CAMPUS CARRY

These politicians all seem to think that 19 year old Freshman will be packin’ heat!
They all fail to realize that only 21 year old ADULTS, Juniors & Seniors, will be carrying.
The key word here being Adults, 21 years of age. Responsible Adults not kids.
What are they going to do next, raise the age of adulthood to 24, 25, why not make it 30 just to be safe???

Guns were prohibited in my college, but I carried CCW all the time. There was constant thief and violence in the parking areas, but never any shootings (thankfully).
“Gun Free” zones are another name for “shoot here, no one will stop you”.

I am currently a college student. I carry each and every day (I always wear a shirt, sweater or jacket to cover my IWB Galco holster).

My school has a no weapons policy but does not specifically mention CWP holders. Our security guards do not carry anything but pepper spray. The nearest Police department is around 5 miles away. Should anything happen, help is a long ways off.

I figure that if I am ever discovered, the worse they could do is ban me from campus. However, with all of the crazies out there, possible expulsion is a risk I am willing to take.

On a similar note, I know at least 3 people who have permits to carry and do so when they are on campus.

IMO Although the same age as military soldiers, college students do lots of very stupid things, some acts deliberately malicious and hateful without concern for the overall consequences of their actions…. and they are not always intoxicated. Unless they take training and are licensed CCW, I think that they should NOT be carrying for those very reasons. During my age 30s worked at the state university for a decade and I promise you that very few students are mentally competent to carry a gun. JMO

adding to previous post: I have also witnessed at least one person in every CCW class (that I have attended)that believes that they should wave a gun around to threaten criminals and/or brag about their weapon to everyone. Unfortunately, “watching movies” and being an idiot does NOT prevent them from getting their CCW. Scares the xxx out of me.

My experience was that as a CCW holder, I would have preferred to carry on campus. Students have access to firearms anyway and may or may not be carrying concealed. We’d never know and probably don’t

I’m a grad student at a public university in Texas and a concealed handgun license holder. I absolutely think if someone (student or otherwise) has already been entrusted with the authority to lawfully carry a handgun for self defense in malls, grocery stores, restaurants, walking down the street, etc., they should be able to carry on public college/university property. Among the reported criminal activities on my campus in the past year there have been several armed robberies and even an armed kidnapping, so I certainly think I’m safer having (and exercising) the option to carry at school as I do most other places.

Our laws in Texas could certainly use some modification. Right now concealed handgun license holders are prohibited from carrying on college/university premises, which does not include public roads or parking lots. As a student though, possession of any firearm on university grounds is prohibited. So (if I understand correctly), while its perfectly legal for me to drive through my university carrying a concealed handgun, if I were pulled over I could face expulsion. Not a risk I’m willing to take, so I’m hoping legal campus carry will make it through this legislative session.

Aix makes a good point. There are 15 year olds I trust completely with a firearm, there are 25 year olds I wouldn’t trust with a K-Bar. That’s the problem with that age range. However when it comes to public policy this illustrates the problem, how to come up with a consistent single policy (law) that covers a population with a wide range of capablities. Our society has judged 21 as the age of full adulthood. There are lots of people younger than that who are responsible adults. There are also lots of people older than that who are irresponsible idiots. We all know this, it’s common knowledge.

Given that realization, if a citizen is following the law (and that usually means having a CCW permit) they should be allowed to carry no matter where they are. Liberty doesn’t supply a perfect society. It simply provides the best society possible.

I have noted too, that the mere act of making the decision to carry usually influences a person to “grow up”.

Mas,

I wish most college kids were responsible enough to carry. Unfortunately, the alcohol and drug abuse on campus today is even worse when we were there. I bring my college freshman to the range and am glad he has some basic skills but he is not ready to carry. He attends a small Catholic school in NH but the administration turns its back on the excessive drinking.

This is a tough one. I am a big second amendment guy but have some big concerns about college life as it exists today. Guns and booze do not mix. The commuter student should be OK but I think guns in the dorms is a bad idea. That being said, I do not think the federal, state or local government should restrict a student from carrying a weapon. I think it should be up to the individual college (private property owner).

(Side rant: I think our educational system is broken. I think commuter schools make more sense. Partying is the biggest priority on most campuses.)

Thanks for all you do. You are in my prayers.

As a college graduate, I am 100% for campus carry.

Yes there are stupid people in colleges, but guess what? There are stupid people in all walks of life and yes some people who own guns probably shouldn’t have them. On that same note there are far more people on the road driving who shouldn’t be driving.

The people who follow the rules are law abiding citizens. Irresponsible people may or may not follow the rules. Criminals, by definition, don’t. So really campus carry will only affect the law abiding citizen.

