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Massad Ayoob on Guns

Want to Comment on a blog post? Look for and click on the blue No Comments or # Comments at the end of each post.

Massad Ayoob


Saturday, November 17th, 2012

Secession is in the news after the election. Petitions to secede from the United States are apparently in all fifty less-united-than-they-used-to-be states.
Good that we’re not bitter…or overreacting…
Will the seceding states join one another? What will this new order be called? “The United Red States”? And if the Federal government tries to stop that will it trigger Civil War II, or The War Between the, uh, Blue and Red States? Or The War of Blue Aggression?
Seriously, though, I’d like to hear what you who read this blog think of the whole secession thing.

74 Responses to “SECESSION?”

  1. Illinois Bob Says:

    This country gets more divided every day. Poor vs rich, right vs left, liberal vs conservative. We need to come together for the common good but neither side wishes to give up anything. I personally want to live in the America founded at the beginning of this country – one of limited government and great personal responsibility. Today we live at a time of ever growing government and diminishing personal responsibility.

    When dependency on government grows and the 47% becomes 52% becomes 65% it becomes impossible to enact change through the conventional methods. People receiving government cheese never vote for someone who openly states he will take it away. At some point the scales tip, the straw breaks and the overgrown tree of control that strips liberty and freedom must be either pruned way back or uprooted, burned to ash and replanted.

    I am not rich but I am greatly offended when I continually hear my government say that the rich don’t pay their fair share. Romney himself paid more than approximately 180,000,000 other Americans and more than 150,000,000 combined. He paid more in taxes in one year than I will make in my entire life. And yet we don’t think he paid his fair share. In the value system that I was raised with that isn’t fair it is greed.

    Will there be a civil war? I would argue that we are already in a civil war over the beliefs of what this country should be. It is currently a war of words where mud is thrown. Soon we will start to see small pebbles in the mud that will lead to larger and larger stones.

    This country was started with the belief that our rights are given to us by God. Now over half of one of the two major parties no longer believes in God and they were supported by over half of the voting population. Strip God and our accountability to Him out of our government and we are left with a government that does what they feel is in their best interest. No 32 ounce sugary drink for you. The right to kill an unborn American for you….

    Revolution is inevitable. The only question that remains is will it be done through the electoral process or by Americans armed with pick forks.

  2. Jack Says:

    While I’m convinced absolutely nothing will come of this game (the White House petitions) because this is not the way that any of this would ever be properly done if it were an acual legal movement, and none of these people can speak for their states anyway, it is opening some discussions that reflect the depth of the division that has developed within America.

    The two best editorials I’ve read on what is transpiring are: which is the most accurate reflection of the nature of the division (hint: it isn’t fiscal, social, or even political)
    and which is the only viable solution I’ve seen that could create any future harmonious coexistence.

    One way or another, our nation is coming apart at the seams. There are those who seriously want to destroy what most of us (reading this blog) consider America to be and are currently controlling both primary political parties. The outcome of the recent election, if reversed, would not have changed the direction of this snowball, it would only have placated to some extent those who are deluded that the problem has a political solution under our current circumstances while triggering mass riots from the opposite pole of the political system.

    Until we grasp that this nation is coming apart and the solution cannot originate from within the political system that has created the problem, we will never seriously pursue actual solutions for our future.

  3. Tom Says:

    I’m going to secede from work the 3rd week in January to go to the SHOT Show.

  4. Uncle Dave Says:

    According to the Constitution you can not make states from current states. It is spitting into the wind! That means expect to get some back on you. Somebody is wanting you to put your name on a list for political reasons. Don’t expect it to help you in the long run. I’ll agree with mister Hill, expect it to bite you.

  5. MFZ3 Says:

    The States created a ‘Small” Federal Government to handle a few national issues- Provide a Common Monetary system, Conduct a Census, provide for common Defense etc. If the federal government oversteps it’s bounds, the Declaration of Independence indicates that it is not only our Right but our DUTY to address these issues.
    I believe the best way is by groups of States sucking it up and becoming self sufficient and not accepting “Federal” Money.

