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Massad Ayoob on Guns

Want to Comment on a blog post? Look for and click on the blue No Comments or # Comments at the end of each post.



Massad Ayoob

SOBERING KNOWLEDGE FROM COPS

Wednesday, April 27th, 2011

The week before last, I attended and taught at the annual conference of ILEETA, the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. Despite the economy, the event drew some 725 police trainers from around the country and several other nations, even though a huge number had to subsidize their attendance out of their own pockets.

It is a horrible year for police line of duty deaths.  This past weekend alone, at least three cops in different parts of the US were murdered in the line of duty. Much of the emphasis of this year’s training was on Officer Safety and Survival.

The general consensus of police, military, and national intelligence is that it’s only a matter of time before this nation experiences an incident reminiscent of Beslan or Mumbai: armed, trained, committed terrorists massacring the innocent with automatic weapons and explosives. My old friend Jeff Chudwin, Chief of Police in Olympia Fields, Illinois and one of the nation’s leading authorities on such things, gave a compelling presentation on the topic.

At a time when we need more, better-trained and -equipped cops than ever, we’re seeing police layoffs, hiring freezes, and budget cuts.  Many of the presenters addressed how to deliver quality training with less money for equipment, ammunition, and pay for officers attending.

For the private citizen, what all this is saying is to be prepared for disaster. Remember Hurricane Katrina, just six short years ago.  In a nation where there are only about 800,000 cops to serve an estimated 320,000,000 citizens, it’s absolutely true that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

On a personal note, I shot the annual ILEETA Cup pistol match, sponsored by Meggitt, providers of excellent high-tech training simulators. We had close to fifty seasoned instructors and master shooters in the running, including Chris Cerino, finalist on last year’s “Top Shot” TV show. It was a challenging Meggitt course that represented targets as far away as about fifty yards, some of them moving, on the computer-run event.  I had the good fortune to win it, proving the old adage that even a blind squirrel finds an occasional acorn. With only time to shoot four matches in the first four months of this year, I was grateful for the outcome…but more grateful for the chance to recharge my batteries with the spirit of commitment my 725 brothers and sisters brought to the ILEETA conference.

Jeff Chudwin warns that it’s only a matter of time before Beslan and Mumbai scenarios are acted out in the USA by enemies of our country.

Jeff Chudwin

Ron Borsch’s research shows that mass murders in the US are generally ended by private citizens (sometimes armed, often not) or by single, first responding police officers.

Ron Borsch

2011 ILEETA Cup pistol shooting award. From left, Jimmy McCoy of Meggit LE Training Section, Jimmy Smith of ILEETA, Mas, and ILEETA executive director Harvey Hedden.

ILEETA Cup

117 Responses to “SOBERING KNOWLEDGE FROM COPS”

  1. Matt Says:

    “The general consensus of police, military, and national intelligence is that it’s only a matter of time before this nation experiences an incident reminiscent of Beslan or Mumbai: armed, trained, committed terrorists massacring the innocent with automatic weapons and explosives.”

    I’d say VASTLY more likely is an exponential-level expansion of what’s *now* happening – large numbers of unconnected *individual* habitual criminals, lacking ideological motivation but no longer bought off into reasonable good behavior as the economy collapses, taking it out on the first authority figure they can!
    You see a common pattern in the incidents in the past 12 months in which someone shot one or more officers: long criminal record, no ideology or even pretense of an ideology driving their actions – and all taking place in an economy in which any convicted felon like these guys has essentially zero chance at a decent job that would keep him stable and on the path to a decent future.

  2. SurvivalAndProsperity.com Says:

    Saw the HBO documentary “Terror In Mumbai” a while back, which not only discussed the event in detail but featured exclusive audio tapes of the intercepted phone calls between the terrorists and their handlers back in Pakistan, along with an interview of the lone surviving gunman. I would recommend this to anyone who wants an idea of what it must have been like to be at ground zero that day. Or perhaps Chief Chudwin knows of an even better resource.

  3. Richard Says:

    The way that the law enforcement in the US of A have been acting in the past number of years , THEY will be the target not citizens

  4. Neverhappenhere Says:

    Considering that these people have operators here already and are almost openly operational in South America, I’d say they have both a plan and a timetable.

    But it’s alright, dear leader and his friends will save us! Right after he consults with the Bushes regarding ignoring what intelligence we do have. But then maybe I’m being too harsh. Maybe that information never reached them…. Which is a whole new set of problems.

  5. Duke_Digger Says:

    quote:”For the private citizen, what all this is saying is to be prepared for disaster. Remember Hurricane Katrina, just six short years ago.”

    Lest we forget; it was the POLICE going door to door disarming those same private citizens.

    As an ex leo, I just do not see the reason for the elitism that I see.

    This “us” vs “them” needs a better definition!

  6. .45StayAlive Says:

    Given the extreme shortages of police officers, budget crises and the fact that we are facing grave terrorist threats, why aren’t more efforts made to create and recruit for Reserve Officer programs? Most municipalities don’t even have Reserve forces, and of those that do, they sure don’t go out of their way to encourage participation.

    It seems to me there are many men and women in their 30’s, 40’s and beyond who feel compelled to “give back” a bit and volunteer in various ways for their community. Imagine how police presence could be expanded by establishing Reserve programs in all police forces. Not only would on-duty forces be increased, but “off-duty” officer numbers could be doubled, or even tripled.

    What are your thoughts Mas?

  7. Bill Says:

    I think the police trainers are paranoid and looking for ways to expand their reach and power, I don;t believe their rantings for a minute.

    I also agree with Richard, the way the police have been treating the people the last several years is inexcusable. I am all for laying off more police, we don’t need them and they have proven themselves to be more of an occupying army than the protectors of the innocent they claim to be. Sad that they have turned out this way, I used to respect the police and I no longer do.

  8. Mike Says:

    Sir,

    I really hope you can use your influence in the Law Enforcement circles to bring cops back to what they should be.

    We the people are getting angry with Cops who are above the Law.

  9. Dave Says:

    When I read, “Remember Hurricane Katrina, just six short years ago” memories flashed through my head of an old American woman being brutally disarmed by a California Highway Patrol officer who volunteered his services for the storm. The illegal confiscation of hundred personal firearms by the National Guardsmen and local LEO’s from American citizens that even today have not all been all accounted for. The murders of the American people on the bridge by police officers, who just last month they were finally convicted of.

    No, Mr. Ayoob, I am not proud of the police officers we have today. I am fearful of them which is not the way we should live in America. They are armed to max like SWAT teams and almost totally militarized in appearance and mannerisms. Law enforcement needs a total overhaul starting with the BATFE and the TSA.

  10. LeChat Says:

    Considering the behavior of the police during Kartrina, they are the last I would look to for protection.

  11. George Says:

    I agree that a small arms attack is a likely tactic we will face. Especially as standard active shooter doctrine has our LEOs entering situations piecemeal at least until they realize they are not dealing with the average active shooter.

    Congrats on your win in the match Mas!

  12. Tom Walls Says:

    Another Beslan, or Mumbai ? You know it’ll happen, every Sheepdog does. But the concept is too much for the sheep to warp their heads around so they protect themselves from the inevitable by denying it can happen .

    And few of the bureaucrats who hold the staffing and training budget purse-strings are sheepdogs…

  13. Marc-Wi Says:

    Congrats on the win , Mas. Yes ,I too think it’s only a mater of time before TSHTF. I saw on the news (fox of course, as the rest think all is well) more terrorist crap is being found along the border much like you blogged about almost a year ago. I would hope the admin is preparing but I fear they have their heads in the sand.

  14. Miles Littlefield Says:

    True enough! Here in the southwest (New Mexico and Arizona) it can be more like hours, not minutes! Distances between even small towns can be 50 miles or more of uninhabited open space. Self-reliance is the ONLY option!

    As far as winning the cup and the “blind squirrel” comment, I don’t buy that for a second! One day, when you are REALLY old, you may go blind and then the luck story might work. But for now, those of us who know you would use the Waylon Jenning adage: “old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill!”

  15. Evan Weldon Says:

    As Richard said above, there have been so many cops videoed in the last year, beating down civilians who had already surrendered, beating down unarmed people, retarded men ( like the one in LA who was doing nothing but standing on a corner ) beating down the girl in an Atlanta restaurant the other day, after slapping her across the face – examples abound, including the one where the cop shot the black man in the back after he had already been subdued and cuffed on a train platform = the internet shows hundreds of these events. SO -most citizens are more in danger of harm from power crazed cops than derka derka tangoes.
    And these are not isolated incidents. So if TSHTF and the police need help, do you think that citizens who have watched them assaulting people on a whim, are likely to come to their aid? Anyone in law enforcement should remember that every time one of them does some sadistic SS type exhibition, that adds another hundred people to the list of those who do not trust or respect the whole profession.
    If the cops want their good reputation back, then instead of closing ranks and protecting the sadists, they need to get them out of the profession.

  16. Kent Says:

    Maybe these same Peace… Law Enforcement Officers, should start, as loudly as they can, advocating open and concealed carry without a permission slip from the government? After all, who should know better than anyone else that our “gun laws” have not and do not prevent criminals from carrying and using guns. And in a worse case scenario as mentioned in the article, those gun laws will not hinder terrorists from committing such an event. But you can rest assured, that the citizens who are caught up in it, will not have the means to protect themselves in such scenario and will be nothing more than sheep at a slaughter.

    Of course, when we hear of police officers and Chiefs talking about getting guns off the streets and tougher gun laws … you get the sense that they could care less whether or not citizens would be killed, unarmed, in such an event.

  17. jk Says:

    “The general consensus of police, military, and national intelligence is that it’s only a matter of time before this nation experiences an incident reminiscent of Beslan or Mumbai: armed, trained, committed terrorists massacring the innocent with automatic weapons and explosives.”

    Bovine Excrement! Unless they are refering to our own police and military as the aforementioned terrorists. Or perhaps they are refering to the actual citizens of this country once we finally decide to end the corruption and filth of our own government and rise up to replace it.

  18. Topherb Says:

    Sadly it seems that the consensus is “more cops”. The only person that can protect ME is me. I would hope the only cops getting killed are the ones who are no longer protected by the law due to their felonious actions. It is not to hard to check out youtube and see cops beating the public and usurping their “power”. The supreme court in all its stupidity has done the public a favor and ruled that cops have no duty to protect the public at large. The responsibility of police is one, to investigate crime, and two, arrest criminals. Fortunately this ruling is designed to tie the hands of the stazi, sorry I mean cops. A criminal is one who has enough evidence, in writing, emphasis on the in writing, to draw a warrant for their arrest. Did I mention in writing. To the criminal justice system that usually means a “warrant”. So in conclusion good luck on your criminal exploits. I have every intention to defend myself against corrupt cops. Please don’t forget that “ignorance” is not a legal defense.

  19. Jesse Says:

    More cops?

    Give me a break. With the present batch on the force these days I’d actually feel better with LESS cops. I can take responsibility for my own safety thank you.

    And the part about Katrina? As one comment mentioned the cops were the ones taking peoples firearms away, thank you so much.

  20. Patrice Stanton Says:

    I agree with many of the comments…’Katrina’ is a black-mark for ‘the police’ and about the worst ‘what-if’ example of recent years.

    But my question is: What kind of “year” – since it’s supposedly such a “horrible year” for police getting shot in the line of duty – for “us” innocents? How many of “us” have been shot &/or terrorized by identical cops in-the-line-of-no-knock-raid ‘duty’ (and other just-because-I-can power-wielding-duty)???

    Bet it’s more – but even if it’s not, seems to me when you go into a ‘line’ of work where it’s a given that you’ll deal with crime & hence criminals, the possibility of getting shot goes-with, yes?

  21. BillM Says:

    I expect that when such an event occurs, it will be in New York, of New Jersey or Illinois or some other state that has essentially disarmed the populous. If open carry were the law of the land, there would be no such attacks since it would be met with overwhelming force as such things are in Israel.

