My last blog entry (below this one) touched on the fact that master instructors at an international police conference predicted “Mumbai in America,” and the important part played by good (and sometimes armed) citizens in mass murder situations was mentioned. For some reason, it drew “we don’t trust the cops” sentiments from roughly half of those who posted comments. Twenty-some comments into it, I remarked, “My goodness, the cop-haters are out in force tonight.” That seems to have had the same effect as kerosene on a campfire. Many (including, oddly enough, some who’ve never posted here before) have their panties in a wad because I called some of the critics “cop-haters.”
Well, unless English is not your first language, don’t tell me it isn’t hate-speak when people write that cops “…have proven themselves to be an occupying army.” Or, “I am not proud of the police officers we have today.” Or, “…the stazi, sorry I mean cops.”
First, thanks to those who’ve been voices of reason on the blog commentary here. I hope they return. And, as for the rest:
No one was happier than the cops when the drunk, off-duty Chicago officer who brutally beat up a female bartender was convicted, and no one more incensed when he only got probation. I don’t know any cop who was saddened when Police Superintendent Eddie Compass resigned under a cloud a few weeks after his infamous statement that he would allow only police to have guns during the Hurricane Katrina debacle.
It’s generally accepted that there are 800,000 cops in this country. In any community that size, some will go bad. That’s why there are police departments, and that’s why police departments have internal affairs bureaus. No one deplores the tiny minority of bad cops more than the vast majority of good ones.
But, read some of the commentary that followed that last blog! Because the politician appointed to head Homeland Security hints that gun owners might be suspect, you should hate the police officer who patrols your neighborhood? Because there’s an anti-cop website that treats every lawsuit allegation, including the most bogus, as if it was proof positive a crime has been committed, no cop should be trusted? Because some people are too stupid to see what’s happening on a YouTube video, they assume it’s police brutality because whoever posted the video said it was?
Not long ago, the Brady Campaign came up with a relative handful of cases where people with carry permits did bad things with their guns, and argued that none of you should be allowed to carry guns because you’d do the same. We both know that’s ridiculous. So, what possesses otherwise thinking, logical people to apply that same false standard to police, and assume that because a few have done bad things (and some have been falsely accused of doing bad things), no cop can be trusted? The hypocrisy is revoltingly blatant.
Critical comments are welcome here, people, but let’s bring critical thinking to our criticism.
Leave the broad brush of stereotyping in the hands of the ignorant, where it fits so naturally.
I love guys like you Wolvie. They remind me of how ignorant I once was. Please don’t stop voicing your opinions, helps me know to avoid you.
Also, you forgot to call him a “punk who smokes weed in his mom’s basement”.
Oh, and I’d be a keyboard commando nerd who did get beat up a couple of times in school. If you haven’t been to a public school (even in semi rural Oregon) in the last 15-20 years you might not know what the rules are. Defend yourself? You’re just as guilty as the guy who started the fight and be ready to be suspended or expelled. I was lucky that back in the mid 90s I didn’t get suspended. Odd how the 3 times guys picked on me they didn’t bother me after I stood up to them. Can’t do that with corrupt cops though, no one believes you. So continue to live in your sheltered world like I do in mine but be ready cause if it gets bad, the police likely won’t be your friends if they’re still around.
Tim, I think we ALL have a guilty conscience of some sort (unless your conscience has been completely seared from flaunting what your conscience knows is right…. and that state of being is a VERY frightening prospect indeed).
For instance, about a year and a half ago I was pulled over not more than a block from my apartment. I WAS nervous b/c I’d forgotten to put the latest proof of insurance in my glovebox (as in, I was carrying insurance, but the copy I had with me had already expired, though I was still carrying a policy). Turned out that a combination of automatic running lights and the well lit area of the street made me NOT realize I’d forgotten to turn my lights on and the cop pulled me over thinking I had a busted tail light. At night, that was absolutely the right thing for him to do. I could’ve caused an accident if someone hadn’t seen me when they needed to.
Was I nervous? You bet! I didn’t want a ticket on my record less than 2 years after my last accident (and thus not yet be eligible to go to defensive driving school instead of paying a fine and getting points on the license). So yeah, I was nervous. He let me go, though, when we both realized my error. He was polite, professional, and gave me a stern but by no means overly harsh admonishment to be a bit more careful.
