Nearly a month ago, the sudden unrest in Egypt turned violent and criminal, prompting the law-abiding citizens to form ad hoc neighborhood groups to defend themselves. Those who could get their hands on a shotgun in a country where strict gun control limits firearms ownership to the rich and powerful, were the lucky ones. Read about it here: http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/30/with-egyptian-police-absent-civilians-arm-themselves-to-protect/.

It wasn’t long before one of the more moonbeams-and-butterflies anti-gun bloggers had waxed eloquent about how the Egyptian uprising had shown that with strict gun control, there could be peaceful revolution without anyone getting hurt. I guess she missed the three-figure death count in the first few days in Egypt, and the prisons emptying and the criminals looting guns from armories abandoned by the same police who abandoned the law-abiding citizens there.

And look what’s happening in Libya: http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/24/libyan-army-hits-mosque-near-tripoli-witness-says/?icid=maing%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec1_lnk3%7C46275

And in Tunisia:  http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/01/2011116141359683604.html

And folks are getting nervous in Lebanon: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mess-report-fearing-civil-war-lebanese-citizens-arm-themselves-1.318287

Over the last few weeks, on airplanes and in restaurants all over the country, I’ve overheard conversations in which people compare current events in the Middle East to the American Revolution. I just bite my tongue. I hope I’m wrong, but I fear that a year from now Egypt is going to look less like the United States in the late 18th Century than like Iran right now.

But, if nothing else, these recent events show us the vision of the Founders and Framers who gave us the Second Amendment. Anyone who thinks 2A is obsolete in the 21st Century need only look to what is happening in the Middle East today.

What’s you folks’ take on it?

1 COMMENT

  1. When governments abdicate their responsibilities — as they did during the 1992 Los Angeles riots, and after Katrina, and now in Egypt — we see why responsible people have to be prepared to take care of themselves. The 2nd Amendment is far from obsolete, and I grow angry with those who expect others to come to protect them in times of crisis. That seems to me like a juvenile and irresponsible outlook.

    Bob

  3. Agreed, with further comment.

    Notice also, at least for now, the people in the United States have internet, cell, television, land line, print and face to face communication available.

    The events referenced in the original post provide evidence that unless the people maintain and exercise systemic control of ALL of their constitutionally PROTECTED rights, the people will be less than able to defend against authoritarian aggression.

    Mike

  4. I have no problem with folks having guns. I have a problem with the lax background check and waiting period laws. I also find it silly to ban anyone who has ever had a mental health issue from having a gun. What about police and soliders? Ever heard of PTSD? I also do not think there is a need for extended clips. A person shot with 15 bullets is just as dead as on shot with 30. So I say, have your gun (or more if you would like). Register them. Make sure that there is a law requires you to update your address info with in 30 days of a move. Put in place a law that says if your weapon is used in a crime, but has not been reported lost or stolen then you can be charged as an aceesory. Gun owners say they are about being responsible. These restrictions are NOT taking away the guns, just making sure that we can keep track of weapons in our country.

  6. I fear those riots are on their way to the U.S. Just look at Wisconsin and now Indiana. There are comments by Democrats to “get bloody”. The deputy attorney general of Indiana was just fired for saying to use live ammunition on the protestors. And Gov. of Wisconsin admitted to thinking about planting a fake protester in the rabble in order to incite violence so they could bring in riot control to force them out of the WI capitol.

    Meanwhile, the Federal Reserve’s printing presses are full steam ahead, causing massive inflation in food prices. And the Mid East’s turmoil is wreaking havoc on oil prices which will further increase the price of food here.

    Everything points to this coming to America. I hope it doesn’t, but we’d all be stupid to not be ready to lay low just in case.

    ~WS

  7. Of all the stories I have heard coming out of these events, the most inspiring are those of the Libyan air force pilots who refused orders to fire on protesters and, in one case, defected, and in another case, ditched their planes in the ocean. There are so many examples throughout history of people “just following lawful orders” and doing absolutely terrible things. It gives me hope to hear of people who do the right thing, even though it means that basically their whole life as they knew it is over.

