CLEARING UP MISCONCEPTIONS

Mr. Ayoob,

I notice you did not address the problem of LEOs approaching “civilians” with their hand on their service weapon. This is done routinely, it is the rule not the exception.

This behavior is unnecessary, insulting and menacing. It breeds distrust of law enforcement.

If a “civilian” approached a cop in this manner he would be shot dead and you would call it justified.

Would you care to touch this issue with a 10 foot cattle prod? Or will you just repeat over and over again how wonderful cops are?

We are not buying that line.

Dear God, Thank you for airing these issues.

At the heart of it, hypocricy and jealously ,along with a huge dollop of ignorance and an inability to understand the idea of “context” drives the anti-cop prejudice (and it is prejudice).

I happen to be an American of African decent, and people look at me sideways when I tell them this: I’ve experianced much more Prejudice (and people confuse the term prejudice with discrimination, but I’m talking about prejudice) as a Law Enforcement Officer than I ever have as a black man. And I’m totally serious.

Not that I’m complaining, when you accept public money you accept the fact that not all of the public is tottally reasonable (or sane). But sometimes I think it would simply be nice if people were less prone to judge me as a member of a group they don’t like and more prone to judge me as the individual I am. Just like they want me to do to them.

To Ivan Pisstoff,

Modern Law ENFORCEMENT Officers have become the standing army that our founders warned us of. Read about the treatment of the colonists by the king’s soldiers and then compare it to our current mistreatment by the newest incarnation of the “RedCoat.” While the color of the uniform may have changed one thing is still obvious…he who takes the king’s coin becomes the king’s man. Modern Law ENFORCEMENT officers do NOT serve the people, they serve the current incarnation of the king. Once you realize that the rest makes sense.

I know that the freedoms I have seen erased before my very eyes in the more than four decades I have drawn breath are staggering. If you are as old as you allude to in your post then it must appear that we have been relegated back into a state of serfdom to you. And who pray tell are the ones to impose and ENFORCE all of those unconstitutional infringements upon our liberty? They are the ones who continually spout the same old tired and worn excuses like: “I am only doing my job” and “the law is the law, you must obey the law” or “don’t blame me, blame the politicians” and on and on and on. They have more excuses to justify their abuse of their countrymen than I have ever seen. And finally, to those of you who question the lords in blue their ultimate response is “you will submit/comply/obey or else!” They forget that there is a simple concept called discretion which used to be taught back when they were “Peace Officers” and that the use of it went a long way toward endearing them to the people. Now they only seem to understand the rote application of the law, common sense, understanding, and compassion appear to be things of the past.

The 85 year old Korean War combat infantryman who forgot to put on his seatbelt is guilty. Who cares that he has gotten a bit absent minded in his old age, he is guilty and he must pay. Who cares that if he pays the ticket he must forgoe his prescription because what is most important is that the revenue agents in blue generate the money to justify their next union negotiated pay raise. He even justified the response of three squad cars for no seatbelt with the officer walking up with his hand on the pistol grip…all the while the gangs in my city in Kollectivistafornia run free unmolested. Three cars for a senior citizen while no one goes after the real criminals. But hey, real criminals are dangerous and have no money to pay the fines so instead we will just shake down John Q Public as he is an easy mark. Why risk themselves since going home at the end of the shift is the most important thing as they have all told you.

All of you police state apologists and badge worshippers would have been “Tories” back in the day. You are unworthy of the title American. To you I close with the following quote by Samuel Adams:

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

Trouble with verbal oath is there many policemen who do not swear oath up hold Constitution like you do Mass do not beleave up hold rights Constitution . You know police deparment from Las Angles New York Chicago all claim work hard press case most of what in Constitution does apple how cops do there job there. You have same 3 police departments pushing ant gun agenda ant right for concealed care permits to public. You know many same type police deparments pushing for all guns have only ten round magazine only. You know 3 these big citys oath up hold constitution is joke becuase Constitution say ever man and woman has right owen firearms New York Chicago Washington DC say sorry your not allowed to even after win case say they where allowed to. Mass are gone keep swearing to oath when some one comes long change buy not allowing you owen any kind of guns make you criminal if do not turn your high cap magazine or guns becuase oath you swore no longer allowes you owen them.

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/05/action-alert-trial-of-john-kurtz-facing.html#more

well, i’m sure someone might have a comment on this… (compared to the deafening silence so far on all the other instances provided)

very strange the video camera containing the evidence has gone missing isn’t it?

though, i suppose we’ll get no response from mas or the other law abiding officers on this one too. after all silence is consent – is it not?

so will all the law abiding officers give their public disapproval and denounce the actions of this as well as the other questionable videos provided?

dsd, you’re making my point for me. You expect “all the law abiding officers (to) give their public disapproval and denounce the actions” of police…based on your attachment, a one-sided blog editorial.

