With our fifty-state patchwork quilt of gun laws, it’s often difficult to know where the armed citizen is legal, and where he or she is not.  I constantly check what I consider to be the most up to date sources, handgunlaw.us on the net and the app “Legal Heat.”

If you’re a citizen frustrated by this, you may be comforted to know that off-duty and retired law enforcement officers run into the same sort of issues. When in San Diego last Wednesday, I ran across this in that city’s Union-Tribune newspaper.

26 COMMENTS

  1. Wow, I bet there’s a lot of interesting detail behind that Union-Tribune story. I’ve taken a look and cannot quickly find any other news stories about it, so we may just have to wait to see if any additional information turns up.

  2. Mas,
    Good find. That retired officer spent a dangerous 2 hours in that general pop holding cell. Luckily no one knew him or recognized him. This sounds typical for California which is a shame. Sometimes the right hand does not know what the left is doing. However, I never carry a fanny pack, always a loose fitting shirt that is made to hang freely and cover my belt holster.

  3. Unbelievable! LEOs arresting LEOs! The school principal is an idiot, and the sheriff’s deputy needs to learn when to disobey unlawful orders. I hope every LEO in the country learns about this case.

    As a civilian, I hope LEOs learn from this that they can be treated just like us. Put yourself in the place of the principal. You just had a retired LEO carry a gun onto your campus. I would be thanking him for making my campus safer. As a principal, I’d be carrying two guns myself.

  6. As a civilian CCW permit holder I recognize that one of the frailties of that license is the lack of universal standards across America concerning training and competency. Some states require that civilians pass an NRA basic pistol class and others are okay with over-21 applicants merely showing a pulse–and no criminal or mental health convictions. In many of the latter venues the CCW holders are so incompetent that I wouldn’t want be near them on a shooting range. These discrepancies arguably can be related to the longstanding states’ rights disputes. Still, speaking only for myself, I see nothing unconstitutional about insisting that all states adopt minimum CCW training standards. It might quell some of the public’s fears about legally concealed firearms.

  7. If the police can’t determine gun carry laws for them selves. How are us mere mortals to figure out the regs?
    In Illinois you are ok to enter a restaurant if food sales are more than 50%. If liquor sales are more than 50% then you have to leave your piece unloaded and cased in your vehicle. More ADs have probably been triggered while seated in your car while you wrestle with the seat belt, unloading, casing and locking the piece up, not to mention doing the same thing in reverse when leaving.
    How many restaurants are willing to post their sales percentages next to the door. Of course they can just post the no gun signs and leave them permanently in place and hope they don’t lose too much business

  8. If people knew and understood their Federal and State Constitutions, and insisted that the people they elect did also, we wouldn’t have these problems. We got what we deserve. Since the Fed is an organization of the States, the remedy must begin at the State level.

    States can refuse to recognize and enforce Federal laws that are unconstitutional (and therefore not laws at all). This is a States Right. The checks and balances that used to guarantee states rights was that all US Senators were to be elected by their State Legislators.

    The States, and the people, can restore a lawful Federal Government through the process of Nullification. Some states are already threatening this. But we the people first have to clean out the Rats Nest in our own States.

    There are many places I would like to go visit in the US, including Californica.
    Several decades ago my home state of Oregon began to be Californicated by refugees of that state. That’s how we learned about the “California Stop” at stop signs and red lights. We learned that in California, STOP doesn’t really mean STOP, unless you get caught.

    Now days I am an expatriated Oregon citizen. It is so socialistic and progressive (read that as “Pinko”), I don’t feel safe or free there. I avoid these places like the plague.

    If you are too young to understand “Pinko”, then you have a lot of homework to do. It means to favor Communism, by whatever name they go by. Currently that would be “Progressive”.

    I don’t have much time left before my carcass in buried and I go to a much better place. But I mourn for my children an theirs. If the rule of law is not re-established, then beware, the dark ages of totalitarianism are at the door.

  9. I was an assistant principal for a year. It is required that you be an idiot. I came to my senses and went back to teaching.

  11. Randy, My understanding is that the the IL concealed carry act was amended to remove the language that required the firearm to be unloaded (Section 65, (a-10),b. when stored in the car. If I am mistaken please let me know. Appreciate it, Phippa from IL

  12. That story “almost” makes me wish some confused police officer would harass and falsely arrest me, that I might have a shot at the 20 million dollar lottery.
    Would be interesting to learn if that particular suing officer ever mistakenly arrested anyone in his 33 years with the CHP.