    Something to think about. According to the medicos, a man can remain conscious and active up to 45 seconds AFTER their heart has stopped. Imagine how much damage even one man with an AK could cause in the food court of a mall on a Saturday in that time frame. Now imagine a half dozen armed loonies (anybody who wants to spend eternity with 72 women is a nut case in my opinion) going through a crowded mall in one of the aforementioned states. With enough ammo, they could conceivably kill MORE people than the four teams of hijackers did on 9/11. Now imagine the same guys going active in a state where even a few carry openly or concealed.

  22. dsd Says:

    http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21004171567351/

    http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-judge-ordered-by-deputies-come-out-with-your-hands-up-120755199.html

    stories like this are what make me the most nervous – while i like and respect many officers in our local area – the increased militarization of law enforcment and an often proportionately similar increase of their disrespect for the everyday citizen is the most worrying thing.

    sure for an armed attack like a mumbai – yes we need swat style response and tactics- but now it seems they send out swat teams for elderly grandmothers running stop signs. for comparison – just watch the new orleans katrina disarming of the elderly woman in her own home. it is not a good trend…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

    if the police are not going to “police” themselves then i fear we will have runaway power and corruption in their ranks no different then we see in our congress and government in general.

  23. Mas Says:

    My goodness, the cop-haters seem to be out in force this week…

  24. Jeffersonian Says:

    “My goodness, the cop-haters seem to be out in force this week…”

    And *why* do you think people hate cops? Or do you even care what the “little people” think?

    Cops think what they’re doing to innocent citizens is *right*. They think the laws they unquestioningly enforce are legitimate. They think anyone they ever meet, under any circumstances, who is not a “brother in blue”, *must* be guilty of *something* if they can just find it.

    And if they can’t find it, they plant it, to excuse their actions.

    I’m far more afraid of police than of whatever they’re supposed to be “protecting” me from.

    Cops still think they’re the *good* guys. But we’re the ones who are “nuts”?

  25. Sarge Says:

    26 year full-time copper here. I’m just wondering how the Chief of a village of 5,000 folks becomes “one of the nation’s leading authorities” on mid-Asian terror and its long-term repercussions here in the states. This is not to say it can’t or won’t happen-or that we shouldn’t be prepared. My advice to private citizens on this topic, is that when you hear staccato gunfire, screams and revving engines- get your ass out of sight and behind something that will stop your deer rifle. Lay low until its over, unless you feel the pressing need to intervene against terrorists on behalf of the helpless. If you do, be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for that choice.

    My opinion is that the average reader of this blog, or the magazine which hosts it, is a lot more likely to get shot or stabbed by homegrown gansta wanna-bees. Of course the simple advice to ‘Stay The Hell Out of Thugville’ won’t sell any books or training tickets, so I suppose it is irrelevant to this discussion.

    As to the earlier comment that the police should be supporting permitless concealed carry- some of us have been doing just that for decades, not to mention giving a break to decent folks who would have picked up a Weapons charge- had we not believed in the literal wording of the Second Amendment.

  26. Roger in NC Says:

    Nice win Mas. Well done.

  27. Mike Sweeney Says:

    Sobering commentary, both your article and the responses.

    Congrats on your win, Mas.

    Mousegun Mike

  28. Grant Davis Says:

    Mas
    I have read your work for about 15 years, and appreciate your efforts at educating us.
    That said, lumping those of us who are becoming increasingly aware of the atrocities committed and the blue line of defense which protects the guilty, I don’t believe that calling names, cop-haters, is constructive. The daily list at this site
    http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com
    should sicken anyone, and stir a righteous indignation at the abuse going on daily.
    The abuse by the f troop which is currently being investigated by congress as Operation Gunwalker, Fast and Furious, shows even more disregard for individuals and honest gunshop owners.
    Mike Vanderbough at http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com
    has done a great job of exposing the criminal behavior of this group which believes it is above the law.
    The chief of police in the city of over 400,000 near where I live, is so corrupt that it is a pathetic standing joke.
    The first prohibition brought us a harvest of corruption in law enforcement, and the war on drugs has multiplied that corruption many times over. Trying to protect fools from self-destructive behavior and taxing me and taking my rights to accomplish that is a root cause of much of our corruption.
    Then again the PTB are encouraging a police state attitude, and the sheep have been so dumbed down that they will welcome it because it will promise them safety in place of responsibility.

  29. Shy Wolf Says:

    Mas, I’m sorry you think we’re cop haters when we make comments about how often the civilian populace has been beaten down, shot and railroaded or mal-accused by ‘wrong addresses’ and when decent civilians- especially legal CCW- are detained and treated like criminals for no reason other than ‘wrong place wrong time’ incidents.
    It isn’t that we hate police- we hate bad police and even more, we hate bad police actions.
    When car companies put commercials on Tv granduerizing (is that a word?) SWAT police to sell cars imported from Detroit… when real cops act like the ninnies on Tv police programs… when real cops shoot innocent women carrying children and are not prosecuted for it… when real cops shoot a housefull of innocent women and children and burn the evidence of their atrocity and are not prosecuted for it… it’s time to hate cops. Especially the bad cops as those in power who refuse to prosecute criminals who admit their crime, and give them positions of power in government because they’re friendly to the POS in the White House… when even the POS in the White House treats honest police officers like criminals and accuses them of showing poor judgment in doing their duty… when police chiefs show disdain and disregard for the Constitution… it’s beyond time to hate them.
    One day soon, the police are going to discover they are being bitten by the hand that feeds them.
    If this bothers you as a former police officer, I am sorry, but it’s the facts of life. You’ve always been one of my heroes in the gun world, and I am surprised you do not see how now common police actions are creating a maelstrom of problems for them. But those problems are of their own making so they have absolutely no reason to whine or bitch about it.
    Shy III

  30. Bret Says:

    I wouldn’t call these folks cop haters Mas.
    First time I called a policeman a cop when I was a kid my dad snatched a topknot on me and set me straight that they were policmen and looking out for all of us. Times change and the biggest gang in town ain’t afraid to let you know it. Any respect I have for law enforcement (ptooey) anymore is on a case by case basis. I can tell you from my experience there aren’t more than one in twenty-five (I’m being generous here) worthy of respect and they’re suspect for the company they keep.

    You’re just seeing John Q Public finally getting a gut full.

  31. Jon R. Says:

    # Mas Says:
    April 28th, 2011 at 9:08 pm

    My goodness, the cop-haters seem to be out in force this week…

    What do you expect? Justifiable fear is bound to induce hatred.

    Mas, I have always respected you as a firearms expert and teacher, but that is the lamest thing you have ever written.

    It is non responsive in the extreme. Are you seriously going to try to dismiss the real and documented concerns of the commenters above (and hundreds of thousands of their fellow citizens) regarding police behavior with such a flippant and dismissive remark?

    When you and your “brothers in blue” begin to honor your Oath of Office and start Protecting and Defending the Constitutions of your Nation and your States, and when you cease being the enforcers for power hungry tyrants in pin striped suits and black robes, you might once again claim the mantle of “Peace Officer” and lose the fear and loathing associated with that muscle of tyranny called “law” enforcement.

    But we aren’t holding our breath.

    Try to remember that you are civilians and Citizens first and that the Rights you trample are your own. This is your country and that is your Constitution as well. What kind of country do you want to leave to your children and grandchildren?

  32. Jon R. Says:

    My comment above begins at:

    What do you expect?

    To separate it from the quote from Mas’ comment.

  33. johnnyreb Says:

    Who hates cops?

    We hate bullies and sadists with badges.

  34. Brogan Says:

    Cop haters? No… people are just fed up being abused by those who are supposed to protect and serve. We are citizens not civilians. We have rights and when we challenge an officer’s authority, peacefully, we don’t want to be roughed up thrown in jail and be charged with assaulting an officer, resisting arrest and any number other charges that can be tagged on to teach us not to question authority or to stick up for our rights.

    Cops are now used as revenue collectors for the county and state. We don’t like getting tickets with large fines for the smallest infractions (cops don’t have ticket quotas… yeah right). We don’t like going to bed knowing that no knock warrants for petty crimes are being served by swat teams at 3 am often to the wrong address. We don’t like when said raid on the wrong house ends in the death of at the minimum the family dog and at worse of the frightened innocent home owner.

    When you are part of the club most of these things are foreign to you. When you don’t have the protection of a badge the world is a very different place. We are not cop haters, we hate what the cops have become…

    I like cops just fine, I just feel better when they are not around…
    ~BarFly

  35. RetiredOldMan Says:

    “My goodness, the cop-haters seem to be out in force this week…”
    Mas, My detector doesn’t really sense cop-haters in the postings. YouTube is full of bad acts and injusticeeverywhere.com has many cases everyday along with other sites. Video cams have brought many bad acts to public view. What I do detect is a public that is deeply frustrated that the many good cops are not cleaning the thugs and criminals out of their own ranks. I used to be a strong LE supporter and do anything in my power to help, but now I have to determine first if the LEO is a good guy or just another criminal with a badge.

  36. Mick Says:

    Mas, I have been reading your writings and listening/watching programs featuring you for years, and one thing is constant: honor. Honorable people command respect and desrve it. I do not “hate” cops; I fear too many of them. Pulled over on a lonely road on a dark night and told to get out of the car–no witnesses, no explanation, no nothing but a drawn M&P for simply driving home from work. I follow the rules, I am respectful, I was in my nursing uniform, as I am an Emergency Department nurse. Once the officer confirmed that fact all was well, but what if he hadn’t? What if I were not? I am around law enforcement officers frequently; I understand gallows humor; I shot PPC for 10 years so am not unaccustomed to “cop talk”, but it has gotten uglier the past 10-15 years. The “us vs. them”mentality is worse. And here in lovely Illinois it is a felony to film a cop; a gimme to Chicago PD? Times are a’changin’, sir.
    Respectfully, Mick

  37. hbbill Says:

    Mas says; “the cop haters seem to be out in force this week…”

    Are you saying any of the above comments do not at least have an element of truth and we should blindly trust the LEO’s? Notice that of late they have become Law enFORCEment Officers with the emphasis on the force instead of what used to be Peace Officers. There is a huge difference between the two. These days there is really little public trust in police type agencies by any other than those gullible enough live by the word of the state run media. The internet has opened a lot of eyes.

    You should check out David Codrea’s War on Guns blog for his take on what he refers to as the “only ones” as in “we (LEO’s) are the only ones that should be allowed to carry guns”. He provides a lengthy list of abuses. When only the police are armed it is called a police state.

    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/

    You also said; “Much of the emphasis of this year’s training was on Officer Safety and Survival”, and therein lies much of the problem outside of the us or them attitude. Check out this piece of work that was done in the name of officer (I feared for my life) safety.

    http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/27685803/detail.html

    Nor is it the only incident involving the same officer.

    http://www.khou.com/home/Man-sues-officer-city-of-Houston-over-alleged-police-brutality–120820424.html

    And then there is always this site from which the two incidents above are linked;

    http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

    You can’t deny that there has been increasing militarization of the police ever since that big shoot out in L.A. ten or twelve years ago. Increasing funding from the fed and the inclusion of mil surp equipment in those funding packages for police depts. has led to the creation of small armies in all major cities. It also makes the local LEO’s obligated to back up or provide the muscle for those federal no-knock warrants where pets are shot or kicked to death in the name of officer safety and sometimes children are injured. Let us not forget to include the increasing number of times they do this to the wrong address and some of the wrongful deaths that have occurred. Are the officers ever held accountable? If any are charged, the obligatory investigation ensues and the charges in most cases dropped. Also an influx of returning veterans has contributed to the increase in militaristic attitude as departments snap them up to augment their own departmental training. what kind of attitude do you think that brings to the situation?

    No sir, Mister Ayoob. It will take a long time and a committed reversal in behavior on the part of the LEO’s before the informed public will ever fully trust them again. They need to open ranks and take out the garbage first. THEN if the SHTF and they need help the law abiding citizens of this country might be willing to lend a hand, otherwise we will just sit within our “tribal” boundaries and watch it all go down. We will protect our own…you see, a lot of us HAVE been preparing as you mention. And then when the shooting stops and the bulk of the dying is done try to put things back together.