The trial is coming in that case. Follow it. LISTEN TO BOTH SIDES, and then judge. That’s how the system works, dsd. Listening to both sides is part and parcel of justice.

best,
Mas

thank you mas, i do appreciate that you are in fact reading the comments.

i do expect the trial to be a bit unfair in the case that the main piece of evidence is now missing. i wonder if they will grant any favor to the defendant in that respect. also i hope they can examine and fairly determine the amount of cases in which main pieces of evidence go missing and if that can affect the outcome of the trial.

but the underlying threat is the issue for any citizen – how would you like to spend a night or two or more in jail because you were legally videotaping a public incident? or is the increasing fear or being arrested as intended keeping people silent?

the end result either way is this person who really was doing nothing illegal has been brought into the legal system by an officer – who the citizen now has to spend time in jail and most likely a very expensive defense to prevent his further incarceration. while the officer has others to fight his side of the charge and he remains free – many officers like this have a record of proven actions like this yet they still go on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHkmRJ00TNA

did this news reporter arrested for videotaping an officer as well in the link above do anything wrong that you can see? if you are even looking at an officer now you can be charged with “interfering with a criminal investigation” and your hard earned dollars to fight the bogus charge.

then in the end it seems very little to nothing ever happens to the officers to pursue these bogus charges. even if the charges are dropped the citizen has suffered an injustice. good luck wasting more or your dollars with a civil suit against the deep pockets of the local government – you may want to move out of town as well…

that is where the “both sides” of justice has gone awry. it is slanted heavily towards the “system” which is enforcing and making the rules of the “system”

i would expect “some” of the law abiding officers to at least weigh in and denounce the actions – so far i’ve seen none – i mean we’ve certainly have more then enough espousing their blind defense of all officers actions without listening to both sides haven’t we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6yJHGAwU2g

are you saying that you cannot make a judgement by the treatment of the officer on this 15 year old girl?

and lastly mas, calling everyone a cop hater and saying they are not thinking critically is not listening to both sides either… you made the original one sided statements that started all of this

many of us are just trying to shed some light on the other side. based on my families history or police or fire related careers, i’ve thought many times of joining the police force – a few things stop me each time, the main one being i could NOT work with officers who break the law or abuse the constitution as i hold it in high regard and i also know the repercussions that would (do) happen if i were to be the one who “pushed” the topic about any bad cops. see just like the bad citizens, the bad cops are not afraid of the law either…

dsd, you write above: “…and lastly mas, calling everyone a cop hater and saying they are not thinking critically is not listening to both sides either… you made the original one sided statements that started all of this.”

I’d like you to go back over the preceding material and show me that, or where I ever implied that EVERYONE criticising a police action was a cop-hater. My concern is those who make blanket judgments having seen only one side of an issue.

The best one line summation to describe what is wrong with modern Law ENFORCEMENT:

“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it” – Frederic Bastait

Besides the platitudes and the tired and thoroughly disproven mantra of “to protect and serve” the only ones cops serve these days is themselves. In my city as in mmost others the police union has gone over the top to prevent any pay cuts or loss of benefits for our so called “servants” when those in the private sector have taken as much as 30% cuts and lost all benefits, not to merntion the 19% unemployment rarte.

Want to know why a majority of people on your recent posts have been angry? It is the total lack of accountability, respect, common sense, fairness, and the loss of equlaity which seems to be the norm of modern LE today when dealing with the public. I won’t bother you with all of my multiple examples because it won’t do any good anyway based on your comments and recenet posts but I can tell you with certainty that when someone like myself who has a lily white record (and a security clearance for two decades), is a 15+ year Army combat Arms veteran with a family history of military service going back to the Revolution and an ancestor who was a Signer of the Declaration I can tell you that your “brothers in blue” have a problem on thier hands. At the VFW and Legion I talk to vets from WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and the 100 hour FTX in the Gulf who all have lost respect and trust for cops. When the “Greatest Generation” no longer respects you you know you have got SERIOUS problems.

As a long time subscriber to this magazine and knowing it to be associated with the freedom movement (and by your contributions to it you are also included in the freedom movement) I can not tell you how highly dissapointed I am with your condescending attitude and lack of a lucid response to 99% of the commentors here who have raised valid points and have had genuine concerns. Many of whom I assume are also subscribers. That is not a way to increase magazine circulation. This is the first time I have ever commented on one of these posts so out of touch with the people were your musings. Well I guess I have learned another truth about cops:

We now know that a cop’s loyalty to other cops trumps his loyalty to the people and the Constitution…even when said cop is supposedly associated with RKBA issues and nominally a member of the freedom movement.

The trust meter which was alreacy at an all time low is now registering in the negative.

Mas,
I have just one comment regarding your point of “If you don’t like the drug laws, work to change them”. It is indeed a most excellent viewpoint, and one with which I heartily agree.

Unfortunately, we the people of the United States as a whole have approximately zero power to change the laws, particularly those which are extremely profitable to supply equipment to enforce and those which can be successfully used to leverage large increased in Federal-level police powers. America has lost the War on Drugs, because we set out with a flawed and misconceived strategy, which predictably failed; but the government won, with an entire new Federal police agency and a whole host of new powers from warrantless searches and no-knock entry to far-reaching new surveillance powers. The agencies that owe their existence to the Losing War On Some Drugs and the War Against Anything We Can Get Away With Calling Terrorism are not about to give up their powers of their budgets.

So, it would be a great sentiment, if the US Government still served the United States of America and the people thereof. But it does not, and has not for many decades now. It serves, first and foremost, itself; and where we object, we become, in its eyes, the enemy.

Great point Mas, but I doubt if any logical debate will occur or any opinions will change here. IMHO it’s pretty hard to change the point of view of anyone who sympathically labels drug dealers as “non-violent.” They are near-sighted in the fact that drug dealers’ actions reach farther than the end of any weapon. Lacking accountability for their actions and readily blaming others’ for their problems with the law, they are hopeless minds who are not worthy of any more blog space. Please continue to write interesting articles for the rest of us and nevermind those nay-sayers.

I’m an atheist, so I don’t say any prayer’s when I hear about a cop getting killed. But I sure do have a party in my head.

Cops are arrogant worthless POS’s.