  8. I’m probably the youngest person who frequents here and probably the youngest member of the ACLDN. I grew up in the People’s Republic of Kalifornia as well. But in CO, I have a XD45 and SW442 on myself anytime I’m outside.

    Not sure where I got it from but I’ve always seen firearms as a valuable tool. I keep firearms for the same reason I keep first-aid kits, smoke-detectors, and fire extinguishers. I hope I never need to use any of them, but if I ever do, it’ll sure be nice to have.

    It’s the same with training, you can hope you never need first-aid training and not take it. Or you could accept that you may need it and seek training. I’d hate to lose a loved one because I didn’t know proper first-aide. And that’s the same reason why I also train with firearms.

    My fiancé and I don’t have a lot of money but I’m sure as Hell not skipping out of important stuff. We’ll skip going out to eat instead of skipping out on good equipment or training.

    So in a sense owning firearms and knowing how to use them has never been a question for me. All it takes is a riot or disaster and those firearms will come in handy. Same with stocking up on food etc.

  9. Mas:

    Agreed, with further comment.

    Notice also, at least for now, the people in the United States have internet, cell, television, land line, print and face to face communication available.

    The events referenced in the original post provide evidence that unless the people maintain and exercise systemic control of ALL of their constitutionally PROTECTED rights, the people will be less than able to defend against authoritarian aggression.

    Mike

  10. This looks like it was planned by the Muslim Brotherhood. Notice who the squeeze is on, Isreal and Saudi Arabia. Notice the price of oil ? They say it will come here. I believe it. Notice the porous southern border. Notice the admin.is doing nothing.

  11. Always recommend that folks read, really read, the Declaration of Independence. That document spells out the rationale for what is the most revolutionary form of governance ever to be on this planet. One in which the PEOPLE are granted by their creator the natural right to dissolve and throw off any government which they deem oppressive. Period, full stop ! Then the founders done gone and gave the people the protected means to do just that. All the ersatz revolutionaries and rulers that have been, can’t even begin to come close to what those glorious documents recognized and granted Americans.

  12. A rude awakening happened to all the people who ran to the gun stores to buy a fire arm during the 1992 LA riots only to find out that they had to wait 2 weeks to bring the gun home. They found out first hand how bad the 2 week waiting period was (A lot of those people rallied and voted for that law and then were outraged when it was enforced… on them). The ability to defend your self, with a fire arm, from thugs, gangs, looters and YES the government should always be a viable option… Period!!

    With the rapidly growing economic crisis right here at home and all the service cuts and police layoffs a firearm will be your best bet to keep yourself and loved ones safe. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    No matter how many unarguable examples for the 2nd amendment present them selves People still have a problem understanding the “shall not be infringed” part.

  13. Americans are very trusting and have a short memory that comes from a blessedly prosperous and generally safe country. But during Katrina the civil society broke down and also during the rodney king riots in los angelos. Was it you Mas you compared the carry of defensive handguns to the use of a fire extinguisher in the home?? It was a great analogy whoever the author. The premise being that you keep a fire extinguiser in your home evan though you have a fire department and 911 on speed dial. The author reasoned that if a fire breaks out in your home the fire department may be too late.

    Mas, could you re-tell the fire extinguisher analogy??
    Thanks!

  16. Hey Val,

    For me and others like me, your credibility dropped down to 0 right when you referred to a magazine as a “clip” in your promotion of “reasonable restrictions” and the like.

    You demonstrated that you either know little to nothing when it comes to guns, gun ownership, criminal justice and our Constitutional rights- or you are just a snake pretending to be okay with “folks having guns” while simultaneously endorsing excerpts from the most Unconstitutional anti-gun legislation that the left has attempted to cram down our throats.

    Your comment seems a lot more like the ignorant garbage I’d read on any anti-gun article on Huffpo. Gun owners have no more use for your drivel here than we would for it over there. Get honest and get informed, or get out.

  17. On another forum (reddit’s “worldnews” area) somebody mentioned that “10,000 Egyptians with guns invading Cairo’s central square would have been a bad thing”. This was my response, written before Libya blew up which is proving to be a horse of a different color (all-out war):

    —

    OK, here’s how it works.