    While we’re at it….let’s take a serious look at that 800K figure you gave for the total number of officers in this country. How many of them are active in the field? What percent? We can subtract from the total any on disability and the desk chair warmers. How many have actually been in a gunfight? Not many I’d wager. They will be up against committed religious fanatics not to mention any gangs that will be seeking targets of opportunity many of whom will HAVE been in gunfights. If things are really bad, how many will stay the course? How many will seek to go and protect their families first as also happened during Katrina? That number is not looking so good now is it?

    You see…..the police need us a lot more than we need them.

  38. Evan Weldon Says:

    NO, Mas, just the people who have seen too much to pretend.
    Does pointing out the truth make us enemies of the state?
    Does a failure to elevate the brutes with badges to godlike status make everyone else in the nation a cop-hater? Be honest – for we all respect you immensely – if you could see unedited videos of not one, not ten, but over two hundred videos of (a) bus drivers, or (b) TSA employees, or (c) fast-food workers, beating the living hell out of citizens, or shooting them in the back while they are restrained, or groping their genitals, or kicking them in the head when they were already down – over and over, in state after state, city after city – would you be all happy and blissful to entrust the safety of your wife or daughter to anyone of those groups?
    If you watched cops intimidate and then disarm legally armed citizens after Katrina, actually stealing their firearms, leaving them vulnerable and defenseless for the still armed thugs and gangs, then did you see the military-garbed cops as protectors of the innocent? Be truthful with yourself.
    If you have a disaster in your AO and the cops come and demand every gun in your possession, will you smile as you hand them over?

    I can tell you that when I was a kid, we had ‘beat cops’ who got to know the people in their area, and they were trustworthy and honest. You would never see, or hear, of one beating a woman or shooting a cuffed man in the back as he lay on the ground; it was unheard of. But that was in the 50s. Now, I see so many bad, bullying cops that to find a good one is the exception, not the rule.
    Of course you are free to think that I – and everyone else posting here tonight – am a crank or a loon. But whatever your opinion, maybe you get treated differently than others because of who you are; still, when we, the common everyday citizens, are asked to trust the LEO community, they are going to have a LOT of horrible behavior to straighten out before they earn that trust again.
    With respect for you,
    EW

  39. ebd10 Says:

    Not hate, fear. Police today have been given more and more training in paramilitary tactics. They have also been given more and more training in subjects such as diversity and cultural sensitivity. What they lack is an understanding of the Constitution or, in some cases, the laws regarding ownership and carry of firearms in their own cities. Plus, it is well within the realm of possibility that, should some serious catastrophe take place, that the police will blindly follow unlawful and unconstitutional orders. It certainly did happen during the aftermath of Katrina.

    Things such as peer pressure and political pressure can be used to compel decent men to do horrible things. A good examination of this phenomenon is the book “Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland”. The men in Police Bn 101 were ordered to execute Jews. These were not slavering, wild-eyed, maniacs; quite to the contrary. They were clerks, shopkeepers, and factory workers that wanted to do their ‘patriotic duty’. Should we believe that our police officers are better men then those in 101? If so, why do things like the Danziger Bridge incident continue to occur? How are we to trust those who enforce the law when they are the same ones that break the law as in the Gunwalker scandal?

    If there is to be trust restored between law enforcement and civilians, there has to be more publicity given to people such as the aforementioned Ron Borsch who sees armed citizens as allies rather than simply more people to be disarmed in the interest of officer safety.

  40. Glenbo Says:

    Where I live on the Texas Gulf Coast, in Galveston County, we have some of the finest officers to ever wear a badge, who are overworked and underpaid, and hopefully appreciated for their service and sacrifice. Sadly, just across the bridge in the City of Galveston, there is a collection of the laziest, most selfish, and loudest whiners to ever disgrace a badge, who do little to enforce the law but complain every chance they get about the city management and police department management. Strange how the two different types can exist so closely together. And I’m glad I live in the County and no longer on Galveston Island.

  41. jdvier Says:

    I’ll bet that over half of the responses here are from people who have never put their butts on the line for the citizens of their locals. Yes there are bad cops as in any other profession. Any time there is a budget problem the politicians cut fire and law enforcement first. This makes the criminals more amd more brazen in their actions.
    If this keeps up then you will see vigalantes appear and alot of innocent people will be taken out.
    There are a very large group of retired LEOs and military that if pushed enough will react and defend this country.
    God bless the Republic.

  42. Chem Says:

    There are many instances of LEOs behaving badly and doing things they should not. But as a student of history (graduate level) things have improved A LOT as far as corruption and LE in America. Take 1933 when Federal Agents arrested a known organized crime figure in Hot Springs Arkansas. The agents had to drive long distances and dodge local LE roadblocks that would have freed their prisoner due tot he corruption of the time. When they finally arrived in KC to deliver the prisoner to Leavenworth, they were ambushed and in the ensuing seconds one agent was killed, as were two KC Police Officers. The Pendergast machine was so rampant then that the KCPD did not even investigate the murder of two of their own officers!

    While there is plenty to criticize in LE today it is far more transparent and professional than ever before.

  43. sofa Says:

    There has been terrorrism: Data is that more people killed and beaten by ‘enforcers’ every month than killed during 9/11- every month, for 10 years. Plenty of data on websights mentioned in comments above. The public statements consist of ‘overlords’ putting ignorant serfs in their place.

    They are my employees, and they have forgotten whom they serve.

    It’s long past the time to demand that ‘enforcers’ turn in their guns “For citizen safety”.
    Really.
    Every citizen’s first job is to come home at night to their family- And police are just going to have to accept ‘common sense’ disarmament during contacts with their EMPLOYERS. “For citizen Safety”.
    Really.

  44. Chem Says:

    Oh, there was also a question on how a small town police official becomes an expert on things like Belsan and Mumbai. Its called research. Read three or four books, read some official pubs on the matter from the nations in question, see a seminar or two and including reading time you have over 40 hours of study on the matter, know more than anyone else in your area about the issue. That is called an expert for a LEO who has a job to do. To get much higher you need to travel to the sites, and really have to be a well resourced reasearcher/historian/etc.

  45. Oathkeeper Says:

    I am a police officer as well as a firearms/tactics instructor for my department. I hold numerous certifications in training as well as SWAT. All that is good and fine. The most important aspect of my LEO credentials, though, is that I took the oath to defend and uphold the both the US and the Texas Constitutions. (Yes, I am part of that fringe, subversive group known as Oathkeepers…) I too am disgusted by the behavior of many officers that abuse the public they are supposed to be serving. I’ve seen the videos both you tube as well as a few from my own department. All I have to say is this: Fellow citizens, please understand that the police do not have a legal obligation to protect you and your family. That is actual case law from the a number of states as well as the US Supreme Court. Also understand that YOU are the ones your police department is accountable to. Make your voice heard loud and clear on how you expect your officers to act. The police are the tip of the spear that governments at all levels use to enforce their will. You have got to be the driving force to direct that spear appropriately at real criminal behavior, not letting it stick the innocent, law abiding citizens. Lastly understand that you are the final line in the sand in the stand against government and/or foreign tyranny. Prepare and train accordingly. God bless.

  46. Oldone Says:

    Its ok to hate the cops, we have come to expect it. 27 years wearing a badge has taught me a few things.
    People love you when they need you and hate you when they don’t.
    You never hear of or see video of cops done a good job, only the bad stuff makes the press.
    We all get painted with a broad brush, when the feds screw up it must be the local beat cops fault too.
    When your doing your job and looking for bad guys and happen to check out someone that turns out not to be a bad guy, you’re an idiot that should be out looking for bad guys.
    Despite the criminal element becoming better armed, more sophisticated, and better equipped, people still want the police to be armed with 1950’s weapons and equipment. And yell and scream that we are militarizing when we try to join the 21st century level of equipment and armament.
    So if you don’t like us, don’t call us when your world goes to hell, dialing 911 is optional. That’ll free us up to respond to someone that appreciates the fact that we are willing to be cut, stabbed, shot, on their behalf.

  47. Long Island Mike Says:

    Cop haters? Hmmmm…..I believe that all the governing entities of the world are feeling these days the wrath of the Internet. People simply have the means these days to express themselves more effectively than ever. “Incidents aren’t isolated like they were when I was a kid to just the neighborhood. The bullying man in blue who everyone feared for his irrational violent behavior. Now it gets recorded and posted on Youtube. No excuses any more. The reaction is to make it illegal to record them. Hmmm…that sure helps public relations doesn’t it.

    “Cops” have earned the reputation they have. If they want to be perceived differently then change your behavior and vet your ranks. Cops “own” the behavior of the ATF. They own the behavior of seizure law enforcement. They own the SWAT killings of innocent homeowners. They own the molestations of TSA. It goes on and on and “cops” don’t stand up and protest. They remain silent and by being silent they’ve taken sides.

  48. Bob K Says:

    Yes, Chudwin and others are right, a Mumbai in the US is overdue. By many accounts, overdue for decades. And you can be assured if/when it occurs it will be in a State/City/Location that has significant gun control, excuse me, citizen disarmament laws in place. The enemy will be looking for the easiest and least restrictive (to them, not us.) target possible with the ‘biggest bang for the buck’. I’m thankful not to live in a highly restricted locale. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen here, it just means I’ve got a fightin’ chance if it does. YMMV

  49. Freedomlover Says:

    Any police officer that has sworn to uphold the Constitution and then tramples upon it is not worthy of any respect. All enemies foreign and domestic includes the dirtbag politicians in New Orleans. All enemies include fellow police officers that confiscate at gunpoint that which is constitutionally protected. Either you are with us (the free citizens) or you are with those that trample the Constitution. If you trample then I pray you become trampled. If you defend freedom then I pray you stay free.

  50. Aix Sponsa Says:

    Congratulations on the win.
    80% of the people do not believe that anything significant will happen in the USA.
    It’s the last 4 days of the month again. Flashing blue lights are everywhere. It is so obvious it is pathetic. Ya, I know. The cops just want to say HI and get acquainted with the public.

  51. Tim from CO Says:

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and be the minority. Maybe I’ve been lucky to have only interacted with good Officers. But personally, I think as a whole, Police Officers are a good bunch.

    I don’t believe anyone is a saint or perfect, Police Officers included. Yes, there have been some bad people with badges. Hurricane Katrina comes to mind. I’m well aware of others incidents too. But I would never lump all the Officers up together as a bad bunch.

    For example, I really doubt the BART shooting someone mentioned was an execution. I’m of the opinion it was a horrible case of body alarm response coupled with insufficient training. If I was on the jury, I’d only the City and Chief responsible for failing to provide sufficient training to Officers.

    On that note, I’m of the opinion quite a few Police Officers are pro-gun and pro-CCW. Their appointed Cheif, however, I suspect is usually NOT. And it’s the Chief’s position that we hear on the news etc. So thank your elected officials when you get an anti-gun Chief in your city.

    Ever notice how Sheriffs tend to be more openly pro-gun?

    So for myself, Police Officers are good in my book until proven otherwise. Sure there are some bad ones but thankfully, I’ve never had to deal with them.

    The other thing I keep in mind is any Officer I may interact with will probably be nervous and under stress. So I’m going to do everything I can to put them at ease. Furthermore, I don’t go to stupid places, hang out with stupid people, or do stupid things. I feel this approach will help ensure a favorable outcome with any Officer.