Is it just me, or does it seem that any time a politician, public servant, petty official etc gets caught doing wrong and it hits the media (of any flavor) it is invaribly stated as being “taken out of context?” When an unaffiliated citizen does something wrong and it is publicized it is always “within context” should be taken at face value and should not be questioned etc.

About the “Militarization of police myth”, it’s just that, a MYTH. As with most Myths, it’s based on a prevelent logical fallcy (actually a number of them, but I’m talking about the main one). I’ve heard it called the “Andy Griffith Fallacy”.

It’s the idea that “in the past” policing was different, cops “knew their place” and now cops are running wild. The people who hold to this view are, quite frankly, stupid. It’s like the “Black Rifle” hysteria that anti-gunners have, those of us who know anything about firearms know how wrong the anti-gun people are, but they are convinced they are right.

The “militarization” crowd totally missed the Tommie Guns cops carried in the 20s and 30s, they missed the lever-action rifles of the late 1800s when the military was armed with less useful hand and shoulder weapons ect ect. They fail to realize that Western Law Enforcement has been para-military in sturcture AND operation since French King XIV appointed the very 1st modern police chief, the Lieutenant General of the Paris Police Prefecture.

Contributing to the fallacy is technology. Lots of things happened in the past that didn’t end up on youtube, because there was no youtube. Just like with any news in general, the vast bulk of American cops who never get in trouble never make the news, but those that do make the news or the internet are the ones people (especially cop haters) remember.

Like any other biased people, cop haters see only those things that bolster what they want to believe in the 1st place, and ignore all evidence that their beliefs are false. That means their is probably no reasoning with them.

Point blank, it’s usually an ego problem. Some people need an enemy, some imaginary ‘oppressor” that they can say (in their own warped minds) that they (the good, the righteous, the heroic) are prepared to stand against. For racists, that’s people of another race, for anti-2a people, it’s those evil guns, for liberals/socialists, it’s those fascist corporations who conspire to hold the people down lol ect ect.

As you can see, for some folks who posted here, it’s the government and/or the occupying army aka the police.

I’d also like to point out something with dsd’s comments. One thing that is typical of cop haters is pointing to a narrow range of incidents that somehow prove their point, without providing any real context.

So, here is some context. Their are close to 850k LEOs in the United States, serving a population of 310 million plus people. 850k is a huge number, and that’s what the people who post these incidents don’t understand.

If you posted 100 videos per day, each on showing a differnet cop doing something evil, it would take you 23.2 YEARS to reach the number 850,000 (ie 1 video for each serving LEO), that does not include all the people who will join the police in the next 23 years, just those serving right now.

So really, those videos anti-cops love to show are, by definition, only isolated incidents.

“So, here is some context. Their are close to 850k LEOs in the United States, serving a population of 310 million plus people. 850k is a huge number, and that’s what the people who post these incidents don’t understand.”

So, here is some other context. 310million plus, is a number bigger than huge. Those 310 million do not deserve to be treated like criminals by the 850k just because some of those 310 million are criminals.

It goes back to their being a perception problem with modern law enfocement and it has to be addressed and fixed by those within that community. The 310 million do not depend on the 850K for their livelyhoods, existence etc. Those 850K do depend on the 310 million and should remember that.

big tex

i don’t care if it is one incident – if it is against our constitution or what an average citizen could do then it is too much – there is (was) only one hitler or OBL but by your justification that would mean out of the billions of people in the world their actions should be excused as they were an isolated incident in the large scale of humanity. yet we all know those one persons should and have been held accountable for their actions and crimes and not diluted down in a larger pool of actions for their defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6yJHGAwU2g

do you think this cop should keep his badge? i do not. if he was in my precinct or community i would want him gone – the citizens in his community should want him gone lest their child walking away be next – if this was your daughter (despite how unruly she was acting) could you justify this aggression against her?

this is what is happening too much lately. oh, i know… the officer was having a bad day – could a citizen use that defense?

do you agree now that anybody merely watching a public arrest or videotaping it (it is not a crime) be arrested for interfering with an investigation? (or whatever charge they choose) the officer chose to walk over to the reporter – he did nothing to interfere with his duties. the female officer did not have any problems with him – why did only the rogue cop? maybe because his illegal actions were being show and this is self preservation by making the reporter the criminal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHkmRJ00TNA

can people standing on their own front lawns be sprayed with mace and tear gas despite no incitement of violence – that is ok with you? if that was your daughter or son at college and this happened to them would you not be upset?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufKv-5t0t4E

i like law enforcement, i respect the good officers – unfortunately there seems to be the trend of less respect to the constitution and the citizen and apparently more “bad” officers – or at least those much different then the last generation it seems.

these actions do not have to happen to me for me to be upset and outraged at their occurrence – i know if people do not stand up for their rights then soon enough we will have no rights to stand up for. history has proven this theorem many times over.

if i was an active law enforcement officer i still would be upset with any of these videos and what it means for the direction of our society… sure i wish the real criminals were put away longer… i’m not against repru

calling me a cop hater is so funny, i must hate my family, my relatives, my friends etc… your no context defense is a joke – also the defense that “we” are against he militarization is again off base focused on the weapon, where it is the application of them that is what i and i assume “we” are against – i think and AR15 is a great tool for law enforcement, love my 870’s and my sigs and others too no desire for the 1950’s revolver (though there are many nice ones out there) – all tools perfectly suited to their tasks

the part as your one sided brush of “cop haters” don’t like is the fact that these weapons do not need to be brought out against little old ladies running stop signs etc… but now every tiny event is worthy of a SWAT standoff it seems… just more reason to enlarge the budgets etc… after all in government it is “use it or lose it” and the more you “use it” whether needed or not as nobody is asking that question – the more you can justify greater expenditure next budget. it’s a political game is all it is… paid for at the expense of the same taxpayer.