  13. Why should anyone be granted privileges that other citizens are denied?

    Fat fingers and a worn out keyboard…

    Should read – Why should anyone be granted privileges when other citizens are denied their constitutionally protected rights?

    Sometimes cut and paste just doesn’t work the way it should.

  17. I’ve used both sources that Mass has listed (handgunlaw.us and Legal Heat) as well as others (a great one in Michigan is MCGR (Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners).
    So here is the problem. handgunlaw.us says that a person with a Michigan CPL can carry in Nevada (reciprocity), but Legal Heat says no.
    What’s a responsible citizen suppose to do????????
    I will be calling the Michigan State Police to solve my dilemma. But this situation make me wonder about site reliability!!

  18. @Mary Beth Robinette: No offense to Mas or the other LEOs here, but the story linked by Mas probably illustrates that the worst possible person to ask for advice about the law is often a cop. In your case, in particular, asking the Michigan State Police about what the law is in Nevada is probably going to be very close to being worth what you will pay them for that advice: nothing. Similarly, it doesn’t surprise me that handgunlaw.us and Legal Heat disagree. Even if they’re written by lawyers, keeping up with the changes in the law (and especially on non-statutory regulatory matters) has to be done daily if those sources are to be trusted and when things are done for free, maintenance can be lax. (And can I point out that handgunlaw.us says on its front page that you should not rely on it, “Where we have made every possible effort to insure these maps and information are accurate as of the last update found in the top left corner of this page, it is your responsibility to verify the data offered.”) If they’re not written by lawyers, then it would be truly foolish to rely upon them. If I was a CFL carrier with so much on the line — i.e. being put in prison and fined and my firearm confiscated — I certainly wouldn’t rely on any of those sources without verifying them with a lawyer in the state I was traveling to or, at the very least, with whatever governmental agency in that state is responsible for determining reciprocity.

    Nevada statutes (Nevada Revised Statutes 202.3688-202.3689) say that the Nevada Department of Public Safety has the obligation to put out a list of the states whose CFLs will be honored. A link to the current list can be found on this page of the NDPSs website:

    http://gsd.nv.gov/FeesForms/Brady/CCW-Permit-Recognition/

    Here’s the interesting thing about that list and Michigan. Michigan is on the list, but it has an asterisk beside it without any explanation of what that asterisk means. That asterisk almost certainly means “Michigan, yeah but….” If it were me, I’d call the phone number on that list and ask what the asterisk means and if no one can explain it (or they say, “oops, typo”) I’d ask them when a list without the asterisk is going to be put up and I wouldn’t step foot into the state while carrying until they did that.

    Finally, whatever the asterisk means, it’s important to remember that even if they recognize your permit, that doesn’t mean that they recognize it in the same way that Michigan recognizes it. For example (and I’m totally making this example up), it may be perfectly legal to carry in a bank with a CFL in Michigan but just because they recognize your permit doesn’t mean that it’s legal to carry in a bank in Nevada if Nevada law says that CFL holders can’t carry in banks. All reciprocal recognition does is to give you the same rights to carry as Nevada CFL carriers have and it’s up to you to know what those are. The fact sheets from handgunlaw.us give some of that information but, like they say, you can’t rely upon it, so you might want to also ask them where to get information about where and when you can carry there.

  19. PS to Mary Beth (and anyone else planning on engaging in reciprocal carry in Nevada): Just an interesting thought. One of the statutory criteria for a state getting on Nevada’s CFL reciprocity list is that the state maintains “an electronic database which identifies each individual who possesses a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm issued by that state and which a law enforcement officer in this State may access at all times through a national law enforcement telecommunications system.” Lets say that you have a CFL from Kansas, a state that’s on Nevada’s list (and doesn’t, like Michigan, have an asterisk — whatever that means — by its name). Do you KNOW that your name is ACTUALLY in Kansas’ database and hasn’t been accidentally omitted, or misspelled, or matched with the wrong permit number, or just not gotten around to being entered yet? Was your CFL issued yesterday and you’re going to Nevada tomorrow? Because the Nevada law is certainly set up to insure that when a LEO stops you and you show him your Kansas CFL that he’ll be able to confirm it electronically. If he calls it in and you’re not there or anything doesn’t match, the results may be inconvenient or worse.