    If you want to pull off a relatively bloodless revolution patterned on what happened in Tunisia, you need to get the cops and/or the military on your side.

    SHOOTING those same cops/soldiers is counter-productive if that’s your goal. So yes, the original poster is correct: 10,000 armed Egyptians in Tahrir Square would have done more harm than good.

    But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a role for guns!!!

    See, a dictator like Murabak has a problem: not enough psychopaths to go around. He needs total psychos to do the “secret police” crap – the midnight arrests, torture sessions, body dumping, etc. So the usual pattern is, he’ll pile up those sorts in a small number of organizations, sometimes as little as one org. This model was adopted by Nazi Germany: you had the SS doing the really horrible shit as opposed to the regular German military and even most German cops who usually despised what the SS were up to.

    The pattern was actually perfected by the Tsars in Russia prior to the commies taking over.

    So what does this mean?

    Well when you’re out doing the mass demonstrations, you don’t want guns around so long as things haven’t gone all the way to a civil war.

    Where you DO want guns is at the small organizing meetings for the protests “behind the scenes” where you have to fear raids by the real psycho-organization(s). THOSE bastards (local equivalent to the SS/etc.) need shooting!

    The US civil rights movement was no different. Esp. early on when Dr. King wasn’t a major figure that couldn’t be taken out without a major backlash, his home and various meeting places were armed camps ready to fend off midnight KKK raids. Out on the streets waving signs or doing sit-ins or whatever, no, that’s the time for unarmed resistance patterned along Ghandi’s system whenever that’s possible.

    The other time guns come in handy is when leaders or organizers are quietly on the move. The “Mississippi Burning” murders happened in 1964 when a single carload of voter registration workers were ambushed and killed with the cooperation of local cops. After that, a lot of those voter registration workers went armed and some Klan died too out in the back roads where the gruntwork of civil rights reform was happening.

    Now…I’m uniquely qualified to discuss this. I’m a former lobbyist (2003-2005) for a smaller “NRA similar” org, yet I’ve also been arrested and spent 18 hours in the San Diego County jail for an unarmed protest against illegal voting system secrecy by that county – an unarmed protest taken straight out of Dr. King’s playbook. But if somebody from Diebold or the like ever wanted to take me out, well they COULD, sure, but not quietly. Not at ALL quietly – I can make damned sure of that. Full-house 357Mag is anything but quiet.

    Upshot: Non-violent protest is strongly preferred over an all-out civil war by anyone sane, but at the same time organizers of protests can and have been subject to criminal assassination – and have an absolute personal civil right to self defense under such circumstances. And it works because regimes don’t have a hell of a lot of real psychos to threaten you with.

    Jim March – Member of the Board of Directors, BlackBoxVoting.org (I’m one of Bev Harris’ “lieutenants”) and separately, 2nd Vice Chair, Pima County Libertarian Party

  18. Folks, just a reminder that we want to keep things civil: “attack the idea, not the speaker,” and all that.
    Thanks,
    Mas

  19. To Val
    Sure how many woud have died in Los Angles, riots, Katrina, and multi people that are being stalked by a enraged spouse or boyfriend while they wait for 10 days. When they do come who is going t o limit my magazines to a 10 rounds. Thats why the police carry 30 rd mags. Not to kill people but to protect themselves and others. Why should I have less protection. Find one study tghat shows gun control has worked to save lives. You can’t. There are none. Only law abiding obey the rules. Those with criminal intent do not.

  20. The coverage of the events in North Africa have been so poorly covered in the MSM that it is laughable. CBS/CNN/NBC/ABC give Pravda and Izvestia a run for their money.

    And with the thuggish public union behavior on display in Wisconsin, all backed by the President’s political machine, it is clear that there are undemocratic, totalitarian forces at work here in the USA too, that are willing to subvert the US Constitution as soon as the American people let there guard down. It’s the 2A and firearm owning Americans that truly are the guardians of the US Constitution and the Republic.

  21. Good leaders like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, and Ronald Reagan have no objection to their citizens keeping, bearing, and using firearms lawfully. However, dictators and power hungry politicians like Joe Stalin, Adolf Hitler, HillBilly, our current Dear Leader, and various third world despots don’t want their subjects to have access to weapons which can be used to challenge their authority. Without the Second Admendment, all the other admendments and our constitutional rights can be taken away from us because we will have no way, without a much greater sacrifice of lives, to defend ourselves and resist tyranny.

