to-procure Winchester 127gr +P+ you’re carrying?

Thanks for your time,

John

John, the 115 grain Cor-Bon is an extremely dynamic 9mm load. It generally gave about a 10″ penetration level in calibrated 10% (Fackler formula) ballistic gelatin, but with a very wide wound channel. If you have it on hand and know it will feed in your weapon (which goes for ANY ammunition) I’d consider you “good to go.”
best,
Mas

Thanks for the quick reply Mas! Eventually when the budget allows me to get enough of the Winchester 127+P+ to test it thoroughly in our 9mm Glocks, I’ll probably change over to it. But that will be a lot of ammo, as I don’t feel comfortable carrying a load until I’ve put at least 200 rounds of it through each pistol it’s to be used in with complete reliablilty (and in addition to my Glock 26, there’s the Glock 19 my wife carries).

But in the mean time, it’s good to know that those Corbons I now rely on up to par. And yes, they’ve been 100% reliable in both out Glocks (as have everything we’ve ever put through them).

Best wishes,

John

Please excuse the typos in the reply I just made – it’s late and my brain is shutting down for the night!

# Steve M. Says: “Rob R., I’m glad the perp was dealt with, and the officer who shot him had no choice, but it still would have been better if he’d been tried in court.”

Steve, for the reason you gave, it is indeed better for a policeman to take a copkiller alive IF THE COPKILLER OFFERS HIS SURRENDER.

But I don’t see any reason to consider the whole outcome better when the copkiller offers his surrender than when he is killed justifiably, and I see many preferable aspects to the latter (e.g. lower expenses, no chance of him being released). Admittedly, those advantages wouldn’t justify refusing a copkiller’s surrender had it been offered, but that’s not what happened.

Mas,

I didn’t read all of the replies, but the bad guy was shot, by both officers who shot him, using a Glock 22 loaded with the 180gr Gold Dot.

All;
Gut shots are very ineffective unless the spine or one of the “big bleeders” is hit. Doc Willaims of Tactical Anatomy fame teaches the three zones on a bad guy where bullets will do you some good, outside of these areas you can’t count on anything working, even “real guns” like .30cal rifles and 12 gauge shotguns.