When I was a police officer, I tried my best to be a fair and honest cop and this worked for awhile until my superiors (by rank anyway) started giving me grief for not turning in more arrests and traffic citations. I used my discretion on minor offenses and always considered what I would expect if the situation was reversed and I was the one facing the police. However, a large number of my co-workers had the ‘Us vs Them’ mentality and were on a constant power trip. When my department’s administration came after me, fellow officers, several supervisors, lieutenants, a couple of captains, and a major fell over themselves to please the chief by doing whatever they could, including making up falsehoods of me, to get me to quit or be fired. I finally resigned when my supervisor strongly ‘suggested’ I lie about a DUI he had forced me to make an arrest on when there was no probable cause. The arrestee was a lawyer someone in the police administration had trouble with in the past. I had friends in the department who privately supported me, but wouldn’t get involved because they wanted to keep their jobs and not be targeted by the administration. Many of these were older, senior cops who were disgusted by the newer generation of police. My case wasn’t unique in this capital city police department I had worked for in a southern state.

Do not get me wrong I am not defending unnecessary police actions, however, as I stated earlier in this blog there are many instances where police officers are killed because of a lack of vigilance. Colonel Dave Grossman has demonstrated at his seminars that violence in our society has risen percentage wise per population. The violence is greater percentage wise than ever before in modern civilization. I gave you three well known instances where officers were outgunned and/or killed in the line of duty. Miami 1986, North Hollywood 1997, Deputy Kyle Dinkheller 1998. These are the more well known ones. The threat to good law abiding officers is up these days and more are getting killed in the line of duty.
As a police officer you can bash me all you want, but I am going to display and take any precautions necessary to return home to my family at night. I understand that public relations is crucial for successful law enforcement, and I would do my best to uphold that. I will not stick my gun in the face of an elderly lady that poses no threat to public safety. Unfortunately I am forced to be suspicious first and image oriented second. The militarization of the police is partly due to the militarization of criminals. Check out the North Hollywood shoot out in 1997. This shoot out was instrumental in assault rifles being adopted by police departments. Swat teams are overpowering for the safety of the public, as well as the safety of the officers involved. I am not in love with the corruption of organized government. The citizenry should have a right to be armed, but do not expect me as a police officer to approach someone with my pants down. If I deem it necessary to have my hand on my gun when approaching someone then I am going to do it. There is not anyone on this blog who is going to support my family after I am gone. Therefore I do not need anyone on this blog to tell me how I should approach someone out on the streets as an officer of the law, if I deem it necessary for my safety. This is why I have no problem with swat or an officer taking precautions. This is not about a fair fight, this is about everybody getting out alive. Even the criminal if possible. Look at Mexico, the police are out gunned and in fear of their own lives. I will be your friend once it has been established that you are friendly. Otherwise, I must be prepared to give before I get the wrong end of a gun.

“”So, here is some other context. 310million plus, is a number bigger than huge. Those 310 million do not deserve to be treated like criminals by the 850k just because some of those 310 million are criminals.””

And just where is the real evidence of 310 million people being oppressed somehow by law enforcement. Their is a reason why most people aren’t cop haters (which is another thing the average anti-cop bigot refuses to accept, most people are pro-LE, but the cop haters simply dismiss the majority as “sheeple Badge lickers” or some such).

The point is, Cops, like all people, should be judged strictly as human beings, as individuals. One of the mental methods of the “haters” (no matter what the object of hatred is) is to dehumanise who ever is being hated (in this case, people who choose law enforcement as a career), and to then mentally lump them all together into one homogenus group.

“”It goes back to their being a perception problem with modern law enfocement and it has to be addressed and fixed by those within that community. The 310 million do not depend on the 850K for their livelyhoods, existence etc. Those 850K do depend on the 310 million and should remember that.””

A perfect example of what I’m talking about above. Making the entire body (in this case 850k cops) collectivley responsible, it’s easier to justify hate. t is no different that what white racists do when speaking of “the blacks” (as if i’m somehow responsible for action of members of my “community” isntead of simpyl being responsible for MY OWN actions ).

It ignores the fact that the majority of us (as INDIVIDUALS) know exactly who we work for. It ignores the fact that the majority of us follow the constitution and our state’s laws. It tries to make us responsible for the very few among us.

But the cop haters don’t believe it’s a very few cops. Well, here is proof, from cop hater resources no less.

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?page_id=4135

And I quote ” From January 2010 through December 2010 the National Police Misconduct Statistics and Reporting Project recorded 4,861 unique reports of police misconduct that involved 6,613 sworn law enforcement officers and 6,826 alleged victims.”

At no point does the “National Police Misconduct Statistics and Reporting Project” point out that 6613 sworn LEOs is a very small percentage of the 850k cops in America. Telling the actual truth would defeat their purpose, now wouldn’t it…..

Anyways, the point is that bigots of any stripe are impossible to reason with. I offer my own insights not in some vain attempt to change the minds of cop haters (cop CRITICS are ok, they at least can be reasoned with), but to put the truth out there for the majority of people who are actually sane and less prone to unfair and unreasonable biases.

dsd wrote “this is what is happening too much lately.”

That’s just the point, it’s not happening too much. once is too much, but in the grand scheme of things (in this huge country with more than 3 quarters of a million peace officers) it’s simply not that much.