And has people have already mentioned, age is irrelevant. Some of my friends who are in their 20s are far better with firearms and safety than a lot of adults in their 50s.

In California, my college town was an effective no carry. Self-defense was not a valid reason for obtaining a CCW. The only reason valid reason that MIGHT be accepted for people without connections was if you were a previous victim of violent crime. Yes, you had to have been robbed or mugged first before they would even consider issuing you a CCW.

Honestly, I’m not even sure if pocket knives were okay on campus. In a neighboring town any knife regardless of size was considered a deadly weapon and a big no-no. Needless to say, I carried a folder, OC spray, and a good-sized tactical light.

Gun-Free Zones = Criminal Safe Zones

My college days included exposure to a large number of drunken fools attending this “selective” college. My own take is that the frequency of college shootings is miniscule compared to the widespread use of alcohol on campuses. Unless you carefully vetted those 21 y.o.’s for CCW, you would likely see an increase in homicides, suicides, and ADs on campus. Would I feel safer if I had been carrying then? Maybe. With YOUR carrying …maybe not!

JMHO.

REALLY, REALLY, REALLY REALLY TIRED of supposed gun owners claiming what if theoretical ka ka of unsubstantiated fears are sufficient justification for rescinding or denying a person rights.

The U.S. Dept of Education, the FBI and the U.S. Secret Service recently released an extensive research report (“Campus Attacks – Targeted Violence Affecting Institutions of Higher Learning”) that indicated the incidents of college campus violence had drastically increased in the past 20 years, published 2010.

US Census 2008 18.4 mil students 42% age 21 or over, 4,300 schools.

US Census 2008 186 mil 21 or older, 8 mil cpl licensees = 4.3%

Do the numbers, 1.8% of the people around you in class may have a carry permit.

JAMA medical malpractice report 2001 700k doctors kill between 44k to 98k per year or an avg. of .065 to .14 deaths per doctor.

VPC 2009 report claiming 137 deaths by the 8 mil cpl licensee’s over a 3 year time frame or deaths .00000562 per licensee. Everyone knows if the rabidly anti VPC could only come up with 137, and you know they will claim more incidents than really occur as inherent liars always fluff their numbers in their favor.

Yeah we see how .065 to .14 / .00000562 = 12,000 to 25,000 times more likely a doctor is to kill you than a person carrying concealed.

But hey, funny how government data per Florida & Texas CCW databases show the risk is even less.

Guess these successful defensive gun uses should have happened then eh….

Shoneys, Alliston AL 1991
Pearl HIgh School Peral Mississippi 1997
Appalachian Law School 2002
New Life Church Colorado Springs 2007
College Station Georgia May 4th 2009

Funny how those incidents have a 10 times lower body count than other gun free zones where no one stepped up and defended themselves. Luby’s Cafeteria, Columbine, FT Hood, VA Tech, N Illinois, ……………….

Funny how multiple web sites show an average of 80 successful defensive gun uses a month.

Funny how if one googles “police collateral shootings” the total number of collateral shootings by 800k police is far greater than those th 8 million cpl licensees and the remaining 72 million law abiding gun owners commit ina single year. Dare to take that challenge anyone? By the simple logic of more people owning firearms by a 100 to 1 ratio than there are police, the law abiding civilian gun owners should have a higher actual total number of collaterall shootings, but they don’t.

Then the illogic of being afraid of something these theoretical what if’s people can’t even see. The bad guys already carry concealed. So where are all those police reports where these scaredy cats have pointed out those bad guys carrying concealed to police. Must be thousands, uh no, hundreds, uh no, tens, uh no, not even single digits of identifying the bad guys carrying concealed.

People who are afraid of something they can’t see, something they can’t identify, something they can’t quantify in real data or facts, are either mentally ill or seriously stupid.

These rescinding of laws prohibiting concealed carry does not force anyone much less everyone to carry concealed.

So how about you so called gun owners who are “AFRAID” quantifying with real facts why you are afraid rather than theoretical what if’s cause frankly we don’t give a tinkers damn what you believe, only what you can prove, which by the facts today isn’t didley squat on this subject.

An armed people represent the most serious and lasting threat to the eventual rule of the leftist elite. The Chuck Schumers of the world are not concerned in the slightest with accidental shootings, gang violence, “wild west” lunacy, the murder rate, suicide or any of the nonsensical, fraudulent arguments thrown against our right to keep and bear arms. They simple realize that 100 million armed Americans cannot be enslaved against their will.

Mas,

I’ve been actively campaigning for campus carry in Florida for some time now, writing legislators and pounding tables. In fact, I’ve been tempted to give you a yell a time or two to see if you would be willing to help.