  22. I find it interesting that the media and government state that “universal human rights” like free speech and the right of assembly should be honored in these Middle Eastern countries. These analysts forget that these rights are only guaranteed in a few nations, most notably in the United States through the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution. Yet, the current administration and the media only want some of the rights for our own citizens. Many want the first amendment, but not the second to apply to our won citizens.

    As for Libya, the Wall Street Journal reported today that many of the protesters taking up arms have military training due a universal draft of all able bodied young men. Unfortunately, most young men and women in the USA are unfamiliar with shooting. If it came to defend our country, most of these young men especially learned all that they know about shooting from playing video games.

  23. Val,
    I really don’t care if my next door neighbor owns a howitzer as long as he doesn’t point it at me.

    I get very afraid when people start talking about restricting my rights on basis of “need”. If we go down that highway we end up with the comissars telling us what to eat, what to drive, and where to live.

    Why do you need a 30 round magazine,why do you need toeat steak, why do you need to live 30 miles from where you work, why do you need a car that goes 15 MPH?

    No thanks I’ll let my neighbor decide what he needs and I’ll decide what I need. and as long as he doesn’t cross the property line we’re all good.

  25. An earlier comment stated: “I have no problem with folks having guns,” but then went on to call for registration and draconian requirements for reporting.

    Registration has been a tool of tyrants for a long time, and is generally followed by confiscation, and often by massacres of civilians by the government. Look at 20th century history for many examples of this.

    Mexico, for instance, has very strict gun control, and law-abiding people cannot own weapons. The average Mexican citizen is quite vulnerable to crime and violence, especially women. The recent narcotraficante violence is only the latest problem in that country. In 1968, for example, there was shooting of student protesters in Mexico City by the government.

    It is based on the false idea that weapons can be tracked and can be kept out of certain hands. This doesn’t even work in a controlled environment, like a prison. Gun control only ensures that the wrong people have guns, and that women, older people, and those with physical limitations are especially vulnerable to being preyed upon by young, male predators.

    No thank you.

  26. …”moonbeams and butterflies”???…Could you possibly be referring to the Old New Governator of the People’s Republic of Kalifornia Jerry “Moonbeam” Brown???…As soon as the Arabs get done with their revolutions, we need to get ours going to rid the law abiding folks out here of the ridiculously restrictive gun control dictates that Moonbeam and his cronies have long forced down our throats!!!

  27. The next time somebody asks, “why do you need an AK-47”?, you can answer them by saying, “we don’t want a Libyan replay here”.

  28. Absolutely right! Please spread the word! The second amendment is he next most important thing after freedom of speech for preserving our democracy. the media is all over a rare shooting, but when thousands of unarmed people are gunned down in the best argument for gun rights unfolding right before our eyes, NOW THE MEDIA AVOIDS THE GUN RIGHTS ISSUE ! COME ON JOURNALISTS! The Libyan army could never gun down thousands of people if they had a second amendment rights there. And the fact that you dont see dictators sprouting up in America is not because we are magically “evolved” – it’s because we have 100 million gun owners. The second amendment is not about hunting, it is about democracy, and human nature. Washington called guns “liberty’s teeth.” Why do we need assault weapons? Because power should not be concentrated with any government, not even ours. Governments sooner or later always abuse their power, if they can. Is any journalist brave enough to cover this?

  29. I wanted to toss the Libyan crowd a few of my weapons so they’d have a fighting chance when I saw them going up against mercenaries.

    I was obviously considerably more troubled by the rape of Lara Logan, however, reminding me that societies differ in their treatement of women.

    I think the MSM including ABC and CNN media did a fair job in a hostile environment. You can always go to Al Jazeera live streaming for another perspective.

  30. The 2nd Amendment effectively means nothing in this country anytime the SHTF. Like Katrina, the government will likely ignore the criminals and spend their time attacking law abiding citizens by confiscating their legally owned private property, namely firearms.