  52. ETA Says:

    The militaristic stature and action by current LEO’s is simply more efficient law enforcement dictated by today’s collapsing economy. What we really are experiencing is the judge, jury and executioner model….something in use in third world countries for years now. A three for one model that saves the courts and prisons untold expenses. We are headed for the China model where the family gets a spent cartridge case together with a bill for the round used to terminate the life of the youth that was caught stealing a loaf of bread for his hungry family. Of course, the state and it’s minions fingering the pie get to keep the proceeds from the sale of body parts. No doubt future training will focus on termination of the offending citizen with a focus of lethal force while minimizing collateral damage to valuable “sweet breads” for the body trade. Instead of future drug rip-offs from unsuspecting dealers, we may see harvest squads that instigate lethal confrontations of unsuspecting citizens. This will be the full circle of man to primitive survival in the street jungle. However, as the authorities resort to ever more cruel tactics to feed their survival, they need to be reminded of the lesson the japanese learned in a most painful end…beware the arousal of the sleeping giant…the American people are the most heavily armed nation on earth.

  53. Country_Mike Says:

    Here is what I want from cops:
    1. Leave me alone.
    2. Get your butt out to help me when I call 911.

    ps I don’t call 911

  54. hbbill Says:

    Gotta ask you Mas……….with all of the replies to your “cop haters” remark, do these sound like your typical lawbreakers……..gangsta’s…….thugs that in the normal course of their criminal lives would have reason to hate cops? No! They sound like ordinary law abiding citizens that have been given ample reason to fear the Thin Blue Line.

    Do you have a reply to all of this now?

  55. dsd Says:

    “Mas Says:
    April 28th, 2011 at 9:08 pm
    My goodness, the cop-haters seem to be out in force this week…”

    wow, mas

    that hurt. my dad was a cop. my grandfather a fireman.

    when for the first time in over twenty years i was pulled over for speeding (speed drop from 45 to 35 in about two hundred feet where they sit right after the second sign – but was totally my mistake) – i was smiling, friendly and i even give the respect of calling officers ‘sir’ (i don’t call anyone sir) so, i gladly handed my concealed permit along with my license (even though it is not a legal obligation to do so where i live)

    the cop who was probably in his early thirties visibly started to shake and instantly put his hand on his gun. i really though he may shoot me. the next 30 minutes were surreal – as i was treated like a criminal, disarmed etc… i then had to stand outside of my vehicle as he put the firearm on the back seat of the passenger side of my vehicle and i was told i had to wait until he drove away before i could retrieve my firearm and get back in my car.

    the next time should there be one – i won’t offer my ccw permit – why would i?

    i read the news every day. there are stories of officers being arrested for corruption, owning grow houses, stealing drugs or prescription medications at houses or crime scenes etc…

    do you not read the news mas? did you read that first link i included about the judge on easter sunday? all that for a reported break in? (and they went to the wrong address)

    are you really blinded by your prejudices that you can’t see these daily stories?

    to see you jump to the conclusion that readers of your blog are “cop haters” shows just the kind of jump to conclusion disrespect that i also mentioned.

    in fact i posted my comment before reading any of the other comments and i almost did not submit comment as i was afraid of being the one person to post about such concerns – only after i hit post did i read the comments and wow, i never expected to see so many in agreement with me – actually if i had read the comments first i may not have even posted as it was pretty much said already.

    i think you owe your many readers an apology for your comment.

  56. Neverhappenhere Says:

    It isn’t the militarization of the police that needs to be feared. That is incidental to the threats that face an officer who may very well face terrorists.

    What is to be feared is that of the selection process and training of new officers and the re-training of some of the old. I speak from hands on experience.

    It’s gone from the “us and them” attitude to the “only us, there are no friendlies” attitude. The Constitution and Bill of Rights aren’t even a thought in the minds of many anymore and obviously it isn’t taught very well at the academies nor supported by legal staff.

    This is a guaranteed no win situation for officers. They will find themselves universally hated and badly out numbered. I that situation the good that there is, will die with the bad. Figuratively and literally.

  57. Al in NC Says:

    Let’s see if I understand this correctly. Law enforcement officers across this country are being trained that Christians, gun owners, CCW holders, home schoolers, libertarians, constitutionalists, etc. are all potential terrorists. And, because of the threat of outside terrorism, and presumably by these internal “terrorists” we need more of these trained officers. I think not. In general, we have been very supportive of law enforcement over the years, but until law enforcement demonstrates that they can effectively police their own, on a local as well as a federal level, the last thing we need is more officers trained to view citizens as the enemy.

  58. Mark Matis Says:

    Many of the posters above have hit the nail squarely on its head. The oath is “…preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution…” Unfortunately, MANY have spit on that oath and now make Mafia Enforcers look noble in comparison. And the “good” cops? How many of them are NOT merely playing Sergeant Schutlz with his “I see nothing”? The stench is overwhelming.

  59. bontai Joe Says:

    Mas, I’ve been reading your articles for over 20 years, bought a couple of your books, and respect you for what you know about self defense and for what you have done over the years appearing in court in self defence cases. But I don’t have a blanket respect for LEOs anymore. I’ve seen too much of the “Us vs, Them” attitude where “us” is the police and “them” seems to be everyone else in the community. I don’t see mush of the old “serve and protect” attitude, just a cowboy mindset of hunting bad guys everywhere and too bad if other folks get in the way. In the rural area where I live, I’ve experienced 45 minute responce times when I have had to call for police assistance. And I’d say about 2/3rd’s of the officers I have met in the last 20 years are true professionals, and the other third? They are the ones that worry me, guys that have WAY too much ego for their own good and for the safety of the community. The kind that will kick your dog, stomp your cat, and warn you that if you complain, you will get the same treatment.

  60. wow! Says:

    Mas are you a member of the oathkeepers? Can you promise us you will respect the constitution? I have read all these comment and I feel a couple of emotions. I feel anger and relief. Anger that there are cops out there who don’t consider their fellow citizens their allies but as a collective bunch of “slimy civilians” who need to be “put and kept in their place”. Anger that police chiefs would accept military gear for their dept.’s knowing that it could be used against fellow citizens. And I feel relief that so many people are waking up to the fact that the police have turned into an “Army of Occupation”. Relief that the last country on earth that has a chance to turn back the tide of global statism IS ARMED TO THE TEETH! Mas we have enough cops in this country in the form of armed citizens. And finally some advice for everyone END THE WAR ON [people who use] DRUGS! This will save 100 billion plus a year and will stop the corruption and violence.

  61. Ohiosapper Says:

    What!!! We need better equipment for cops, for what, to use against us that’s what.

    I know there are good OathKeeping cops and they do not deserve to be lumped in with the bad ones but how do we know the difference, so we lump them.

  62. Dan G, Erie County, Pennsylvania Says:

    I’m not a fan of American law enforcement. Today they are no less than para-military stooges representing the government at all levels. Cops today are no less than thugs who use the “gun of government” to persecute law-abiding citizens.

    I have little respect for these body-armored, automatic weapon armed pieces of illegal authority who ignore the law and lie on a regular basis. My personal experience with law enforcement is that it’s “them against us”.

    The United States today has more assholes wearing a badge, per capita, than any other civilized country on the face of the earth. When the SHTF I consider the guy with a badge the enemy of the people. It’s his job to maintain the status quo of government. Not the rule of law.

  63. Carl Bussjaeger Says:

    Mr. Ayoob, I’ve written about your remarks. In the interest of fairness, I wanted to let you know. You can read it here:

    http://carlbussjaeger.blogspot.com/2011/04/massad-ayoob-my-goodness-cop-haters.html

  64. Vince D Says:

    Mas,

    When we go back to having Peace Officers and not “police officers” maybe the respect level will improve.

    Too many laws, too many idiots with a badge and a pencil, and too much distain for those they serve has led to the served finally getting fed up with the servers.

    Vince

  65. Ian K Says:

    Wow, just, wow.

    If ever there was a larger supply of “good-old-days”/”to hell in a hand-basket” fallacies, I certainly haven’t seen it.

    Too many here have taken obviously biased et al media coverage to prove the inherent dishonesty and malfeasance of LEOs, only to take umbrage when told what it is they’re doing.

    The police force is more transparent, better self-investigated and in many ways better equipped with both equipment and skills to best serve us than ever before. Corruption and the like are down pretty damn close to across the board. If anything Mas and those like him are the reason this is true. So it’s no surprise that they are none to pleased to have worked so hard to make their already vastly improved profession even better only to be spat on as incompetent and corrupt.

    Some here point to the internet as a powerful force for people to voice themselves, which, if anything, is reason to question the messages and conclusions you receive more than ever. The vastness of the information available in no way makes it accurate or comprehensive. By all means, question police authority, that exactly is most likely what fueled it’s improvement. But to do so without questioning everything else is to defeat the purpose of logic itself.

    The criticisms voiced here are in many cases heavily dismissive of the good law enforcement does us on a daily basis, in the spirit of fairness, you ought to expect your criticisms to be dealt with dismissively in return.

    Far too many people these days are getting infuriated and offended over what is ultimately an annoyance, throwing the baby out with the bathwater and ignoring whole swaths of the other side’s opinion, only to complain that those they disagree with are doing to same.

    Bad shit happens, we’re all human and there just isn’t any way we’re going to achieve the perfection some here so vehemently demand. If that’s what you really want, then more training, better equipment and a cessation to LE budget cuts as well as specialist units like SWAT are the very things that will move us closer to it, why stand in their way over the unfortunate minority, the very thing these measures seek to address?

  66. James Robertson Says:

    Tim from CO,

    I’m with you. I seem to have only encountered good cops. Are there bad ones? SURE. It’s a position that almost begs for some power-hungry personalities willing to put up with crap in order to stay there, if the local system is such that they can get their way and get away with it. But it’s like that with OTHER professions and positions as well.

    The funny thing is that its the sticky wheel that gets the grease, and an especially LOUD sticky wheel makes the problem sound even bigger than it is.

    The sticky wheel here is bad cops, and the internet and Lame-Stream Media are the biggest, most powerful amplifier you could find.

    Personally, I’m PROUD of the cops in my locality, the surrounding areas and our county deputies. They take alot of crap from alot of lowlives (several of whom are their direct employers…. ie, the mayor of the city of Phoenix, or the Chairwoman of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors…. snakes BOTH of them), yet give us their service and at times their lives.

    The police brutality which HAS been exposed IS shameful, but what we’re losing here is the context and perspective. I HIGHLY doubt the problem as as widespread or as pervasive as the haters of freedom and prosperity in the MSM or the chicken littles of YouTube want you to believe. Just because their post count is high and they can form coherent sentences (granted, that is becoming more and more of a rarity in most comment sections, though) does NOT mean that they are giving you reliable information.

    I’ll judge the quality of the man wearing the badge by his own merit, not automatically judge him unworthy just because some of his fellow officers elsewhere have disgraced their badge and their oath.

    ~James from Phoenix

  67. Groundhog Says:

    Given the optimism expressed in all of the above comments and the state of the nation as a whole, things sure ain’t looking good.

    Mas, I read you regularly. You’re post and comments are lighting up the bloggosphere tonight. Given where you publish and your general audience, I find it hard to believe you attract a normal following of “cop haters”. I’m going to be keenly watching for your reasoned response to all this.

  68. Evan Weldon Says:

    OldOne said –
    “So if you don’t like us, don’t call us when your world goes to hell, dialing 911 is optional. That’ll free us up to respond to someone that appreciates the fact that we are willing to be cut, stabbed, shot, on their behalf.”

    That is actually a good idea – because calling 911 in the five states that I have lived in, has never had any response for neighbors being robbed until long after the action was over. An armed citizen defends his home and family, and IF someone shows up after a 911 call to shuffle papers, well and good. But they are as likely to arrest the defender for shooting a bad guy. So yeah, stay away and we will handle it on the scene, not after homeowners are all bled out.

    Oh and the whining about the MSM – the posts out there of cops behaving badly are NOT from the MSM or anyone with some agenda… the fact that video is now accessible and mobile means that a lot of ordinary citizens can now document the Gestapo tactics – it is no longer just ‘he said / she said’ when you can see it with your own eyes. If you have been blessed to only have contact with good cops, that’s great. The rest of us will do a happy happy dance for you. But for the majority of citizens, we know now that we are pretty much on our own. Waco – feds; Katrina – locals and outsider LEOs. If any true ‘peace officers’ read this and wonder ( instead of just shifting into Defense Mode One ) just why people have such low opinions of the law these days, look with your own eyes.