The closest we got was SB 234. I sent numerous e-mails to the Criminal Justice committee leading up to their vote on the bill, and called senator Evers’ office. Evers’ aides were responsive to me and communicated with me about what was going on. Apparently, the father of the young woman who was accidently shot up at FSU spoke at the meeting, and Paula Dockery then spearheaded a gutting of the campus carry portion of SB 234.

It probably didn’t help that the UF student senate passed a resolution opposing such a bill.

The claim I got from Senator Evers’ aide was,

“As you pointed out, the concealed carry on campus language was amended out of SB 234 as the support for that provision simply was not there at this time.”

However, Senator Evers seems receptive to introducing new legislation to promote campus carry in Florida, provided there is enough support to get the bill passed.

I would encourage everyone to contact Senator Evers (evers.greg.web@flsenate.gov) and encourage him to reintroduce the legislation at his next earliest convenience.

If you know of any way I can be of further help to the cause, give me a shout.

DB

I agree with Rich.

I do not wish to toot my own horn because I’m more aware than anyone of my own shortcomings and deficiencies. However, when I began carrying concealed, my own hot-headedness took a nose dive. I’ve never been a violent person (never been in a fight), and never issued violent threats, but I’m able to rapidly escalate a situation if I wanted to with my words. That tendency I felt had been greatly tempered when I began carrying concealed.

Who wants to be the one who provokes a fight which could involve use of deadly force for protection when he is carrying? Not me.

Wow! When I went away to high school, I toted my deer rifle, a shot gun, and a Colt .38 special with me, and kept them in my room. I hunted deer and birds on the lands of that New Hampshire school, and it was a Quaker school of non-violence. No one even batted an eyelash. As a life long cop in a college town, I do sometimes have concerns about the maturity of eeven seniors, but never the less fully support the movement to ‘unfree gun” zone campuses.

I was on the rifle team of a private college in the early 70’s. We kept rifles, pistols, shotguns, samurai swords, blow guns, ammo, reloading equipment and other fine stuff in our dorm rooms. Not only was there no problem with the students, we had very little, if any, crime encroaching from the surrounding barrio.

When I was in grad school about 1973 we had a professor shot, who was auditing my class, by an unstable kid from Asia who had been denied his PhD. Legally I don’t think he was supposed to be able to own a gun. Fortunately it was a .25 or .32 and the prof survived. The kid ran out into the hall and shot in both directions and, a true miracle, missed about 200+ students and hit the doors at either end of the hallway despite the fact that nobody ducked or was even aware that a gun was being fired. Most people thought a pipe had burst in the ceiling.

He then ran outside, where I happened to be, and shot himself in the heart. He was rushed to TX Heart and Denton Cooley removed the bullet that was flopping around in one of his heart chambers.

I don’t think any of us who were near him felt endangered when he shot himself because it just did not register that this guy was anything but an idiot.

I don’t know if anybody was carrying that day but everybody was so startled they just stood around in disbelief. The whole episode was over in a couple of minutes.

Given today’s sensitivity, I think he would have been shot to pieces in the first 45 seconds if campus carry was allowed on TX campuses. Basically, CC was presumed to be legal in the 60’s and 70’s because nobody even knew if there were laws pertaining to concealed carry. It was not an issue, everybody carried when I grew up and everybody had a hunting rifle in their vehicle during high school.

I know of one individual, who although 49 years old and college educated, should not have been entrusted with a nuclear arsenal and the souls of quite a few uniformed heros. Now he REALLY scares me.

I feel that anyone licensed to carry a gun should have to undergo some type of competency training that goes beyond most conceal carry courses. This has nothing to do with owning a gun however, just carrying one in public places. Campuses can be included as carry permissible sites as long as the competency is there.

“The extension of the right to carry a loaded and concealed handgun in public to students on college campuses…”

Mr. Ayoob, I must respectfully protest your terminology. You have bought into the gun controller lie of “expanding a privilege that didn’t previously exist”.

What this represents is the restoration of an abridged Civil Right, and nothing lesser.

I’m a grad student and adjunct instructor at the University of Missouri, and a CCW permit holder. Campus carry is a complicated issue in my opinion. First, because the minimum age to acquire a handgun is twenty-one, that would eliminate most of the undergraduates, leaving graduate / professional students, staff and faculty. Most faculty are ideologically disposed to not be favorable to CCW or gun ownership. Most, but not all – I know professors who shoot and have CCW permits. But I think it comes down to trusting citizens who are adults, vetted and trained. Even if campus carry becomes law here, only a few will carry, just as in the society at large. I favor concealed carry on campus.