  31. Val,

    Very dangerous thinking there!

    Others rebuked you–and they should!

    What’s special about the number “10” in magazine capacity (the number of rounds from the AWB of 1994 or the recent legislation in Congress)? Nothing. It’s an arbitrary number. May I remind everyone that the Virginia Tech shooter used 10 round magazines? Maybe we should restrict to 9 rounders? I’m sure we can find something bad about “9”, too. What about 8 round mags? 7 rounders (m1911 fans speak up)? 6? 5? 4? 3? 2?

    OK. Let’s be like England and only allow single shot break action hunting rifles.

    Do you see where this is going yet? It’s a big, tall, wet, slippery slope. Enjoy the ride. There’s no fun way to stop at the bottom.

    Also, there is ZERO reason to “track weapons in our country” as you put it. The only thing we need to track is that each of us law abiding, responsible, and rational citizens are neutralizing threats by also packing however many rounds we want to, whenever we want. And that “tracking” should be self-regulated. Want to turn in your guns? Go right ahead. The rest of us will apply sound logic and protect our families.

    Worried about mentally ill? There are probably many readers of this blog who might conjecture that a gun owner willing to restrict their magazine capacity and subject their firearms to “tracking” is mentally ill. “Mentally ill” is also a slippery slope. Who decides? Where’s the due process? Don’t forget “innocent until proven guilty”, etc. I long for the day when even the mentally ill realize that it’s pure suicide to threaten the general public with wanton gun violence because of the immediate return course of fire for sane, responsible, and self-sufficient citizens in every state, county, and township.

    Val, I genuinely hope you see the error in your logic and come to grave terms about how much liberty you are giving away in the name of a little safety. A wise man, Ben Franklin, reminds us that to do that means we deserve neither the liberty nor the safety.

    To the rest of you: Keep your powder dry!

  32. to Steve, you are 100% spot on! and i especially like when you call a rape, a rape. I’m sick and tired of the media calling it sexually assaulted. it is what it is. sexually assaulted could cover anything from a flasher to unwanted advances. Keep strong!

  33. Ah yes, Lara Logan, her trials started during the celebration after Mubarak stepped down . All women report being groped in public.

  34. Val, you must remember one thing. Laws are only obeyed by the “Law Abiding”.
    All the laws in the world don’t mean a single thing to those who chose to ignore them. That goes for people and Governments alike.
    I am sorry to say that your thinking is naive.

    Thinking that a woman, raped and strangled to death, while waiting for 911 to show up, is somehow morally superior to one standing over the body of a career criminal holding a smoking pistol in her hand.

    Or that limiting “MAGAZINES” to 10 rounds will stop a criminal from reloading a second, third, forth magazine or even pulling out a second pistol or third. Heck, even Cops will tell you that a “New york reload, AKA grabbing a second gun, is faster than a standard reload.

    How about some “Personal Responsibility and Accountability”?

    Do you blame the car when a drunk driver kills a family?

    Maybe we need to ask Reginald Denny about how well the Police Protected him during the Rodney King Riots. Oh wait, SCOTUS says that the Police don’t have to protect you.

    Ask Suzanna Gratia Hupp how she feels about the law that she obeyed, a law that said it was illegal to carry a firearm in a public place, while the criminal didn’t care about that law, when George Hennard crashed through the front window with his truck … then began shooting helpless patrons, 23 of them execution-style.

    What about the V Tech shooting, how many laws were broken when Seung-Hui Cho, killed 32 people and wounded many others[1] before committing suicide.

    I can go on for hours, citing where law abiding citizens were murdered when those same people obeyed the laws whiles others chose not to.

    Good luck with your life, I sincerely hope that it never happens to you.

  35. Val should read Codrea and Vanderboegh on project gunwalker. The only people around that seem to be violating gun laws are the batf and getting fellow federal agents murdered. This oppressive communist regime under the Obamunist is going to ratchet up gun laws to control the honest folks. Just look at what has not been done on the undeclared war on the southern border. No effective measures have been taken to stop the war on our own citizens except, “We need more gun laws” from libs and the administration. The 2nd amendment is more important than ever. The govt is the bad guy coming for you.