  69. Peakbagger Says:

    Respect is a two-way street. I expect to be treated by citizens, private and public sector workers, LEOs and even politicians in a manner similarly to the way I treat them. My expectations have been taking a bruising for the last decade. Mistakes and misunderstandings happen but real men will admit their mistakes and make amends for them.

    Recently I saw on the local news that a small-statured, poor, inebriated Indian woodcarver was shot by a young, inexperienced and adrenalized police officer in downtown Seattle. I think to myself what would I have done if I were in that situation? Thirty-seven years ago my country trusted an eighteen year old me to serve as an MP and deal with knuckleheads, drunks and criminals in the army. There were a number of times I was the only officer to respond to a situation which I believed I wasn’t ready to handle by myself. Because of the trust given to me by my superiors and mostly by luck I learned, OJT, to use my wits and de-escalate instead of escalating most of the situations I responded to.

    Three years as an MP doesn’t give me the experience to lecture any Officer on how to do their job but fifty-five years of living gives me enough life experience to judge whether do care is being used by others in dealing with me. I see mine and my countrymen’s God given rights degraded and reduced every day by people driven only by their desire for power. I believe that I’m guilty for this intolerable situation because I’ve let it happen and have not fought hard enough to protect them.

    Is there any point to my disjointed paragraphs? Respect is a two way street.

  70. Shy Wolf Says:

    Wow, Mas- there’s a can of worms opened that every LEO in the country should read right here.
    If they could see how non-LEO feel about their rights under the Constitution, under local law enforcement, under the government, mayhap then there’d be a lot fewer ‘incidents’ going on in this country than there are.
    It’s been noted that even the SCA has said LEOs have no responsibility to prevent a crime or to protect us as citizens. Then it stands to reason we citizens have a right to protect ourselves (delineated by the Second Amendment, among others- such as the Fourth and Tenth) and LEO should have no problem with when we DO defend ourselves. But they do, especially county LEO, at least in my area.
    Also, it was noted that ‘we just want police to leave us alone- we’ll call when we need help’. Which is the way it should be. We don’t need police sticking their noses into every aspect of our lives or shooting our dogs because some neighbor was bothered by its barking. Nor do we need LEO bursting thru our doors at o-dark-thirty for a drug bust- and have the wrong addy. Nor do we need LEO doing background checks because we want to carry a weapon to defend ourselve or others, or to buy a long gun- Freedoms under our Constitution.
    Most LEO commentors have made it clear they aren’t the problem- of course they’re going to defend their turf- it’s proven every day when police officers recieve paid vacations during ‘internal investigations’ that prove nothing, though it’s been recorded on camera- and shown on YouTube or elsewhere- that accused officer is in the wrong.
    And what of the LEOs who accost photographers and bystanders with video cameras rolling, claiming they have a ‘right to not be videod’, and take said camera from a citizen? There’s a website ‘Photography Is Not A Crime” that shows hundreds of incidents daily where LEO confiscate, or attempt to, cameras from honest citizens because the video may show them not ‘going by the book’.
    I don’t blame the LEO for wanting to protect their own- but that is much a part of the problem, along with the police unions- they can’t police themselves, and neither can we civilians, as has been suggested.
    Where does a civilian go to tell a LEO what their job function should be? How they should operate or prepare? There is none and to suggest a JQPublic can make suggestions how to train police is ludicrous.
    As to police officers having military grade weapons, body armor, et al- I have no problem with that. Except that I’m not allowed the same grade weapons because I’m not a LEO or military. When the citizens have fewer rights than the LEO or politician, then there’s a problem.
    In all, perhaps you and other LEO and former LEO trainers can begin some seminars on what the Constitution REALLY means when it says ‘shall not be infringed’. In the meantime, maybe a few will read this column of yours and see just where they stand- and most of them do not stand with JQPublic or the Constitution.
    Shy III

  71. dsd Says:

    READ THESE 3 LINKS – see what is out there mas.

    http://www.wesh.com/news/26465580/detail.html

    this is just one case in particular that is getting deeper and deeper – and this is just one of the maybe dozen in the central florida area the past couple months.

    it seems now multiple officers knew about it, lied about it, conspired to cover it up etc…

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/crime/os-windermere-chief-dan-saylor-discov20110427,0,5121018.story

    http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/april/238257/Former-Windermere-police-chief-Saylor-denies-hes-a-dirty-cop-in-new-documents

    here’s a more recent quote that is comical considering the depth of the case – he covers up his friends rape of a girl under 12 and this is his response…

    “”If you guys are looking at me, I’m not a criminal,” Saylor said. “I’m a freaking cop. I’m a chief of police. I’ve been a cop a long time, you guys.”

    “The nearly 1,000 pages of records also include new allegations of misconduct against Saylor, including the recovery of a diamond tennis bracelet stolen from police evidence, ticket fixing and questions about his relationships with influential Windermere residents.”

    no officers say anything because the fear for their job is their biggest concern – care not for the victim, not the constitution, not the law, not the people… where were the law abiding cops policing their own? where are all the good cops who said nothing? just us “cop haters” out there being haters for no reason right mas?

    i can post a bunch of these stories for you mas, if you’ve missed them… considering you were just in that area shooting at GSSF – i might have thought you may have heard about it.

    i don’t try to prejudge, as i said i know many nice, honorable officers, but all it takes is one to ruin your day – as in forever life altering… honestly if a criminal attacked you in some way you could in theory defend yourself – if that criminal had a badge then you better just kiss your ass goodbye as you’d be branded a “cop hater” or worse – even if the cop was the true criminal.

    unfortunately, you’ve shown how that is a pre-programed response with your own comment… so what good is truth or the law in that case – you’re guilty by default.

  72. jimmyb Says:

    Mas, I see you as the epitome of a law enforcement professional, (as a Peace Officer) but sadly there are many officers in my area that are far from that. There are no less than six local jurisdictions in my immediate area that are known as speed traps that, as another poster noted, it is almost not possible to pass thru without the threat of harrassment over minor equipment violations that four years ago would have resulted in a warning, now will generate a hefty fine. It is the difference in being a Peace Officer, and a Law Enforcement Officer. I see the difference as simple as the old Mayberry RFD show. Andy was a Peace Officer at heart, ruled by common sense and law, and Barney Fife as the classic Law Enforcement Officer. Thanks for all you do to show others how a professional should interact with the public.

  73. Chem Says:

    I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. If you go on the internet and expect to not get offended you are going to be sadly mistaken. The similarities between any people who frequent this website (as bloggers or readers) are much bigger than the differences.

    Mas has stepped on plenty of LE toes over the years, called out bad LE Leadership more than a few times. As a matter of fact he has done it in court against the FBI as I recall, which is a hell of a lot more than most have done to call out poor practices in American LE.

    Just because he supports his profession, that will always have some sort of place even in the most libertarian possible society (at least one that will work), doesn’t make him horrific. Are those taking umbrage living in a cave that you cant stand a single sentence comment that may or may not, be some form of criticism of your comment? So you are going to blow up at someone who is closer to your way of thinking that 99% of the people in this nation that are paid to write for a living?

    I love being a liberty minded person, but we, as a group have to be eternally vigilant of our achiles heal which is spending all our time arguing amongst ourselves. Perhaps we can take an example from the fact that Mas and Claire coexist on this page. How about that Claire writes for SWAT magazine? Why dont we jump on her for writing for a magazine that “glorifies the militarization of LE?”

  74. wow Says:

    mas – welcome to your zumbo moment.

  75. dsd Says:

    SWAT magazine is probably the best magazine out there – i do not see it glorifying anything about abuses against citizens.

    in fact the article “Enemy at the Gates” is the first thing i read in that magazine and it is one of the few magazines that would dare even publish anything like that in our spiraling down PC world.

    perhaps mas should read that one article more closely each issue and focus some classes and talks on the subject of “peace officer” rather then “enforcement officer”

    until our government, elected officials and those charged with enforcing the laws of our country are held to and judged by the exact same laws and standards as we citizens – we are on our way to the end.

  76. Golem Says:

    “As a matter of fact he has done it in court against the FBI as I recall, which is a hell of a lot more than most have done to call out poor practices in American LE.”

    Which precisely illustrates one of the many problems with American LE.

  77. Woody Says:

    Chem said:

    “How about that Claire writes for SWAT magazine? Why dont we jump on her for writing for a magazine that “glorifies the militarization of LE?”

    As I understand it, Claire’s job at SWAT is to be the contrary voice. The opposition as it were. Her job is to point out to SWAT readers where she thinks they have missed the boat, logically or philosophically. She does for SWAT what commenters on this thread are doing right now. What’s not to like about that?

  78. Dave Says:

    If you think that the police were kinder and gentler 50 to 100 years ago you are sadly delusional. It was kick @ss and take names, lead filled leather saps were the up close and personal “attitude adjusters” of the day. Cops work for dollars $50 to $100 a month and corruption was the standard of the day.

    In the 1950s when the Mob was running Galveston to the core. The Sheriff ordered the draw bridge to be put up so that the Federal agents were delayed getting on to the island. This allowed time to hide gambling equipment.

    Get out of line and you would be beat up.

    There are bad officers out there, but the one in Atlanta a few days ago was not one them, at least not in that case. The officer was trying to arrest one of the girl’s friends when she decided to hit the officer. Being a police officer doesn’t mean you have to take a beating before you take action and most of the times taking quick action, what appears to be brutal to someone who has never performed the job, is better. Try going into a crowd of fifty plus people who have been drinking and are now starting to get into the “mob” mentality and arrest just one in a kind and gentle way. The outcome will be worse in the long run.

    The “gentleman” who was shot in the neck by the HPD officer has a criminal history of theft and resisting arrest. The news doesn’t mention that in the article, but past behavior is telling of future behavior.

    Most officers know the Constitution and do protect and uphold it, but they also know many of the court cases that interpret the laws that are set forth by the Federal and State Governments. Pick any criminal case that goes before the Supreme Court or a Criminal Court of Appeals and look at all the footnotes. There will be dozens of cases that are referenced and guess what? If the officer is not at least vaguely familiar with these cases not only will his case will be for nothing, it may set precedence for future cases.

    Of 800,000 officers in the US maybe 1%, or 8,000, are bad. That is pretty much the norm for most professions. Some will be caught some won’t. Do I wish they could all be removed? Yes, but I know what is realistic and what is not.

    Bobby Kennedy once said: “Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on.”

    For those of you who have complained about the police, “What have you personally done to improve the law enforcement in your community?”

    For those who support the police, “What have you personally done to improve the law enforcement in your community?”

    We can always improve.

    As for the original topic of being prepared for terrorist actions such as Beslan or Mumbai. Law Enforcement, with few exceptions are not prepared. Chief’s are political animals and the majority have a “it won’t happen here” attitude. Why do you think that a number of the trainers had to pay their own way to the conference? Administrators put training about dead last in their budget and it is one of the first things to get cut.

    So what can you do? Be prepared, but not paranoid, the odds of YOU being involved in a terrorist incident is small, it still could happen. It will most likely be a splinter group or the so called “lone wolf” terrorist. al-Qaida is very aware of the reaction of the US to attacks on US soil. They lost two host counties to their attack on 9/11/2001. Instead look for attacks outside the US that will drag us into disputes that are costly and really give us nothing in return, think Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Best wishes,

    Dave

  79. CorbinKale Says:

    Mas,

    You have provided decades of quality training and good advice, but your comment,”My goodness, the cop-haters seem to be out in force this week…”, in response to documented grievances, complaints and concerns from the sovreign in this nation, does you no credit. We are concerned citizens, who see rapidly increasing separation between LEOs and those who suffer their enforcement. We don’t hate cops. If we did, we wouldn’t bother to warn them that they are screwing up, as a profession.