Second, I worry about the level of training required to obtain a CCW permit. I coach for a local firearms / CCW trainer who has high standards and goes well beyond the legal minimum standards. I have no problem with any of the people I’ve helped train carrying on campus. But not all trainers are so conscientious and I’ve seen and heard of low standards in training. If the alternatives are a psychopath with a gun and an armed, even minimally trained citizen, I’ll take the latter anyday, but level of training is important.

Third – I don’t fear a student upset over a grade. If one wanted to exact revenge for a low grade, no artificial barrier like a “gun free zone” would stop them. However, I do fear an active shooter incident such as at Virginia Tech. In that case, it could be counter-productive to have more than one armed citizen. It could also be beneficial – one armed person at VA Tech could have stopped the shooter earlier. Agian, training is important – in how to secure and defend a classroom, either armed or unarmed – as well as communication with local police. These are only some of the issues to consider.

I read the NY Times piece – and I agree in part with the author – the campus carry issue is a matter of changing public opinion, and university campuses are an important place to do that. However, in my opinion it is also a matter of safety. There have been active shooter incidents on campus that existing state law and university gun policies did not prevent. And there are also violent crimes on and near campus – recently armed robbieries and strong-arm robberies here at MU. None of the predictions of blood in the streets have come true, despite the anti-gun fears, and the argument that more people carrying guns is hard to prove, despite the pro-gun assertions.

People have a right to defend themselves, and that right is affirmed by the Constitution, and state laws allow CCW most places by trained and vetted citizens. Concealed carry on college campuses is a positive in my opinion. In my opinion it comes down to choice – either you choose to be a victim, or you don’t. I choose the latter.

Mike Snodgrass
History Department
University of Missouri

I believe that if someone can qualify for a concealed carry permit they should be able to carry everywhere, at any time, in any state, whether at a daycare, a university, or an airplane. There should be no gun free zones.

If the claim is that untrained people shouldn’t be allowed to carry on campus, meaning that the training and vetting CCW carriers receive isn’t enough, perhaps there should be a higher level of training people can go through to be able to carry virtually everywhere, like on duty law enforcement. It could be similar to having a higher security clearance, one level letting you carry concealed in your car (which is about all one can do with a CCW permit in my state), one letting you carry in places that serve alcohol when you’re sober, and one that even lets you carry on airplanes. It wouldn’t be a perfect scenario, but as it is I can rarely carry a gun, no matter how much training I have and how clean my record is.

Lots of good arguments and points here, and no simple answers. Many are worried about the irresponsible being allowed to carry; what makes anyone think they aren’t carrying already? I know it’s an old argument; “laws are for the law abiding”, but they don’t even slow down the irresponsible.

I carried legally when I was a college student back home in Indiana in the ’80s. Licensure was available there at age 18, though I think I was 19 before I got my “pink slip”. No training was required. I recall once noting another student who was definitely carrying, though there were MANY who appeared to probably be carrying. I don’t believe anyone ever had a problem with carrying on campus.

Back then we had a great shooting range in the student union, too. Those were the days . . .

In my state the argument for/against exercising 2nd amendment rights on a college campus is in reality not about those rights. It is a proxy for the ongoing power struggle between the state (government and citizens) and the colleges. The “state” colleges want no oversight from the state government in any way shape or form. They want to dictate all policy governing the colleges with no input from the state, citizen taxpayers or students for that matter. Colleges are generally run by academic elite that know what is best for their populations. Often the colleges try to dictate what will go on in the communities around them, always jockeying for the position that will best fit the colleges. I am pretty sure they would be happy if they could eliminate the need for students but that is a hurdle to be crossed in the future.

The Boards of Regents and College Presidents (Deans) want everyone to know that colleges are their Feifdom and the public has no say in how they are run.

The one point I haven’t seen well discussed here, is that a college campus is used by more than students. My wife & I have attended great cultural events that were unfortunately held on campus grounds. The places we would end up parking at, which were off campus, were where I really felt I needed to be armed. But once on campus grounds, I’d be in violation. In the end, I chose to carry anyway. My wife’s and my safety are too important.

Another side effect of this: We choose to avoid events held on campus because of this irresponsible rule.

I am a returning student, having my college paid for via the GI Bill. Our state bans carry on school campus. After a few long discussions with a couple of class mates (who are sheriffs), it seemed that I would rather be caught with it if/when I needed then without. The word college brings to mind drunken frat parties. And yes that is a part of the “college experience”. The campus, however, is just another public place where many and all walks of society meet: including crooks. Any logic one uses to support limiting or banning the right to carry on a campus will try to use that logic to ban rights else where.