  6. Irish Mike Says:

    Uh oh. I thought we had already done the secession thing. I’ve been sending taxes to Kansas City (the new Capitol?)
    BTW people, keep it pithy. I want t read your witty rage but you go on and on.

  7. Drake Says:

    What it boils down to is that they are to send a message – at least, that’s why I signed the NC one. It’s a way of expressing severe disagreement, and besides – in a way, it’s also to see what kind of hilarious response the White House issues.

    We need to first start with nullification, of course. Contact your legislatures and your governor in some way and start urging them to nullify Obamacare and Federal firearms regulation, among other unconstitutional laws. Oh, and they need to get National Guard units back to their states, already.

    Secession is a last resort, and what I’m hoping is that one or very few states will actually leave if it comes to that. They will instantly be flooded with libertarian and conservative immigrants. That will at least make sure that the new country won’t get out of line for a generation or two, and maybe it’ll have a permanent effect. Possibly a Texas/Arizona/Louisiana union? I could roll with that.

  8. George Says:

    Instead of session, let’s start with a million gun-owner march on Washington! How do we get that started, Mas?

  9. Tom606 Says:

    Before anyone signs one of these petitions to secede, they should consider this might a sneaky government scheme to find out who to target in case something does happen in the future and martial law is declared by our Dear Leader who may fancy himself a modern Abe Lincoln and use this situation to make himself dictator by maintaining permanent martial law.

    The U.S. Government will have a lot of trouble demanding it’s subjects turn over their firearms and face millions of armed gun owners. What they will do is target certain active and vocal people and terminate them in the middle of the night and then claim the victims were fighting the police with deadly force and therefore justify their actions. There is no way the feds will declare war on Americans and face them on the streets where they will be outnumbered and mowed down. Patriots will be quietly removed or made examples of in selected attacks mainly at night at their homes with overwhelming force and weapons. Having an AR-15 and 1911 pistol will not do one much good when a dozen or more heavily armed and armored Ninja types kick in your door at 3AM and toss in a flash bang, then come in with NVDs and hose you down with subsonic hollow points from their MP-5 SDs while you’re still in bed. A crime scene can then be established to keep out neighbors while a story is developed and the scene fixed up and victims posed to support that fictitious account. Since most people are gullible, especially those who voted for the Dear Leader, the official story of the incident will be swallowed hook, line, and sinker and the police will be hailed as heros who took down a crazed maniac armed with weapons of mass destruction, who was a traitor to his/her country and planning to commit terrorism with evil black rifles.

    Sounds farfetched? Not for those of you who are LEOs or have worked in the field. Know how easy it is to write speeding tickets? I never have, but know quite a few ambitious types who have. Just check out a radar or lidar set and sit by the road. There’s no need to even turn it on. Who do you think the traffic court judge will believe, a sworn LEO or an alledged speeder?

    Consider the possible consequences before you do anything rash, such as signing stuff you may regret later or bring unwanted attention to yourself.

  10. Fruitbat44 Says:

    I do hang out on a more liberal, or should that be more “liberal,” board than this one and I suspect that the reaction among some “Blue Staters” to a “Red State” succeeding would be “Good riddance!” 🙁

    Funnily enough, some of the conspiracy theories floating around here do rather remind me of some of the conspiracy theories floating around there back during the Bush administration.

    As to whether succession is a ‘good’ idea, well I’m reminded of Aesop’s fable of the . . . well actually I was going quote one, but I’ve a feeling that the fable I was going to quote might not actually exsist, so:

    United = Stand; Divided = Fall.

    PS Sorry if I end up posting two very similar posts to this thread; an earlier draft of this post, apparently, got lost in cyberspace.

  11. Drake Says:

    By the way, for me, at least, this isn’t just dissatisfaction with Obama, it’s anger at the entire system, Republicans, Democrats, and all.