    I believe the solution is a return to the basics. Every officer takes an Oath to the Constitution, our Supreme Law. It is impossible to support and defend a thing, without knowing what that thing is, so a good first step is to read the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the concurrent writing of the Founders. That will provide a base of knowledge for understanding the Constitution and the Oath. That will enable an Officer to honor their Oath and understand their DUTY to refuse to obey, or enforce, unconstitutional laws.

    I saw an Officer post above, Sarge, who understands this concept. If other Officers would follow his lead, this ‘us vs them’ nightmare would evaporate. Oath Keepers has many police, military and first responders, both current and prior service, who are devoted to this cause. Check them out at oathkeepers.org.

  80. Tim from CO Says:

    I hope any Officers reading the comments posted saw James’ post and mine.

    Some of us here do appreciate and respect Officers.

    When my wife and I see Officers, we smile and wave to them. And sadly, they usually look uneasy. Kind of says something doesn’t it? They’re not used to that…

    If people are going to complain about Officers, they should take their complaints to the department. It’s the department that makes the decisions on training and procedures. Blame the department for worrying more about liability than interacting with CCW-holders. Blame the City for not spending more on firearms training and tactics.

    Sure there are some people who shouldn’t be wearing a badge. But it’s every profession. There are quite a few people who shouldn’t have the letters M.D. after their name too. I’ve even seen some people who shouldn’t have a CCW permit either.

    To trust what you see on the media? Just because you saw a video of an incident doesn’t mean you saw the whole situation. Would anyone here have convicted the Otero county deputy because of a video? I wouldn’t have.

    But, hey, if we’re going to trust the media, I have some super deadly armor piecing Talons for sale.

    Thanks Mas for all your hard-work, and thank you to all the sworn Officers out there.

  81. Kent Says:

    Mas,

    Like me, you are old enough to see the line that our former Peace Officers have crossed.

    Sarge,

    Yes, there are cops out there who will turn a blind eye if you are carrying without a permission slip. I know a Lt. in a Sheriffs Dept. who will do that … yet … even he admits, that even though he will do that it most cases, there are a thousand to his one who will not.

  82. Mark Says:

    My Friends human nature remains the same as it also was whether you wear a police uniform or not. There are police officers who do a wonderful job. The problem however is corruption in our society. Let us look at a more extreme example. In Mexico many police and military are working hand in hand with the drug cartels. Do not think for a minute that there are not police and politicians in this country that are a part of this. Our politicians are supposed to be elected to serve the people, but it is the people that are serving them. Money unfortunately talks, and with people being on the take they become more self serving than people serving. Police Officers do not always have an easy job, and many times they are getting it from all sides. The growing mistrust of institutional authority is pervading our society because of our corruption in high places. This is also being reinforced by some bad police officers and departments which over shadow any good ones that are out there. The love of money truly is the root of all evil. Finally there are those who abuse there authority because they to are caught up into this culture of me first instead of the people I am supposed to serve. If I was a police officer I would be on guard all the time so I could go home to my family each night. The respect of the authority of good police officers has been eroded and the corruption in our society has enabled this. The corruption has also emboldened criminals against authority and the sanctity of human life.

  83. James Robertson Says:

    “To trust what you see on the media? Just because you saw a video of an incident doesn’t mean you saw the whole situation. Would anyone here have convicted the Otero county deputy because of a video? I wouldn’t have.”

    Exactly. Video can be edited without inserting falsifying information in and still tell a different story than what actually occured. Because often what can change from “proper” to perceived “inappropriate” is just removing footage of “extraneous” events.

    People will naturally perceive that only what is shown in the video is all the context needed. That’s the whole basis for soundbites, the “stupid” pictures of GW Bush (which are actually just pictures taken mid-mouth-movement when talking normally…. any of us would look like idiots if time were flash-frozen the moment our mouths were forming some sounds), movie previews, and “that just sounds wrong. response: you weren’t there to hear the rest of it” type conversations.

    Just leave out the context and you end up with “police brutality.” Put the context back in and put yourself in the cop’s shoes and maybe you’ll have a different perspective. Maybe you’ll still disagree with the action taken, but can still understand how a rational, decent, constitutionally-abiding LEO would still in that split-second window he’s given to evaluate and choose a response, choose to do what he did.

    Have a care, people. I have a healthy distrust of governmental authority, but I do NOT let that translate into denigration of cops individually. Sadly, from the context of reading these posts, I do not get the same kind of impression from y’all.

    I am indeed hoping Mas responds in some way to all of this beyond the one line. I expect that it’s going to be lengthy enough that it warrants a blog post, but only after he’s had sufficient time to gather his thoughts and research data.

    My respect to Mas goes to him not because he’s an authority (I don’t subscribe to the “Argument from authority” method of logic from ANYONE save God Almighty), but rather because he does his homework and thoughtfully puts his position together. And for that he is an authority.

    I suggest everyone have a care and wait patiently for his response.

    Geeze, I’m the young guy here (I’m a few years away from 30 still) and I’m the one calling for patience, remembering the days when we didn’t have instant 24/7, twitter-made news bites and journalists and writers actually had a bit of time to get things well written.

    Shouldn’t it be all you older men who are expecting that instead of comment upon comment demanding Mas to answer now?

    *exasperate sigh*

    ~James from Phoenix

  84. Savaship Says:

    “Would anyone here have convicted the Otero county deputy because of a video? I wouldn’t have.”

    Interesting point… how many of us “little people” would be convicted of high crimes on LESS than video evidence if the situation arose?

    Why is hearsay by a badge enough to convict a citizen, but video evidence is not enough to convict a badge? How come in court if a Badge says you did something, and you say that you didn’t, the Badge’s word is worth more? The whole system is stacked against a citizen, and in favor of Law Enforcement. If you think that kind of power isn’t abused, you don’t know your history.

    My general feeling is that Law Enforcement Officials would have a better year if they stopped committing 4th amendment violating acts like breaking in people’s doors, and creating violent stop and searches on our roadways. This type of violence breeds hatred, which results in a lack of respect for the lives of Law enforcement. I don’t agree with having a lack of respect for anyone’s life, but I have met dozens of LEO’s that haven’t respected my life, even a few willing to point a gun to my head while I was unarmed and causing no fuss.

    That and other kinds of lack of respect for my life was sobering enough for me to move far into the country. My short hypothesis is that although it is tragic, and those specific Policemen shot in the line of duty might have been good people, the police in this country as a whole have been working hard to earn the disdain of the people, and I hope that instead of “better equipping” themselves they read the constitution, and decide to keep their oath, just like the oathkeepers.

    When the people are treated as a whole with Liberty and Justice the officers will have little to fear… but when Justice is replaced with a tyrannical rule of law, the outcome will not be good.

  85. RetiredOldMan Says:

    “Mas, I read you regularly. You’re post and comments are lighting up the bloggosphere tonight. Given where you publish and your general audience, I find it hard to believe you attract a normal following of “cop haters”.”

    Mas, I also eagerly read anything you write, especially AG & CH magazines. You do a great job. Most (but not all by any means) of my interaction with LE has been good or OK. But even a LE friend in a nearby city has admitted that too many of his fellow LEs are not Christians and do not behave as such.
    A small nearby city recently got it’s 1st SWAT that was in no way needed. Soon, comments from the mouths of the SWATs own members belied the over-aggressive nature of their attitude. I suspect, all too soon, that we will see an incident of someone being un-necessarily killed.
    I have a friend that teaches at a community college that offers trade courses including law enforcement certification. The “very conservative, value oriented” professor interacts with these students and tells that the classes are full up with a long waiting list. He describes that “in general” the LE students are the dregs of society with inferiority complexes that desire authority and importance. How do you train the “bad attitude” out of people?
    I hope that all of this gets better before it gets worse, but I greaty fear for our liberty that we should hold so dear.
    Mas, your comment 10 yrs ago would probably have brought little reaction. The ability to intime upload video has brought lots of changes. Thank goodness for the Oathkeepers.
    Wish you well.

  86. Joe Says:

    “At a time when we need more, better-trained and -equipped cops than ever, we’re seeing police layoffs, hiring freezes, and budget cuts. Many of the presenters addressed how to deliver quality training with less money for equipment, ammunition, and pay for officers attending.”
    That’s okay, they can just ramp up the asset forfeiture and traffic cameras to steal more money from the people of their communities. Don’t get me wrong, I realize that most cops are probably decent people (most of the officers I’ve encountered in the past were courteous), but the fact that the increasing numbers of abuses and violence by police officers against innocent people have, in general, no consequences leaves me without respect for the profession. If I were to see a cop in a gun fight with someone, I would have to wonder who the bad guy in the situation was. I’m not afraid of the criminals, because I’m allowed to defend myself against them. And I’m getting pretty tired of cops and government beating the terrorism drum – it’s just another excuse to diminish our rights. We’re all more likely to be terrorized (shot/beaten/kidnapped) by the police than someone from half way around the world.

  87. Tim from CO Says:

    @James- 100% agree with you. Too many people see a video clip and take that has the whole incident. The one that comes to mind was the one that set Los Angeles ablaze…literally.

    @Savaship- A bit out of context but let’s run with it.

    Honestly, I think citizens have an easier time compared to most Police (not counting Federal because we’ve seen how easy some agencies can get off the hook…).

    Sure, Police may have their department’s support and the FOP as well. But it seems like an Officer involved shooting gets a lot more attention and politics involved than an ordinary citizen. Also, if I had to attend a state or federally funded vacation. I’d much rather enter as a loner than an Officer. At least then I wouldn’t have any professional acquaintances there.

    If citizens actually did have a harder time with the legal system, there are sure a lot of parolees roaming around still…

    As for the Constitution, if anything elected officials need to be informed about that document first. Some of the people in the Whitehouse and Supreme Count come to mind…

    On the subject of “corruption”, I am thankful for the Officers like Sarge. Surprisingly there are quite a few in California. I used to know some people who carried due to crime and were let off by understanding Officers.

  88. jb12k Says:

    I too was raised to respect the police officer. However,in recent times, I see all the incidents posted above, and agree something has to be done! I think many folks miss this point. If you are a good and responsible officer, that’s great! BUT if you see your brother officer committing a crime, and do not treat him just like any other criminal, then you have just become another part of the problem, as well as a CRIMINAL yourself ! It may be “US against THEM”, but it should be the LAWFUL against the CRIMINAL, NOT COPS against CIVILIANS! If you cannot understand that BAD COPS are ruining your reputation with the public, and make an effort to root them out, how can you ever expect the public to RESPECT you? If you cannot clean up your own house, why would you think we would TRUST you to police us fairly? Just because he/she is your buddy/partner officer does not make their actions legal/right when it is not legal/right for the public! I have to say that I respect the ideals of the”Oathkeepers”, and cannot understand any officer or official who will not take their oath and keep it! It is like those who won’t do not want to commit themselves to HONEST CONSTITUTIONAL BEHAVIOUR!

  89. Mark Harrison Says:

    Mas.

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t hate cops. I just don’t trust them. They have incredible power, and are taught to demand obedience and submission from everyone with whom they deal. Getting them involved in your life is a mistake.

    I liken cops to rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes are an integral part of the ecosystem. They eat rodents that spread disease when they become too populated. They contribute venom to research operations for the creation of new medical treatments. They’re neat creatures in themselves. Regardless, you give rattlesnakes a wide berth. You don’t play with them, bring them home to your house, or allow friends and family to get anywhere near them. If one is living near your house, you move it along to a place where it won’t cause trouble. You maintain a distance live and let live attitude.

    I personally work hard to never catch the attention of police. When I do have to interact, I make it quick, and say as little as possible. I keep them far away from my world, and work hard to keep it that way.

  90. Mark Harrison Says:

    How to avoid catching the attention of the police when carrying.

    http://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/articles/2144601-Dealing-with-citizens-legally-carrying-a-concealed-weapon/

  91. Golem Says:

    Mark wrote: “My Friends human nature remains the same as it also was whether you wear a police uniform or not.”

    Yes. Power corrupts.