You only hear about the “news worthy” events on TV and the internet, but if thats all you watch, if all you seek out is police misconduct, it seems much more prevelent than it is. The truth is, your anti-cop sentiment (incorrect sentiment so strong it keeps you from pursing a LE career) is based off of incorrect perceptions. i’ve been a Law Enforcement Officer for 15 years, i’ve witness exactly one cop violate someone’s rights, and I didn’t even have to report it because 3 of my squad mates had already done so before I even got off the road.

But I digress lol. the point is that their are problems with ANY human or group of humans. You can name the group, and find some youtube/internet videos of people in that group doing the exact wrong thing. That means nothing to the whole group.

Anyways, Mr. Ayoob has said it all much better than I could, but until people stump lumping people together (by anything, race, religion, political belief, career, sex, whatever), the kind of unthinking igonorance that generated Mas’ response are going to continue.

note that not once have I said LEOs are special or better than anyone else, simply speaking out agains thte prejudice we get subjected too by ignorant fellow citizens.

big tex,

your last two and mark’s last replies were very appreciated – absolutely and mark said it very well, i do want law enforcement to go home safe each day and remain vigilant in their duties. i suppose yes there is some lumping going on that is unwarranted and i also agree there have been some replies in these past couple threads that were way over the top in extremism that i as well do not agree with at all.

i guess with the media it can also be exposure bias too – i’m sure there are hundreds of good deeds and actions by the local officers that do not get any exposure at all – the news media really has become sensationalistic and that does contribute to the exposure of probably too much of just one side of the story a lot of times…

although i don’t seem to recall a huge swat team performing actions like shown against a bunch of idle college kids before (although again i’m sure the 1960’s would have had some big issues if the world was as wired as today and everybody had a cell phone video camera in their hand) and that still really upsets my society sensibilities – maybe that is (or hopefully will be) just one of the very rare exceptions that is blown out of proportion.

i’m going to have to talk with a captain friend of ours and i may discuss a bit more about a career change, though it is as much of the 3/4 pay cut initially that is a deterrent coupled with hopefully an unwarranted fear of infighting from too many “bad” cops – so i may do some due diligence in that area and just see if possibly i could shift gears in my life and maybe add to the good guys side – after all, if there are not good guys trying to make a difference then the often attributed quote by edmund burke stands true.

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”

but then of course the wariness as well on the opposite side (and i admit much of my frustration falls from the higher levels of government which so often unfairly apply the pressures to the local law enforcement)

“People crushed by law, have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws; and those who have much to hope and nothing to lose, will always be dangerous.”

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke

Ignore for a moment all of the “cop bashing” and “can do no wrong”. Police are the hands and face of the government. While we don’t trust the government how can we trust those doing there bidding?

That being said, WE are the heart of the government. We are failing the police as much as they are failing us if not more. They provide a semi-stable environment that allows us to work within the system to facilitate change short of the gun.

If you don’t like the laws fight to change them. Call your senator, congressman, mayor, city council, get partitions signed stating what you want. Scream as so you cannot be ignored. Tell them this is your country, your state, your city and how you want to live. Take back your government.

At least if you are trying and working you can have some moral standing for your view and not just whine.

“You only hear about the “news worthy” events on TV and the internet, but if thats all you watch, if all you seek out is police misconduct, it seems much more prevelent than it is. ”

That is the perception issue I have been talking about. How is that positively countered by the local law enforcement community?

People that think their local police departments, or LEO in general could do a better job of policing their ranks aren’t all cop haters and shouldn’t be generalized as such.

If less than 1% (I’m sure much less) of those 850K LEO are making the rest look bad in the eyes of the public, how do the stalwart and upstanding LEO address that perception problem?

Maybe they could publicize actions that are taken when a complaint is filed? Maybe they could publicize their internal SOPs as to how their officers are supposed to interact with the public?

It might be unfair, it might not be accurate, but it’s that perception that the public works from when it comes time to vote for money for budgets, or time to support community policing, or come to the front with information.

-“That is the perception issue I have been talking about. How is that positively countered by the local law enforcement community?”-

It’s not, and imo doesn’t need to be. ultimately, people have the freedom to think as they will, so be at. All the “Law Enforcement Community” should do is put the information out there and leave it alone. It’s an Authoritarian Tendancy to want everyone to be “on the same page”, I say let people think what they will, I am an individual, not some faceless part of a corporate/government whole.

-“People that think their local police departments, or LEO in general could do a better job of policing their ranks aren’t all cop haters and shouldn’t be generalized as such.”-

Exactly, and part of my generalizing people as cop haters is showing them the sting of lumping folks together. If you want to lump me, as an individual, with the minority of faithless cops, they what’s good for the goose ect ect.

But I said PART of my generalizing, and I meant it. Like any other group of haters, some people are actually cop haters who don’t want to admit it. Just like the people who hold blatantly racist veiws but swear up and down that they aren’t racists (inevitably , they will also claim that “some of my best friends are {insert ethnic group here} lol). Just like some guns rights haters will claim to support the 2nd Amendment while espousiing views that would amount to a back door ban of guns ect ect.

The truth is that some people can’t even be truthful with themselves about their own motives. I don’t care, I just call em like I see em.

-“Maybe they could publicize actions that are taken when a complaint is filed? Maybe they could publicize their internal SOPs as to how their officers are supposed to interact with the public?”

Many do, but people don’t even look for the information.

For example, I am a Texas Peace Officer. The government body that regulates law enforcement standards in thexas is called TCLEOSE . http://www.tcleose.state.tx.us/

Right there on the front page is almost anything you want to know about LE INCLUDING peace officer discipline and license revocations, it’s litterally a google search away from the vast majority of humans. Do people go there and find out about how Texas Police police themselves?