I’m thankful for that.
I’m also thankful for the AZ DPS patroling the freeways. Today, just driving home I saw a single officer on patrol. At first he was tailing an SUV towing with a strap a car. I guess the car had gotten disabled. He was escorting them with his lights on to the nearest off ramp. He then continued on and hit his lights again upon seeing what I saw was an abandoned van over off the shoulder. Just a normal officer doing his duty during a time of day when the chief concern on most people’s mind who are on the freeway is to get home and avoid annoying delays. Meaning, he could catch some crap from annoyed motorists who he was just trying to keep safe from their own sense of “end of day tunnel vision.”
I try and give those men my respect even if I never meet them but only pass them (or they pass me) on the road. We drivers are trying to avoid inconveniences like hitting every red light (so we’ll sometimes speed up to get through an intersection before the red, even if it means our front tires crossing into the intersection AS the light turns red, etc., etc.). These cops are trying to keep us from causing inconveniences like multiple car accidents, t-boning another motorist, or going too fast for us to react to changing situations properly. That’s among other things they’re doing. And when they’re at their busiest, we’re at our most intolerant for “disruptions.” Not exactly a great formula there for friendly interaction.
Unless an individual officer is just simply acting like a jerk who likes to be in control 100% or abusing his authority, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. At least I’ll try to. I’m the least of the guy’s problems and I want to act like it by not getting all pissed off and bothered by him just doing his job. If I can make his day just a little easier by being halfway decent to him even if he’s being a bit on the overly gruff side, then I’ll be glad to do it. We both like our lives uncomplicated.
Mr. Ayoob. Police officers routinely approach citizens with their hand on their service weapon these days. They do this for routine traffic stops, when questioning potential witnesses and so on.
This is just one reason why honest citizens fear and hate the police.
If I approached you with my hand on a weapon would you love me for doing so?
Please “JS”, by all means, avoid me. It makes my day when one less malcontent crosses my path.
Thank you for your obviously stellar information and education on what public schools are like. I mean, it’s obvious that someone in “semi rural Oregon” would have so much more insight and experience than someone from that backwater town of Brooklyn, NY. Yeah, that’s where I’m from.
And I work with High School students on my own time…
And my wife is a teacher…
And it all occurs in Public Schools.
But go ahead, continue to enlighten me with your awesome experience. I mean, a person who works with kids in public schools who is married to a teacher and who was born and raised in Brooklyn and attended only public schools from K to 12 is obviously “sheltered” and needs to be schooled from someone from “semi rural Oregon”.
(Insert pause to allow laughter to die down…)
As for dealing with the police…I have extensive experience…but I am not one of them. I’m an instructor in both firearms and motorcycles and I have done accident scene reconstructions. So I’ve trained and trained with the police (NYPD, Suffolk County, Nassau County, NY State Troopers and more small sheriff departments than I can easily name). I’ve hosted and chaired safety conferences with the police. I worked with their trainers. I’ve trained some of their trainers. I’m a member of many DOT sponsored safety councils. So, again, tell me how I’m the one who is sheltered.
Corrupt cops aren’t your problem…your own lack of self esteem and hatred for authority is the problem. As such, there is nothing that any cop can do that could ever help you and your hate will continue as a side effect of your own self loathing.
Here endeth the lesson. Now feel free to ignore me as you stated you would.
As for the other cast of characters, we have cop haters and self-admitted convicted criminals who, miraculously, just appeared on a site written by a police officer that covers law enforcement and firearms. Hmmm, I smell a rat. By my best guess, one of these fine, upstanding citizens probably stumbled across the site and wrote about it in a blog as a call to arms for all of his equally upstanding and law abiding readers to come over and spam the comments in an effort to educate all the rest of us sheltered, ignorant readers.
To John, who feels that reserve officer programs promote understanding between cops and those they serve: I agree. The “civilian police academies” around the country have done an excellent job of this, too, in my opinion.
best,
Mas
So after 200 some posts, I think the point on both sides of this argument has been made. Got it. Can we move past this now? Mas ain’t there any thing else going on in the gun world? PLEASE post on some other topic soon.
irony this is a story today – here’s one for you to cheer wolvie
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w210.html
“Birk claimed that he had been “threatened” by Williams, a 50-year-old alcoholic woodcarver who was carrying two closed knives at the time of the incident. The autopsy, however, documented that Williams wasn’t facing Birk when he was shot: The officer approached him from behind and to the right, and Williams was shot in the right side of his body from an estimated distance of about ten feet. A fifth shot that missed the target was never accounted for.