  20. All the points raised by Liberal Dave, above, serve as an excellent illustration as to why we need National Right to Carry. At least to the “full faith and credit” extent of requiring all States to honor concealed carry licenses issued by other States.

  21. Phippa–
    You are correct. My fingers were faster than my brain. I did get an e-mail from the ISRA to that effect.
    But that brings up another question: since the state police issue the permits, shouldn’t they be required to send out notices to any changes to the state law?
    The act of reholstering while seated in a vehicle can be dangerous in itself. I used to have a picture posted in our club house of a cop that reholstered his Glock during quals. and got the draw string from his windbreaker caught in the trigger guard. The hp bullet skidded down his leg and exited on the other side. Doing it while seated in our small cars brings to mind how porcupines do.

  22. The deputy was instructed to search the guy by the Principle? Why did the deputy not instruct the principal to FO? This is complete BS…this guys whole day (couple days) were ruined by people who will bare no personal responsibilty for their actions. If the retired cop wins his lawsuit and I pray he does, the tax payers will pay and the responsible people will move on to victimize some other poor SOB just exercising his rights.

  23. Liberal Dave,

    Thanks for the advice on how to walk through a legal minefield. Very discouraging, but it shows how important it is for a firearm to be very well concealed, and to obey all traffic laws while driving.

    As for concealment, on youtube.com I heard James Yeager say he was only caught carrying a concealed pistol once in twenty years of carrying. A bartender lady saw his ankle holster when his pant leg snuck up too far. She was OK with it.

    Man’s laws are so complicated, they make God’s laws (I’m thinking of Leviticus and Deuteronomy) look simple by comparison. It’s very discouraging to think about all these carry laws in fifty states, and then to read about the fight to prove your innocence in court after a justified shooting.

    I guess we are still better off than most of Europe. I’m sure crossbow sales have increased over there, along with cricket bats and canes.

  24. Thanks for the good advise, Dave.
    I will be checking out the information that you supplied and will also have our Son
    check with a CPL instructor in the State of Nevada.

    I was aware that even when a State recognizes your CPL that you must comply with their State Laws. But thanks for mentioning that fact.
    It’s definitely challenging to travel with a gun.

  25. Some time ago, in another gun magazine Mr. Ayoob offered his opinion on the actions of the police in the event nationwide gun confiscation became reality. As I remember, Mr. Ayoob claimed that the majority of the officers he knew would oppose and refuse to carry out such an order. I thought then and I think now that the majority of LEOs would react just as the deputy did in this news article. Ignore law and common sense for the chance to bully and intimidate someone else. In this case the former CHP officer apparently knew enough not to assert his rights or resist and thus avoided the pepper spray and/or Tazer. The deputy also knew full well the danger he was putting the former CHP officer in when he put him in the general population. Perhaps the CHP officer actually did a little assertion of his rights somewhere along the line and the deputy thought he’d get a little payback. That just occurred to me as I was writing this. That would align well with how some get treated if they dare to not be fully intimidated.
    There may be more facts to this event that have not been reported.

    I was watching a video the other day taken by someone who entered a sobriety check point. Now, admittedly, the driver was out trying to be a total PITA and to perhaps provoke the officers manning the checkpoint. This is usually the case with these videos. However, at one point you can hear the driver attempt to assert his Constitutional rights. The officer replies, “This is a DUI checkpoint and you have no Constitutional rights.”

    Sadly, too many officers share this view in most situations. This is why I am fully in favor of body cameras on all LEOs at all times. As in the Old West where the saying arose that, “An armed society is a polite society,” knowing they are being recorded will lead to a much more lawful society.

  26. MichaelJT,

    Thanks for your comments. My guess is that both Mas and you are right. Mas is right, the majority of police officers will refuse to obey an unlawful order to confiscate the guns of law abiding officers. You will probably find that some police in big cities, and the “slave” states of HI, CA, IL, MA, NY, NJ and MD will obey such orders. The case we are discussing happened in California. It’s no surprise that we would find uneducated officers there, as that is one of the “slave” states, not one of the “free” states.

Comments are closed.