Do they go to a cop’s supervisor, of internal affairs, or a county public integrity unit, or the U.S. Attorney, or the ACLU, or any of the other myriad ways they could complain about cops when they feel wronged? Hell no they don’t, they just sit back and compklain about some magical blue wall.

If people think their is some specific problems with American LE, they should do something about it. My vote would be for “become a cop and show me how it’s done”. But most of them won’t even try to do that either…….

Tom 606,
Sorry to hear that a “good cop”, aka you, got drummed out of the force for not making your quota and following your ethics. Quotas should be illegal and not a factor in whether a cop is doing his job or not. A LEO is on the street to protect and serve and it appears from your post that you followed that rule. Those who fill quotas don’t and end up causing a rift between the public and LEOs.

Just my 2 cents.

Just another “context” article from today. While the writer and the incident take place north of the border in Toronto (a 2 hour drive from Buffalo NY) you can easily imagine the same happening here. The author makes an excellent point that crazy/stupid laws are one factor in driving a wedge between the citizenry and police.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/05/11/lorne-gunter-police-are-stigmatizing-lawful-firearm-owners/

I see so many “When did the police start to militarize”…

The only thing I have to say is when it became a war.

At lot of us armed citizens read about police shootings and how heavily armed some bad guys can be. Heck that’s why some of us have AR-15s set up for defensive use. Look at what happened with the North Hollywood Bank of America shootout.

Springfield Armory has a saying “Bring Enough Gun”.

To those of who think drug users shouldn’t be prosecuted. Have you seen how well some clandestine drug labs are armed? If I mentioned police reports and photos, some might say they aren’t to be trusted. So we’ll try logic. There is quite a bit of money to made selling drugs. Chances are the people running the lab, aren’t outstanding citizens. Furthermore there customers and competitors probably aren’t great people either. So it’s probably safe to bet the people running the drug labs are pretty well armed and given the money involved, they’re probably heavily armed. Considering quite a few murders are related to drug deals gone bad, I think it’s safe to assume drug dealers are armed and more than willing to kill.

While just going after drug dealers, is a good start at attacking the supply. It isn’t a bad idea to go after the users and try to curb the demand as well. For the record, I knew some Officers in California that talked about some of the weapons they found which included RPGs, claymores, and vicious mistreated dogs along with the usual assortment of rifles and handguns.

Slightly off-topic but I’ve seen it mentioned here, I’d be very interested Mas to hear what you think of the Nevada Costco incident where a CCW was shot by police.

While there isn’t a whole lot about it that I could find, I think the CCW holder made at least several mistakes leading up to the incident although I’m curious to know what exactly lead up to it. Supposedly, he stuck around when he was asked to leave (Costco is generally no CCW), he became belligerent or at least difficult which resulted in Costco calling the police. Police arrive probably knowing only “belligerent man with gun”. When told to drop his weapon, he goes for it in a manner causing police to fire.

My biggest question is what exactly happened and what can CCW holders learn from it? Maybe it was unknown to the police he was a CCW holder and he should have first announced he was a CCW holder and had proper identification (I assume when police made contact with him he probably became more agitated…)? When told to drop/surrender a holstered firearm, what would be the best way for a CCW holder to comply, tell the Officers where it is located and ask if they would rather do it (in a calm polite tone of course)?

Thanks in advance,
-Tim

Story from today’s Buffalo News. I’m not a cop, not related to a cop, and could relate stories of one or two “badge heavy” cops.
Anyway, I post this story to remind everyone that 99% of LEOs are out there to serve and protect. My thanks to those men and women.
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/communities/orchard-park/article419430.ece

As an outsider (non US citizen) who is now living in my 3rd country (South Africa, Germany, USA) I think I have a little perspective on the matter of police aggression.

Frankly, police in the other 2 countries I have lived in would never get away with some of the behaviors considered “normal” here. Even when I was in the military, the doctrine was about the use of “measured” force. In fact, the talk was typically about “Minimum Force” necessary for the situation. Any more than that has a high risk of needlessly escalating the situation, as well as (permanently) turning witnesses to the event into enemies.

I can remember such discussions prior to heading out on patrol during the terrible riots which took place in 1986. My company patrolled townships with populations in the hundreds of thousands and our convoy had perhaps 40 men. We were threatened, taunted, provoked and all but outright attacked, but we did not so much as point our automatic weapons at the population. Here in the US it does not take much to have a weapon pointed at you during a traffic stop or when open carrying. By comparison, even in a situation where police may be massively outnumbered by aggressive rioters, if weapons were drawn, they were not pointed until immediately before shooting was determined necessary.

There were years when several thousand policemen were killed annually in the line of duty. The risk associated with the job did not permit reckless “assault” on innocents by treating every situation the same and advancing with weapons drawn and sighted on the apprehended. As a result, a large cross section of the community had strong bonds with the police and in many instances came to their aid when situations were dire.

If the status quo continues and is not ratcheted back in the USA, there is a very high risk of police officers being isolated in times of extreme crisis, due to locals fearing a repeat of what happened in New Orleans with the constitution basically being suspended.

I doubt that the number of officers who die in gunfights on an annual basis justifies the degree of paranoia needed to justify current modus operandi. More than likely, the number who die in automobile accidents is several time higher.

I believe that LEO’s have an important job to do, a thankless one at the best of times, but I don’t think that agression against the public is justified.

Doing some research, it looks like the likelihood of a LEO dying on duty from all causes is just less that double the likelihood that one would die from being struck by lightening.

references:
http://www.nleomf.com/facts/officer-fatalities-data/

http://www.infoplease.com/science/weather/lightning-deaths.html
data for 10 years, I divided number by 10 to get annual rate.