No reasonable person would have considered Williams a threat to Birk; in fact, since the victim was partially deaf, it’s likely he never clearly heard Birk’s demand that he drop his carving knife, and died before understanding what was going on. The entire lethal encounter lasted less than eight seconds.”
“It’s generally accepted that there are 800,000 cops in this country. In any community that size, some will go bad. That’s why there are police departments, and that’s why police departments have internal affairs bureaus. No one deplores the tiny minority of bad cops more than the vast majority of good ones.”
It’s that the number of incidents has gone WAY up in recent years – or at least the number of press-covered ones has. Here in North Carolina, the long-sterling Highway Patrol has had far more scandals in the past three years than in the entire 30 years before.
That has been every imaginable (and unimaginable) kind of misconduct by troopers, many resulting in dismissals – and some in felony convictions of troopers. Included in the latter was a highly-publicized case in the past year in which a trooper stopped a young female college student at night – not knowing she was the granddaughter of a former congressman – drove her somewhere in his patrol car, and (unsuccessfully) propositioned her.
Stuff like that does nothing to improve any agency’s overall image.
Mas,
I’d caution everyone to not disparage the people of BHM (readers or producers). These people are passionate, yes, but not ill-willed. In the end, liberty thru self-sufficiency unites most here.
I’d second the suggestion that you should watch this LEO publicly explain the process of prosecution : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc (lying is to be expected)
I’d also suggest reading the following article on Peace Officers vs LEO’s: http://www.markmccoy.com/police.htm
It boils down to acting “under color of law”. I respect you and Will Grigg. You should discuss if “officer safety” is priority one. Would be a great debate, no?
more irony in the news
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42928442#42928442
(the officer was obviously afraid for his life)
mas, do you have any critical thinking to add to this? is she a cop hater who got what she deserved?
until all those “good” officers start disowning and publicly speaking out against this sort of behavior – it will only keep getting worse.
Wolvie Says:
May 5th, 2011 at 1:24 am
I’m sorry you got beat up in school and are generally bullied every day and that this caused you to hate authority figures.
Funny that you should mention that. We had a student who was on the Police Explorers back in 76-77. And the word was, that he was a “Golden Glove Boxer.” Are you getting where I am going yet? Well, he was on the PE program, but I doubt he was a GGB. Anyhow, me and Carl went to the boys room between classes. I’m doing the urinal thing and Carl is sitting on the toilet when tough guy GGB comes in and walks the stalls to Carl. And he starts picking on him. Now think about that Wolvie. I tell the GGB to leave Carl alone and he tells me to shut up and goes back to Carl harassing him. I finish my business and again tell GGB to leave my friend alone. GGB turns on me and makes bee line straight for me. I cold cocked him right between the eyes and knocked him on floor.
Who got suspended for 3 days and who do you think had to pay for the punks glasses? So Wolvie (how cute) … and this is a true story whether you want to believe it or not … it hardly seems that I was bullied.
Now Wolvie, I know there are “good” cops out there. The problem is, most of them are to ingrained with the “us vs them” attitude, they will not, in most cases, when they see a heavy hand, say anything or intervene because they do not want to cross that line that has been imposed on them by the institution.
And … Wolvie … check yer gyrating.
As far as “authority figures” … Wolvie … no man has authority over me. I live by a moral code that precludes anyone having any kind of authority over me. I realize that you probably won’t understand that Wolvie, because you are a slave to men who have assumed authority over you.
I have never picked another mans pocket, nor have I broke another mans leg who didn’t deserve it.
Cops have their place. And sometimes there is a need to get rough. Somehow, to many cops have lost their compass.
Remember, cops represent an institution. When the apple is full of worms… throw it out, lest it taint the barrel.
Yes, the self-admitted liar and convicted criminal spins yet another tale.
Sorry Mas, but at the moment statistics tell me I’m more likely to be killed by a trigger-happy cop than I am by a terrorist.
1. Police officers are largely evaluated based upon how many arrests they make. Period.
2. They don’t get a lot of credit for writing tickets for traffic violations. So, if they can come up with a reason, or antagonize the average person enough to justify searching the car, they have the chance to find something and make an arrest.