    And the job attracts people who love to exercise power (it’s not authority, which is a moral right of command) over others. Most cops love being able to tell other people what to do . . . or else. And they’ll never admit it. Most of them truly cannot admit it even to themselves. If you’ve ever seen a real barrel of apples, one bad apple does, in fact, ruin the barrel. And the barrel of “law enforcement” itself, in the real world, tends toward the creation of bad apples from people who were originally “good apples.”

  92. Savaship Says:

    Thanks for your reply Tim from CO,

    “Honestly, I think citizens have an easier time compared to most Police” -Tim from CO

    I would like to cite some examples from my area to back up my point if you’ll indulge me.

    Case 1: Jerry Hobbs from Zion IL, was beaten into confessing he killed his daughter and kept in jail for 5 years awaiting trial. He has been released because Virginia actually FOUND the real killer, and his DNA matched. Those cops that beat Hobbs will NEVER face criminal charges because the prosecutor will NOT prosecute them. Instead there’s a civil suit.

    If you, or I had beaten someone into a confession, or just beaten someone in general, I know I would be in jail.

    Case 2: John Killackey, Chicago Cop who was out drinking, pulled a gun on his cab driver when the cabbie wanted to collect his fare. He got sentenced to a misdemeanor 60 hours of community service and 18 months supervision, and KEPT HIS JOB.

    If a citizen in Chicago did that who wasn’t a cop, here is the list of charges you would face:

    2 counts of “Aggravated unlawful use of a weapon” Class 3, and Class 1 felony
    1 count of “Armed Violence” Class X felony
    1 count of “Theft” Class A misdemeanor
    1 count “Aggravated Assault” (with use of a firearm) Class 4 Felony

    Case 3: Steven Epps, a police officer who was stalking his ex girlfriend. Her new boyfriend, Matt Kohnen visited her for the evening, and Steven Epps decided to fax Matt’s work, and claim Matt was driving the van recklessly in order to try to get Matt’s address. Matt’s work was too smart, and worked with Matt to start an investigation. This went up the Illinois State Police Public Integrity Unit, but the prosecutor in charge refused to prosecute. The chief, and ISP had nothing more they could do… so the chief fired Epps… who then Sued the city, and got his job back, then managed to get the chief kicked out.

    If I had gone to this level of corruption we would be in jail on various fraud charges.

    Case 4: Bomako Walton of Roodhouse, IL… Had some pot on him, so Police literally broke his face. The officers were never charged.

    if I broke someone’s face because they had pot… you can imagine the legal battles I would have ahead.

    Case 5: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-police-beating-weis-investigation-105228793.html

    Those police officers were never charged with any crime.

    I have dozens more examples, but I think you get the picture, you would be hard pressed to find numerous examples of police officers getting an equal or greater sentence than a citizen in the court of law.

    As for your parolees… most of them shouldn’t have been in jail in the first place, as this country jails more than 3 Million people PER YEAR for victimless, non-violent crimes, so the evidence presented of the number of parolees has nothing to do with actual crimes, or how hard our legal system is on citizens vs cops, and is irrelevant.

    I hope to see more people put actual research into this, I believe they will come to the same conclusion as me: that there is no Justice, only Law.

  93. dsd Says:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html

    http://www.wbaltv.com/r/17049195/detail.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html

    how many of YOU would like to be on the receiving end of such an accident? it is completely unnecessary… what kind of crime should attract such a violent response? yet someone sending a box to your house without you even knowing can get you killed very easily. what if you heard the door being kicked in and grabbed something to defend yourself with not knowing who was breaking in? (even if you picked up a frying pan etc – you’d be dead is what)

    it is becoming increasingly common for criminals now to approach a house and say they are police or undercover officers in their attempts to get inside… if you refused to open the door now you would be assumed to be guilty. (good luck living that one down in court if you do in fact live through it)

    i can’t seem to find it now – but in the original news reports of this swat team and mayor incident – it was ONLY when one of the swat members recognized who the mayor was did he start to call them off and he said he PURPOSEFULLY stayed with the mayor until everyone and everything had calmed down because he was afraid that an “accident” may have occurred if he left his side – as in a swat member may have shot the mayor to prevent his side of the story being told and then fabricate that he pulled a weapon or attacked them etc… THIS WAS ONE OF THE SWAT TEAMS OWN ADMISSIONS OF THE EVENT

    all i keep hearing is how every officer is afraid for their life – hey i get it – the world is getting crazier and more violent – but private citizens can be afraid for their life as well – both from the criminals and lately the responding officers… all i can say is the same for any job or profession – if you are so afraid of performing your job duties then it is time to GO GET A DIFFERENT JOB – it does not give the police open season on private citizens because they are afraid all the time.

  94. Golem Says:

    Savaship, Oh, don’t forget Detective “Yes, I pulled out my pistol, because I got hit with snowballs” Baylor, in D.C. a couple years back. Dozens of people were having a snowball fight in the city, playfully called “Snowmageddon,” during the large snowball fight. Some guy’s Hummer gets hit by a couple of snowballs. Some guy gets out and immediately pulls out a Glock. The police are called, and actually says, “Who’s the guy?” When pointed out, he actually says: “I can’t arrest him. He’s a police officer.” Of course, if it were anyone else, he probably would have been shot, and charged with brandishing, and probably thrown in prison for a few other felonies. (It is D.C.) So brave Detective Baylor got a short paid vacation while the incident was “investigated by internal investigations.” In other words, until it blew over. So he’s still a cop, still living high on the hog. See, it’s OK for cops to break the law.

    Mr. Ayoob, these situations and THOUSANDS like them are merely some of the reasons why people don’t trust cops. There are plenty of other reasons. Like the fact that most of you have no problem using violence against [arresting] someone who is peaceably carrying a firearm, just because he doesn’t have a State permission slip. Or for possessing certain vegetation without a State permission slip. (And no, I don’t use any drugs besides OTC medicines. I just think it’s wrong to use the threat of violence against someone for committing ANY act which does not directly violate the life, liberty or property of others. Cops have no such moral qualms. 90% of them will enforce any statute they’re told to. Case in point: Katrina. They know who butters their bread.

  95. dsd Says:

    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/index_1.html

    for history sake and the comment about how brutal police were 50 year ago – lets all remember the texas bell tower shooting.

    the shooter charles whitman climbed to the observation deck of the university of texas bell tower and starts randomly shooting anybody he sees. let’s not forget as well he was an ex marine – so all this “us vs them” of the military or police vs the citizen is really a complete illusion. it is the good vs the bad always.

    it was police officers AND armed civilians who responded and kept the shooter pinned down until a team of officers could ascend the tower and end the rampage for good.

    this was not long ago – yet officers TRUSTED their fellow citizen – now we all get lumped in with the enemy – we all get treated as if we are some crazy person on a shooting rampage… how fair is that? not much different then calling everyone a cop hater – you can see right there the problem with attitudes even from one of the most ardent defenders of the armed citizen.

    everyone should do yourself a favor read this story and see how it can be when the police respect the citizens and they can work together. if there was a mumbai incident today – i would be petrified of using my firearm in self defense even if it was to defend mine or my families life should i need to – because i could be gunned down and probably retroactively fabricated to have been one of the armed mumbai assassins by whatever law enforcement who arrived on the scene assuming anyone with a gun is a bad guy.

    now if i felt i could help and benefit our local law enforcement in a situation like that i would be more then grateful to assist them if the need arose (after all most cops are only rudimentary shooters compared to many armed civilians who shoot frequently and are often far better shots then the average officer that only shoots to qualify and keep the paychecks coming)

    mas, we are not cop haters. maybe this latest blog posting of yours will be a turning point and with your respected position in both the civilian and the law enforcement world you can help bring the two closer together again.

  96. Mark Matis Says:

    For Savaship:

    Look up Black’s Law Dictionary and “testilying” to understand what is REALLY going on. Just how bad does it have to be before a Law Dictionary develops a term for it?

  97. Gus Says:

    I was always have respected Police Officers. It was the way my parents have brought me up. I know police officers have a shitty job. My best friends father was a Sergeant on our local force and I
    saw the toll it took on him serving the people of our town (Egging their house, keying his car, obscene and harassing telephone calls.
    nasty remarks to his wife and children.) My friends dad always
    said that “Being a cop is like being a Catholic priest; they dont know
    you until they need you.”

    But what am I supposed to think when I personally have witnessed the following within the last few years:
    – An off duty police officer at a cookout that has had a couple of drinks remarking: “There are only 3 types of people out there: cops,
    cop’s families and the rest of you”. We were shocked. When someone asked him about his remark he retorted: “You are all criminals, we just havent caught you yet!”
    – My barber who is a quiet 64 year old man who is worried sick because he was involved in an accident with an off duty officer who ran a stop sign. When he wanted to call the police to fill out a report the officer said: “Forget it if you know what’s good for you,
    me and my brother officers have long memories and you do have to drive through our town to get home.”
    – Two officers who were repeatedly slamming a handcuffed individual headfirst into the hood of the police car during a traffic stop” When the driver who was in front of me (a old grandmotherly woman) slowed down the 2 officers turned and screamed “What the f**k are you looking at? Get the f**k out of here!” When I drive by the officer yell at me: “Hey f**khead you didnt see anything either.”

    I’m not naive, but something just isnt right in this country anylonger.

  98. Rob R. Says:

    Wow, I had no idea there was this many liberal whackjobs reading such a wonderful author. You claim to not be a “cop-hater” and then bash the police, calling ALL of us names and saying we are ALL scum and corrupt. Fine, if that’s how you feel. I just hope and pray that one day there will be a call for help from you and then you look out of your broken windshield and see that man or woman in brown or blue coming to save your sorry ass. I pray that one day you are in a fight for your life and suddenly someone with a badge arrives and saves your sorry ass. I will always be proud to be the one that saves your sorry ass as you cuss at me and call me names. I’ll be happy to put myself between your sorry ass and harm as you spew epithets and curse me. Hate us all you want, we’ll still take the high road and save your sorry ass. Walk a mile in my shoes, you whiny bitches.

  99. Small town Illinois Says:

    Mas- what you write about is so true! I live in a small town in Illinois near where- just last year- a small group of Muslim radicals were apprehended. Yep, that’s right! Pretty much plucked right out of a cornfield. Who would have known they’d find Muslim terrorists here, where the only time people have towels on their heads is right after a hot shower!?! The most dangerous thing we deal with in this country is the mind set that bad things will “never happen here”. That sure was the thinking before 9/11- guess time has faded the memories of that day in many minds. Oh sure, there are bad cops a plenty, just like bad armed citizens. And like any big family we (cops vs. civilians) are always at odds until someone who’s NOT in the family butts in (aka: terrorists) then we come together to defend a ourselves. Didn’t anyone else notice the country come together after 9/11? We were ready to collectively kick some butt!!!
    Anyone who wants to condemn the police of Katrina needs only to step back and compare the actions of those local citizens to the actions of the Japanese citizens who face a much worse crisis presently. You DON’T see the Japanese behaving like those who live in New Orleans. They work together, stay calm, and hold self honor in high regard. They don’t have a mindset of waiting for handouts or “where’s mine?” The cops of Katrina, while their actions weren’t always right, had the same mindset as many commentors here- That crisis will never happen here. They weren’t prepared to handle such a crisis. But guess what- bad things can and DO happen EVERYWHERE. No one is exempt. It’s just a matter of time until something bad happens- natural catastrophe or terrorist bombing. Best to plan ahead and run through the scenarios and what-if’s than to be caught with our pants down like they were in Katrina and on 9/11. Kuddos for those “small town cops” for planning ahead! As for me- we have a great arsinal stored up either way.

  100. Mark Matis Says:

    Yeah, Rob R! You got that right. You with the Metropolitan Las Vegas Police Department, perchance? How many innocent civilians have YOU murdered today? The stench is overwhelming.

  101. Scott Parsons Says:

    Mass,

    I have been through LFI-I, II and III in Live Oak. I think that’s enough to say I’m not a nut job. You vetted me. That said, I have a simple point. I think cops need back off the paramilitary course they are taking. Put uniforms back on. Quit with the BDU’s. Start acting like what they are supposed to be. Police.