  12. 5minutes Says:

    @Winston Smith:

    ” Of course those who don’t want secession would say “it’s illegal”. But that’s so completely irrelevant.”

    It’s not about whether I want secession or not. It’s about the fact that some states have anti-secession clauses written into their state constitutions. North Carolina, for instance, contains Article 1, Section 4, which reads as follows:

    Sec. 4. Secession prohibited.
    This State shall ever remain a member of the American Union; the people thereof are part of the American nation; there is no right on the part of this State to secede; and all attempts, from whatever source or upon whatever pretext, to dissolve this Union or to sever this Nation, shall be resisted with the whole power of the State.

  13. Noah Vaile Says:

    Secession isn’t a realistic option, refer to 1865 for that one. It won’t even be necessary.

    The nation will tear itself apart from the bottom up, violence in the streets a la Greece and Europe as we finally, completely, run out of money for entitlements.

    This administration is collapsing our business community (which is the economic engine for the nation) and destroying jobs as it undermines the military and it alienates and abandons our long time allies. Isolation and poverty as gifts from the government is our future.

    Say goodbye. We’re on the way out….

  14. Matt Says:

    Secession ISN’T “surrender” – as every additional signature on a secession petition strategically weakens Washington by warning the foreign lenders propping it up by financing its huge deficit spending that they just might not get repaid and that risk cannot be discounted.

  15. David Keough Says:

    The above poster does have point. In that, I’ve always felt, a divided country will fall. We have the progessives in our learning institutions, and in our media. Things will change only only when put forth our efforts.

    I feel many of you have made some great points, while I feel an armed society is necessary. A fully ingaged society of people in our nation, coming together as never before, people to demand more say, as to what’s happening in our nation.

    To me, will pose more of a threat to our government. We as a nation, must demand more of ourselfs. As a Christian nation lets stand up.

  16. Doc Martin Says:

    City of Austin files counter-petition to secede from Texas

    Finally, a rational responds to all this madness.

  17. RonS Says:

    I hope the DNC is smart enough not to push their agenda to extremes. I have to say that if they do I might have to consider the meaning of an oath I took in 1972.

    The only problem is, can anyone think of a revolution/civil war where the nation involved came out better off? Our individual freedoms were badly eroded by the first American Civil War and a lot of the race and class hate we have now comes from the horrible bungling by the politicians in the aftermath.

    I don’t see any good side to having one, but I do believe that having that option in the room, if not formally on the table, is a positive thing.

  18. Paul Edwards Says:

    @ TOM606

    If your want to find just such an example of Government misuse of their authority, and gross mistreatment of citizen’s rights, you can go back to the 1970s, beginning with the infamous Collinsville raids by the BATF, and local law enforcement officers, as task force type operation.

    They, among other things, tried to raid a house of a suspected drug and arms dealer, however, they actually managed to kick in the door of the home next to the one cited in their search warrant.

    In this non-involved home, lived a man and his wife, who’s name was Ballew, as I recall.

    Being awoken, in the middle of the night, by what appeared to black clad home invaders, the husband was reported to have tried to resist/attack these invading officers, who promptly shot him, for his attempts to protect himself, his wife, and his castle from such an unannounced and unwarranted intrusion.

    His only means of this defense turned out to be an old Colt cap and ball percussion revolver, whether an antique or replica, I don’t know.

    Of course, he was charged, tried and convicted of what ever charges they decided to trump up against him, and his wife was threaten with the same type of punishment, to discourage the husband from claiming that he was illegally attacked, by mistake, and suffered paralyzing wounds at the hands this task force, who were desperately trying to cover their asses, after a monumental screw up.

    As I recall, the BATF blamed it all on the untrained, and unprofessional local officers.

    So, this is nothing new, and has little, or nothing, to do with Obama, or his re-election to office, even though that, in and of itself, will most likely be a total disaster, and put the finishing touches on our once proud and great nation.

  19. Marko Says:

    Generally, i agree with the TX sentiment, even though their state’s balance sheet is not as good as that of WY or even some liberal states such as CT, for example.