3. Cops stink, but it’s largely because of the system they are in.
Ask any cop if the first 2 aren’t true.
Massad Ayoob – You are a complete idiot and should be restrained from posting your opinion.
In the closed thread, someone posted this, which pretty well sums up my thoughts, too:
“A vindictive cop can quite literally ruin your life over nothing, if he has a mind to… There are not a majority of cops who would do such a thing, but… it is not possible to tell who the bad cops are before they ruin your life. As a result many good honest people have a legitimate fear of cops. Statistically bad cops are in the minority but statistics are cold comfort when you find yourself on the receiving end.”
I have a friend who is an officer on my city’s PD,
work with several retired officers,
am very good friends with a retired deputy,
and I’ve had 2 very bad nonconsensual encounters with officers.
(Both resulted in 1983 suits, and no, I did nothing the least bit wrong to merit their attention, let alone what they did to me.)
I’m still willing to believe that most officers, like most people, are basically decent. But I am now on guard when approached by officers in a non-social setting. I will be polite, but I no longer assume that they are there to help (unless I’ve called them) or that they will respect my rights.
I wish things would change, so I could go back to believing that all cops are one step below sainthood, and half Superman to boot.
Excellent article! How true it is. A vast majority of cops are a great asset to our society. Naturally there are a handful that have hurt the profession, just like in any other profession. I am a Christian, but there are some TV evangelists and others in a religious capacity that have given Christianity a bad name too. I would like cop critics to name one profession that doesn’t have rotten eggs in the ranks. It doesn’t exist.
I encourage good men and women to pursue a career in law enforcement. There is a code of ethics that holds police officers to a high standard. Thank God for the good cops we have. For those wanting to learn how to become a cop or more about that code of ethics, check our this link: http://www.how-to-become-a-cop.com/police-officer-code-of-ethics.html
Definition of a Statistician: A guy who believes figures don’t lie, but admits than under analysis a lot of them won’t stand up either.
To command is always to serve, nothing more and zilch less.
We flourish in enterprises which demand the positive qualities we possess, but we excel in those that can also make use of our defects.
I realize this is WAY late in being posted (sorry, I had forgotten all about these postings and I’m trying to get caught up)….
I think that by far the #1 thing law enforcement officers can do to restore their image with the public is to completely eliminate, in a very visible way, the “professional courtesy” shown to fellow officers. Do things like making it illegal for an LEO to show his ID when pulled over for a traffic violation, have state troopers that are tasked with making a point of pulling over and ticketing out-of-jurisdiction officers that are speeding just because they know they can get away with it, publish statistics on how many tickets (to include actual fines paid, not just tickets issued) that the police officres got compared to the general population. That sort of thing. Fix the situation and make it obvious to the public that it has been fixed.
I used to have an 80 mile commute each morning and evening and for the nearly two years that I drove that I saw at least 1 (and as many as six or seven) police officers that were well outside their county/city go flying by me on the freeway. Yes, even the ones with an “Integrity” bumper sticker on the back of the car as the city police department tries to promote a different character trait each month. I didn’t just see at least one each day- it was at least one in each direction. I’d say the average was probably closer to three in each direction each and every single day. There was literally not one trip- morning and evening- that didn’t have at least one officer without a legitimate reason for speeding that was speeding anyway. We’re talking about going typically 10+ mph over the speed limit.
How many off duty officers were also zooming on by without any real fear of getting ticketed for it? Not to mention legislators (that make the traffic laws) and judges (that enact the penalties for violators) and even fire fighters that are carrying “get out of tickets free” cards.
Joe Citizen sees the clear hypocrisy in an LEO blatantly getting away with the same act for which he would get tagged, perhaps by the very same officer, and it causes a loss of respect and a diminishment of compassion.
Sure, virtually all cops are happy to see a fellow cop get punished for being a wife beater, but do they ever even report a fellow officer for having illegal fireworks that they confiscated from some kid? What about how they handle finding an officer driving with an open container? Do they just let him pour it out or throw it away or do they actually write them up or arrest them?
I’m not looking to hold our men and women in law enforcement to a higher standard than the general public (although maybe we should), but I also don’t think they should get ANY preferential treatment.
I’ll not speak about your competence, the write-up basically disgusting