“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. ”
Thomas Jefferson

A thought comes to mind. Why is an adult with a CCW that doesn’t go to college more responsible than an adult with a CCW that does go to college? Why does a college campus (a public place with students, teachers, admin, maintence, social workers etc) immediately render an adult incompetent to carry a weapon? Is there something magical about a college campus that I don’t understand? If so, maybe we need to fix the college culture.

I am a professor at a small private college in the midwest. I am 100% in favor of concealed carry on campus. So called “gun free zones” are simply not effective at stopping those who would do harm to innocent people. They only create soft targets.

It does not make sense that an adult, liscensed to carry a concealed weapon, would suddenly change lnto a wild-eyed shooter once he/she crosses the line onto campus.

While my campus is relatively safe; crimes, especially against women, are a serious problem on larger campuses. There are those who would deny someone’s daughter the right to carry a gun when walking back to her dorm after a night class, or on the short but lonely walk from the corner of a dark parking lot to her room; all in the name of ….. what? safety?

Campus Security Officers, while they do a great job, cannot be everywhere all the time.

I brought up training as an issue not simply because it adds to public confidence. The training necessary to fight and win a lethal encounter is not possessed by a large number of concealed carry members. Poor training makes you more of a threat to yourself and the public than it may to an aggressor. There would be a depletion of your skills in an actual encounter compared to shooting on the range. Many police officers and military personnel miss multiple shots in an actual gunfight. Most gunfights take place between 7 and 10 feet, however it is easy to miss even at those distances when both combatants are moving and shooting at each other at the same time. Everybody says that the key is shot placement. Try hitting your adversary with good shots when all hell breaks loose and bullets are flying at you and others you may be trying to protect. Any smart person would be running for some type of cover. Getting the drop on your opponent is when you better land that shot properly, because your best chance for landing that shot may be earlier than later. 0therwise your chances of getting shot yourself are greatly enhanced. This does not even take into consideration multiple attackers like in some terrorist attacks or what happened at Columbine.

Why are rights dependent on age?

Why can an 18 year old vote, drive, go to war, but not drink, or defend him/herself?

Doesn’t seem justified.

I believe that when one goes through a good CCW course, they learn a LOT about RESPONSIBLE gun carry. That is the key. Even at age 33, I know others my age who are immature and irresponsible. But a sense of RESPONSIBILITY is key, no matter what age you are talking about.

A good CCW course will teach people to take cover as quickly as possible, collect their senses, THEN fire, if necessary.

Although I will follow the law by keeping a CCW license, I do not believe that government has the right to require the license in order to carry. I believe we all have the RIGHT to carry. But with every RIGHT, we have RESPONSIBILITIES. By wanting to be responsible, even if a CCW course was not required, I would attend, in order to educate, train, and prepare myself for that “what if” situation.

All that said, I think campus carry is a good idea, just as I think carrying in ANY public forum is a good idea.

“the minimum age to acquire a handgun is twenty-one”
Only from an FFL (which requires a background check).
An adult (18+) may legally purchase a handgun from another citizen or receive it as a gift (which does not require a background check in free states).

Another stupid law is that an adult under 21 may not purchase ammo for a pistol, only for a long gun. And if it’s something that can be used for either, it’s up to the store or clerk whether or not to make the sale.

As for the topic of the post, I could understand requiring concealed carry so as not to stampede the sheeple (don’t jump on me – I’m a huge proponent of open carry & do so practically every day), but cannot understand any logical reason to prevent good citizens from exercising their civil rights on campus.

I am a nontraditional student, returning to college at the age of 42. WI just got a cc law, and the college I attend has already updated its policy manual to say that firearms are prohibited with or without a permit.
That doesn’t have the force of law, but if they post signs on the door that will.

So I’m faced with the decision, as are many other permit holders, do I want to be prepared to protect myself or do I want to follow the law & campus policy? If I were caught I’d probably be kicked out of school, a serious setback to my career plans.
I’m thinking that I’ll carry it in a small combination safe that’s usually cable-locked to the driver’s seat. Probably will never need it, little chance of being found out (unlike a belly band or IWB).

Your point is well taken about our young men in military service. Most law abiding citizens are level headed and responsible. The ones we need to worry about are the criminals who are more apt to be carrying a gun. These individuals aren’t responsible and are a real threat. I wouldn’t have a problem with any student legally carrying a concealed weapon. It would make our colleges a much safer place to be. Hopefully many of those students will be getting their criminal psychology degree. For more information on getting a degree in law enforcement, see: http://www.how-to-become-a-cop.com/criminal-psychology-degree.html