Take a look at this. Is it any wonder that US “Scurrying cockroaches “ don’t trust the police….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0

I am sure the odds of an officer getting killed (struck by lightning) is low in many instances. Would you like to be the officer who is struck by that lightning. Would you like to say the odds were low to my wife and children at my funeral? If you were the officer killed, would you like me to say that to your family? I do not care what the odds are, I do not want to be that one unfortunate one. This does not mean I run around the streets being trigger happy and ultra paranoid. What it does mean is that I will take every precaution I deem necessary to avoid the death of anybody involved in the situation at hand. I will tell you all this though, if it is deemed necessary for me to be ultra paranoid or lethally aggressive, then you must die for your cause before me. I will return off duty to my family at night or die trying. I will not take any situation lightly until it is proven to be justified doing so. Like I said on the earlier blog, is there anyone here who is going to support my family when I am killed on duty? I doubt it. Therefore I will not have anyone tell me how I am to approach any given situation on the street that may or may not become lethal. The key is for everyone to get out alive. If that cannot happen then I better make sure it is me, and not the criminal that I underestimated for the sake of public relations. Finally, I would like to reiterate the fact that public relations between police and the public is important for proper law enforcement. That importance however is not greater than me living to see another day no matter what the odds of that never happening or not is.

Mark. so why is it then that a civilian would be charged with multiple felonies for taking the same actions when on his own property and dealing with trespassers with unknown intent ? I don’t see anyone advocating for more officer deaths, but as much as LEO’s should not be at risk, neither should millions of civilians who find themselves threatened with deadly force by nervous officers at a whim. We would all like to go home to our families too, in case you missed that.

The facts speak that policing doesn’t even make it into the top 10 dangerous jobs in the US. 52000 deliberate gun related deaths per year in the US vs 33 LEO deaths by gunfire. Somehow it seems that the odds are stacked against civilians by a factor over 1000 of being a victim of gun crime, yet LEO’s should be granted immunity against numerous charges which would be brought against civilians ??

There is something wrong with that balance of power. Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander. What I’m saying is that when LEO’s enjoy global freedom from prosecution for these kinds of assault, they will not think twice about having you stare down the barrel of their guns. The rest of the population would find themselves in jail in a heartbeat.

phew.. these stories sure get me on edge… just happened on may 5, 2011

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html

i know the swat guys are just doing their duties – but geez there has to be some change in how these things are done…

too many swat standoffs and the like lately…

Pmec:

My former department does not have a “quota” for traffic citations. However, if an officer does not bring in the number of tickets his/her supervisor “suggests” or considers appropriate, that cop won’t receive a favorable evaluation and could forget about advancing up the blue ladder if they’re lucky, or worse, incur the wrath of the administration who sees this as a challenge to their authority. Laser/radar speed tickets are a joke. If desired, just check out the equipment, fill in the log book, then park by the road and make up any reasonable excessive speed you want for any vehicle. Most motorists will pay the fine, and for those few who take it to court, who do you think the judge will believe, the police officer or the alledged “speeder”? All cops know how to legally get around the law and have the authority and public credibility to get away with it. The good ones do not abuse this power. They work for and take care of the citizens who pay their salaries, not brown nose their politically motivated supervisors/administrators to score brownie points.

I have no desire to infringe on any ones rights myself. I believe a civilian has the right to self defense. What must be understood is that a civilian is not obligated to intervene directly when a law is broken or a crime committed. True he should report the incident to the police if possible and intervene if he can legally do so, but he is not held responsible to directly intervene even if he can lawfully do so. For example, if there is a robbery in progress and you have a conceal carry weapon, you as a civilian are not obligated to pull your weapon and intervene even if someone was getting shot. You could or possibly should intervene on the grounds of protecting innocent life, but what if you do not? You are not obligated, you can skirt that responsibility. The police officer cannot skirt that responsibility. My point is that with greater responsibility comes greater authority to fulfill that responsibility. If a police officer abuses that responsibility or over steps it then he or she is in the wrong. Proper law enforcement should not do this , but there are those who do. The system may protect them unless there is obvious proof. On the other hand I have seen many officers who have been prosecuted and/ or lose their lively hood as a result of infringements. This is not to count the numerous law suits that have successfully been brought forth. What must be understood here is that most civilians do not know their legal rights. Neither do most civilian understand their legal limitations. A civilian has the right to lethal self defense when severe bodily harm or death is enacted against them. There must be an equal and appropriate show of force in a civilian self defense situation. For a police officer it is what ever force is necessary to end the incident, but it must be done within the frame work of an escalating implementation of that force. When a police officer arrives on the scene he or she has no idea who the perpetrator may be. If you are holding a gun on someone who has threatened you on your property when the officer arrives you may be the assailant for all they know. Finally, some states do allow for the protection of property by lethal force , but many do not and you better be aware of your state laws. The civilian has the right to avoid and should avoid any lethal force encounters even on their own property. Retreat and call the police. If someone has you cornered or unable to safely escape for your life then you may use lethal force for your own protection outside your house whether on your property or not. This person must have the means, intent, and opportunity to harm or kill you before you can legally use such force though. Inside your house may be a different story, especially if your state has a castle defense law on the books and there was a break in. The intent, opportunity, and means must still be there though. If they break in your house while you are home it may be easier for you to demonstrate this in a court of law however.