    I think there is a better way coming though through the financial sector, which will finally enable the citizenry to defund the welfare state, including first and foremost the corporate/military-industrial-complex welfare.

    I think it will come in the form of peer2peer digital cryptographic-currencies, such as Bitcoin, its clones, and whatever successors it will have.

    The European Central Bank recently published an extensive research paper on such currencies, and admitted that they could bring some significant fiscal changes, when such currencies become more pervasive, and that they will not be easy to shut down due to their distributed, worldwide nature.

    The private, gold-backed digital currencies, such as e-dinar and pecunix, which are somewhat out of the reach might also be minor players in that change.

    It seems much more efficient and less destructive to accomplish what the secessionist want, through fiscal means that these new tools provide.

  20. Tom606 Says:

    Paul Edwards:

    I recall reading this case in the newspaper many years ago, before I joined the first of two police departments I have worked for, and had my eyes opened as to what one can get away with while wearing a badge.

    The victim husband in this case had an unloaded black powder handgun of some sort that he pickd up in an attempt to scare off what he thought were home invaders.

    There have been numerous cases of police raiding the wrong house or address and have nearly always blamed their mistakes on incorrect information provided by unnamed “informants”, which may be true in some of the incidents, but probably not all. I have seen police supervisors order people arrested without probable cause (PC), then think up some charges later. In my case, I quit my last LEO job when my sergeant ordered me to arrest an alledged DUI driver who I didn’t see in his crashed vehicle. I knew the guy was guilty, but according to the law, I could not arrest him since I didn’t see him driving the car or exit it. Most police officers I have worked with were good folks, but they are a number of them who would do anything to get ahead, even illegal stuff. As my last sergeant always told me, “you need to get with the program”, but since I took an oath to serve and protect, and uphold the U.S. Constitution (which I still abide by as a private citizen), I could not go with their ‘program’.

  21. Drake Says:

    To 5minutes, I know for a fact that several state constitutions (including my own state of NC) did not prohibit secession originally, but were altered by a puppet legislature at gunpoint after the War. I hardly consider that a legitimate clause. Virginia, in fact, explicitly reserved the right to secede, until it was changed, once again at Yankee gunpoint.

    Secession is always an option. Abe Lincoln himself stated as much, years before he went mad with power and made himself a temporary dictator. Even removing states from the equation, the people themselves may form their own nation. Without this right, there is literally NO WAY to peacefully resist if nullification and voting do not work. To declare that secession is not an inherent right is to defy all logic.

    Besides, our first war for Independence was a war of secession, was it not?

  22. Paul Edwards Says:


    I too, in my 36 with the military (Korea to Nam), and in Federal law enforcement, have seen what you relate, and more.

    The thing with BATF, however, is that they started this back in the 1970s, and have continued it, right through to the present day.

    So, just because we have seen this, and it is on-going in many cases, are you saying this type of abuse is”Okay”, or “That nothing should be done about it”, or “We shouldn’t try to get it changed”, or the “Ends justifies the Means”?

    The difference seems to be that you gave up and “Quit”, with good reasons I will add, whereas I managed to avoid being pushed into those circumstances, and finally “Beat them at their own game”, and managed to eventually retire without allowing that to befall me, or allow it to taint my attitude, thinking or career.

    Anyway, from one EX-LEO to another, “Don’t let the bastards grind you down”.

  23. Boudreaux Sackett Says:


    I’m afraid you’re all too close to the truth. Those folks that signed the secession petitions only managed to make O’bama’s kill list.

    Before secession could even advance in the political realm, we’ll see this nation desolve after “the Anointed One” and ‘the Bernanke” have run our currency permanently into the ditch.

    Look for an acceleration into the dollar’s demise starting 1/1/13 when the BRICS’ trade treaties go into effect.

  24. pall Says:

    petitions matter not

    all things move towards their end

    the federal government is doomed

    secession or collapse

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