  36. The Constitution is just a piece of paper. Any battered woman with a restraining order knows just how well a piece of paper protects you. Most people aren’t taught that the Bill of Rights was written in an order of importance. The most important rights are those of free expression, assembly, religion, etc.

    The second amendment was written to protect the rest. Free expression can easily be taken away when you don’t have the means to defend it. Any oppressive force, be it government or other, that wishes to dominate and dictate to a populace will first seek to take away all means of defense. Once that is gone remaining rights are as easy to take as tearing up a piece of paper.

    I wish I could look upon the events of the Middle East and think of 1776 America but I think time will show the only real change will be which power dictates the rest.

  37. @Fred:

    Right on! I spent Saturday morning teaching my best friend’s twins how to shoot. We used a pair of M&P15-22s for the lesson…even an RSO thought they were real ARs until we showed him otherwise. It was a great experience and I think the kids learned a bit more than they would in an average day at school! Not surprisingly, the daughter outshot the son…no doubt due to a lack of bad habits from playing with Airsoft toys!

    Mike H.

  38. I never said anywhere that anyone should not have a gun. You buy a first aid kit BEFORE the emergency. Should you not also do the same for a gun if you are going to use it for protection? I havve lived around guns for most of my life (hunting mostly). I have always chosen NOT to carry a gun. I do not want or need one (and yes I have been stalked, but I followed the laws and reported things and eventually the police scared off the guy). It is NOT infringing on your right to OWN a gun if you restrict clip capacity. Also, the Second Amendment speak of a well armed MILITIA. So agian, I still think there needs to be background checks and laws to enforce responsibility (just like we have with car drivers- speed limits etc).

  39. Well, pretty much everything that needed to be said has been said. so I’ll just quote some folks who knew what they were talking about.

    “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. All conquerors who have allowed their subjects to carry arms have prepared their own downfall.” Adolf Hitler

    “The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.” Hubert Humphrey

    “We did not invade America after the attack on Pearl Harbor because the was a gun behind every blade of grass.” Admiral Yamomoto

    Think about it Val.

  40. Val,

    You probably picked the wrong blog to comment on ;), however I would like to respectfully let you know that many of the assumptions used in your argument, while widely believed, are not true. (see gunrights.info for sources)

    “Lax background checks”… pretty rare, but there are many bogus media stories about sales between PRIVATE individuals.

    “Gun Registration”… doesn’t work. Among the states requiring registration, there has never been a gun crime traced back to a registered owner.

    “Waiting periods”… most crimes take from 1 to 12 years. In states that do have a waiting period, there has been no change in homicide rates, and a statistical increase in rape and assault (I won’t imply cause).

    “Magazine size”… just listen to “The ProArms Podcast” #052 http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/05/23/052-interview-with-bob-stasch-of-the-chicago-police-department/

    It’s hard to admit, but sometimes we just can’t fix everything. Passing bad laws (that may,in fact, make things worse) will never change that.

  41. I like to reply to Val on his idea of registration of guns….I actually lived through this in Africa, its a bad,bad, bad idea(did I say that enough), its just another way of confiscation, a bunch of red tape, expensive charges , denials due to all kinds of restrictions, have left most guns owners in a state of being illegal owners, or they had to hand in their firearms, all this happening while criminals are ruling the streets carrying AK-47’s.
    A rogue goverment now knows exactly where everybody lives who still own a legal gun and house visits are legal, DON”T LET IT HAPPEN IN THE USA…

  42. Another @ Val
    Now you do realise that WE THE PEOPLE are the militia don’t you? At the time of the writing of the constitution the militia was considerd to be every able bodied male reguardless of age and they were required to provide their own firearm and ammo now that we know better(that women are not weak and frail) it is every able bodied person.as our constitution is all about checks and ballances the 2nd was written the way it is not only to provide for protection from foreign invaders but also to give us the means to protect ourselves from our own government if need be. why would you want to tip the ballance even further to government power over us? They all ready have the standing military the national guard an increasingly militarised police force all with full automatic weppons and high capacity mags. I’m not seeing a lot of ballance there so to restrict us further just makes it easeier for the government to continue their daily assult upon us.