on May 6th Brogan says: posted a rebuttle to your blog mas. I found it nieve and juvenile. I had a young man with the same attitude go on a ride along with me. Fun stuff and a very useful training tool for a civilian that thougt he knew everything. In the four or five call that I had him with me I asked him this>.. What would you do. I even tried some of his requests.”within reason” and low and behold they didn’t work. Kind of changed his mind by the end of the night. keep up the good work

I have the greatest respect for those who protect and serve. Deep thanks go out to you all.
Hall

phew… just more misconceptions that need to be cleared up i guess…

what are the odds that one “bad” cop is then backed up and assisted by how many other “bad” cops who all cover each other and are ignorant of the law?

this is the stuff that concerns me – being a law abiding citizen completely within the laws and entering a twilight zone situation like this.

oh i know, it is only this “on”e story – probably all twisted and edited and one sided. is it?

if a citizen performed these same actions what would be the legal ramifications? felony? mandatory prison time? are these cops not illegally detaining this man among other things?

what numerous charges would be made against a citizen for every action taken by these “in the wrong” cops? then these same charges should be made against these same officers and they should suffer the same penalty as any citizen would- THAT would make all the “bad cops” or “cops having a bad day” sit up and take notice and maybe even help get rid of the bad ones so the good cops do not get lumped into this pool of actions.

i would think the “good” law abiding officers would support these same legal ramifications against their own – after all the law is the law right?. it cleans their house faster for them of the cops giving them a bad name and benefits the citizens and the good officers alike right?

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun

just no excuse for it. none. sheesh, this gets me very wound up seeing this yet again…

then the citizen after being proven right and released – the “system” comes after you – after all it is in their only interest to keep the sheep under control.

what recourse does this citizen have? how much money will it cost him to fight this? who will take care of HIS family and children if the has them if the cops did kill him or he ends up in prison for no breaking any law? these concerns are too often being used by the officers – but what about for citizens?

will mas go and defend this citizen from this attack and harassment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA

i looked up the actual video recordings – three parts.

so are these one sided audio recordings, mas?

note the police make multiple calls to try to find out what law he has broken…

if a citizen called an officer “yo, junior” who has just escalated the confrontation? the officer could have treated the citizen no different then they expect a citizen to be respectful to them.

from the post on youtube – UPDATE: An arrest warrant was issued today for Mark. 5 officers showed up at his place of work to arrest him.

if this guy loses his job, suffers due to public perception over being arrested etc – is he not being further assaulted or impacted by these overly aggressive actions? – then what? “who will take care of his kids or his wife?” or does that only apply to officers concerns?

until the good officers help clean out the officers like this – then there will continue to be distrust between civilians and the police. this is how easy it is to have your life ruined by an officer who does not even know the laws they enforce. isn’t the states view that “ignorance of the law is no excuse”?

i feel bad for both the civilian and the honest officers who get treated or viewed badly because of the actions of the cops like this. the only solution is for both to work to get rid of the bad officers.

http://m.philly.com/phillycom/db_/contentdetail.htm;jsessionid=E19932C05D3DEA8C9997279DC1434DED?contentguid=v8rDTw2r&full=true

while i did wonder why he had a digital recorder on and running – as it did seem out of place to me as well – it seems it is because he had been accosted by police officers before while being fully in line with the laws.

so i guess the digital recorder was yet another form of citizen protection alongside the firearm.

dsd, there are once again two sides to the issue. Notice that the officer who took the guy at gunpoint has not been heard from yet. Both sides are seen debated here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1343204 , and in several other discussions at Glock Talk.

The audio makes it pretty clear how both sides went in that Philly case. The fact that the DA has charged the man after the audio hit the internet seems proof of that Mas.

Here is another one for you,

Police shoot a dog just sitting on stoop as they go to double check a house is empty:
http://www.theagitator.com/2011/05/20/puppycide-22/

Also, thanks for letting the discussion go forward despite the heated opinions on both sides. Few are willing to do that anymore.

“For those who don’t like the drug laws: work to change them, don’t focus your anger on the cops whose job is to enforce them. ”

I got a better idea for you Mas – for those of you who like the drug laws – why don’t you amend the state and federal constitutions so that prohibition isn’t an unconstitutional criminal conspiracy against our rights?

I am the son of an FBI Special Agent and the nephew and first cousin of 3 other cops. I am NOT a Cop basher, but I have said ever since Police Started kicking in doors while wearing masks, that ANYONE coming into my house with a mask on is a bad guy and I will blow them away, Show me your face and credentials and I will cooperate completely. You only need a mask if you are doing something you need to be ashamed of.

If this incident is being reported in any way near factually some Cops need prison time. http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may252011/arizona-marine-tk.php . Incidents like this expose all LEO’s to contempt and leads the general public to view them suspiciously.

I think you still have your blinders on on this one, Mas.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/25/oath-keepers-muster-_-tucson-info/

This sort of totalitarian knock in the night HAS TO STOP.

In my experience people who have a distain for law enforcement are criminals. I don’t break any laws, and guess what, I don’t have any problem with law enforcement. Go fugure?

Amen Brother! Again, I would like for those who are being so hard on cops in general, to look at people in their own profession. If they look close enough, they will find some real hypocrites and bad apples. I don’t care what line of work they do. That’s the way it is in law enforcement. I believe many in our society have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to cops. Many of whom I must say are clearly on the other side of the law. Naturally they don’t like cops because when cops do their job, these thugs get busted. That’s how our communities are kept safe. I know a lot of cops and can truly say none of them fall into the category these critics are trying to generalize them into. I still believe that becoming a cop is a noble thing and a great work. Our communities need more dedicated men and women who put their life on the line to keep us safe.

http://www.how-to-become-a-cop.com/becoming-a-cop.html