    Throw one of your best quotes back atcha buddy. When seconds count, they’ll be there in minutes. That’s the way I like it. That’s the way you like it.

    Should they approach every traffic stop with tactical awareness and use good tactics? Hell yes! BUT…. one of your best lessons was when the only tool in the box is a hammer.. every problem looks like a nail. So quit making every beat cop into SWAT Bob.

    Put them back in the uniforms of cops instead of rambo mall cops and their minds will follow.

    Sorry to be so harsh, you have my respect and have taught me a lot. But…… cops are people. Expect them to act accordingly.

    Scott Parsons

  102. Superfuzz Says:

    There are bad members of any profession…absolutely. They exist in the military, politics, law enforcement, etc…they also exist in pharmecies, schools, daycare, hospitals, insurance companies, the oil field, constuction, etc. In short bad people are everywhere. Someone has to be the barrier between those who do harm and everyone else.

    If you dont want negative LEO attention dont drive while stupid/intoxicated/under the influence, dont carry a concealed firearm in a manner to draw attention to yourself or without a license, dont smoke/carry/purchase a controlled substance without a prescription, dont call attention to yourself in public by arguing/throwing a snowball at passing cars/causing a public disturbance. In other words, you dont have to like the law to follow it. Failing to follow the law, eventually, gurantees a visit from your neighborhood LEO.

    IMO, the vast majority of these complaints are brought about by people who were already violating one staute or another. Complaints about abuses are often brought about by those upset because they caught doing something they were not supposed to do in the first place.

    Legitimate complaints are greatly outnumbered by the BS ones…that is one reason, its hard to get any traction behind them. Not to mention the potental embarassment to elected officials…in other words they dont want to do anything to rock the boat. While we’re on the topic of elected officials…if you don’t like the laws or dont care for the officials “servicing/ignoring” your complaints, quit electing them. In the end that is the real power of the majority. If folks could focus their limited attention span longer than a local news sound bite, maybe some progress coud be made.

    My $.02 and worth every penny you paid.

  103. Mark Matis Says:

    So Superfuzz, you’re OK with “Law Enforcement” spitting on their oath of office to “…preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution…” as soon as they suspect ANYONE of “violating one statute or another?” And their fellow officers who play Sergeant Schultz are fine officers as well? Yeah, that’s about what I expect from “Law Enforcement.” And that is why I thank God every time he sends another to rot where they belong. Because at least HE is just.

  104. Captain Bob Says:

    Superfuzz, can I get a refund?

  105. Henry Bowman Says:

    Rob R. and pals need to understand this: to paraphrase Forrest Gump, police are like a box of mushrooms. At the end of the meal, the number of mushrooms in the box that WEREN’T poisonous doesn’t mean a good g***mn to anybody.

    Abusive police are removed from their jobs just about as often as incompetent public schoolteachers are removed from theirs. Accountability in the world of government paychecks is next to nonexistent. Within thirty years, people like Carl Drega will be recognized as the leading indicator of a social watershed.

  106. Sgt. Adams Says:

    Mr. Ayoob. Police officers routinely approach citizens with their hand on their service weapon these days. They do this for routine traffic stops, when questioning potential witnesses and so on.

    This is just one reason why honest citizens fear and hate the police.

    If I approached you with my hand on a weapon would you love me for doing so?

  107. Jeffersonian Says:

    Mas? You still there? Or are you trapped in your worldview and can’t get out?

  108. Toaster802 Says:

    Rob R. and Superbuzz go on to prove with their posts all of the negative perceptions of the average citizen has with their “us vs. them” and “your all perps” on full display. Nice going and thanks a lot for proving We the Peoples point…

    This is the outcome of that poison fruit. But of course, only us Mundanes are to blame. Not those that rather then defusing the situation resort to CERT tactics. Welcome to the reservation kids.

    http://observers.france24.com/content/20110506-police-shut-down-college-block-party-pepper-spray

    Think what you will. But very few people who witness this kind of thing end up feeling good and safe around law enforcement. Justified by “law” or not. The crowd could have been dispersed by traditional means. Instead, the LRAD, the dogs, and the truncheons come out. Nice.

    Congrats, acting like an occupying army gets you treated like one.

    This is a sad, sad thing. I weep for my country.

  109. Superfuzz Says:

    Im not law enforcement…though, I do support their efforts and understand what it is to reviled while doing your job. Im military, currently deployed on my 4th combat deployment since 9/11. Im a citizen and veteran of 21yrs service. I dont support criminality. Im a proud proponent of the 2nd Amendment, capital punishment, and a Libertarian. Now that I have that out of the way…sorry it took me so long to get back to the internet to reply.

    At no time did I endorse wrong doing on the part of any LEO or anyone else for that matter. The focus of my commentary was directed at those who keep singling out LEO’s as the enemy. The old adage “No one likes a cop, until they need one” comes to mind.

    The problems with modern society can not be laid solely at the feet of the citizenry (lawful/criminal) or those who make/enforce the laws in the first place. Everyone shares some of the blame. Unfortunately the only people who truly suffer in this are the lawful (Citizens/LEO). Everyone else gets over. Especially since in the case of Law Enforcement, if you wear a badge youre percieved as a jackbooted thug because someone put a partial video on youtube.

    I would like to comment on folks complaining about individual LEO techniques. Cops performing “routine” traffic stops (no such thing) with their hand on their sidearm. You do realize that Cops get killed every year on “Routine” traffic stops right? Dont come to AStan/Iraq if you think that is over the top. We will make you cry yourself to sleep. I prefer LEO, err on the side of caution. As long as they serve within the constraints of their oath/position there is no problem. People need to not be so sensitive.

    I will say one thing regarding monday morning quarterbacking. If you arn’t there making decisions based upon your experiences, education/training, and the individual situation its very easy to complain about how things didnt work out or how you would have done it better…much harder to actually do it yourself.

  110. Superfuzz Says:

    Mark Matis reading comprehension is your friend…Im not sure where you got the impression I was in favor of anything you said. But ok. BTW…you may want to rethink your paragon of justice. In my experience he doesnt take a tangible stand, either way.

    Captain Bob…sure. Its called the back button, enjoy.

    Toaster802…I fail to see how my post reinforces a negative stereotype. By the way I think youre confusing your metaphors. Regarding witnessing this “kind of thing”. The problem most of these internet vigilante’s tend to not be actual witnesses. They read a story, saw a video, talked to their buddies, about 4th and 5th hand knowledge and all the sudden their a self-righteous paladin of light and law. Of course Im over-genaeralizing a bit…but then again arent we all?

  111. dsd Says:

    “I would like to comment on folks complaining about individual LEO techniques. Cops performing “routine” traffic stops (no such thing) with their hand on their sidearm. You do realize that Cops get killed every year on “Routine” traffic stops right? Dont come to AStan/Iraq if you think that is over the top. We will make you cry yourself to sleep. I prefer LEO, err on the side of caution. As long as they serve within the constraints of their oath/position there is no problem. People need to not be so sensitive.”

    citizens get killed in routine traffic stops too. should cops stop being so sensitive?

    i agree that many “rough cop” situations are often justified when the facts are clear – but too many as well are not justified. a full grown 200+lb cop shoving a 15 year old girl who is walking away into a brick wall is nothing more then a full on physical assault.

    if a citizen would be arrested or guilty of a crime for an action (with no valid justification) then an officer should as well.

    if a citizen if being attacked by a criminal with a gun then a citizen should be able to defend themselves with a weapon – the same for any officer.

    too often with everyday citizens the escalation is brought about by the police FIRST. if a person ran a stop sign and an officer arrived with a gun in your face – that is an escalation.

    if you heard noise outside your house and got a gun because you thought you may be broken into – an officer could shoot you through a window because “you were armed” there was a new story of a very old women who was killed by officers outside her house this way.

    could a citizen shoot someone simply because they saw they had a gun? what it if it was an undercover cop approaching your residence gun in hand and had not yet announced who they were? would you be not-guilty? since when do officers alone have the justification of being concerned for their safety?

    the problem is officers can escalate the situation until the person reacts and then they are guilty of a crime! now they can back-justify any actions even though they were in fact the ones that provoked the now outcome.

    if a citizen walked up to someone with a gun in hand “just in case” they were bad – that citizen would be guilty of a crime. an officer doing the same without provocation or in defense of them self is guilty of the crimes the same as any citizen should be.

    because the officers are being protected by the unions and other rogue officers all in the “we were afraid” defense is why they can get away with it. could a citizen do the same and get away with it? not without hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal defense (that is if they did not get killed beforehand)

    do you realize there are growing numbers of home invasions from criminals either dressed or saying they are police and demanding you open the door?

    are you aware of how many carjackings occur just from someone walking up to your car?

    so you are authorizing and validating that every citizen can walk around armed because we may be concerned for our safety as well? – a concerned citizen should keep their hand on a weapon when anyone including an officer (or a criminal dressed as one) approaches your home or car? “just in case” it may be an unsafe situation?

    or are citizens not allowed to protect themselves or be concerned for their own safety?

    do you see how you cannot validate these actions by a few events (although as distressing as they are and i truly do not want any officers hurt in the line of duty)

    our government put up these scanners at airports due to a failed shoe and underwear bomber – although recently they have been “testing” these same scanners at train stations – then “surprise” just found documents indicating OBL was contemplating attacking trains (although never did or even seem to get past the discussion stage)

    now very soon expect to see these x-ray stations at every train station – next i predict a car bombing will occur somewhere and then the government can justify the event to put their mobile x-ray scanners at all major highways to scan cars and trucks as they drive by – as well as license plate scanning and facial recognition systems -(by the way some red light camera systems and dash cams in squad cars already do this)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDjZRGYqqs4

    justifying the act of punishing the entire country by the actions of a few is completely backwards to our legal system. everyone is now guilty and treated as such until they are hard won proven not guilty (for now)

    this is a completely unacceptable pattern of justification.

  112. Mark Matis Says:

    Superfuzz, reading comprehension might be your friend as well, some day. Not sure where you got the idea that I think you favor even ONE thing that I said. Let me reassure you that I did not. And let me say the feeling is mutual. Also not sure who you are calling my “paragon of justice”. Maybe you could enlighten me there.

    In the meantime, how about you actually READ the Constitution that you swore an oath to. It doesn’t matter what the meaning of “is” is. The Thugs with Guns violate that oath on a daily basis, and the so-called “good cops” look the other way. The stench is overwhelming.

  113. Matt Deering Says:

    Let’s see… in Indianapolis just in the last 2-3 years we’ve had police officers arrested for
    DUI (numerous, one with a death)
    Arson (a serial arsonist, no less)
    Running a prostitution ring
    Planting drugs on seemingly innocent folks
    Perjury
    Selling drugs
    Several hit and runs, both on and off duty

    You think a lot of people hate cops? You’re damn right a lot of them do, and a lot of the cops deserve the hate. What really pisses off the average person is how the police departments do everything they can to cover it up instead of hanging these losers out to dry.

    And this is coming from a guy that’s never even had a speeding ticket.

  114. Pets Stop Dg3 Says:

    […] Massad Ayoob » Blog Archive » SOBERING KNOWLEDGE FROM COPS My advice to private citizens on this topic, is that when you hear staccato gunfire, screams and revving engines- get your ass out of sight and behind something that will stop your deer rifle. Lay low until its over, unless you feel the It also makes the local LEO's obligated to back up or provide the muscle for those federal no-knock warrants where pets are shot or kicked to death in the name of officer safety and sometimes children are injured. […]

  115. john b Says:

    Well in Spokane Washington, a city of roughly 200,000, the cops were helping to curb growth, by killing at one innocent person every month from January to June. I presume they either got their rogue cops in hand, or got better at covering up.

    The rule in our neighborhood is ‘Call a cop, Leave our community!’ If you’re the kind of person who calls rabid dogs into our midst, we don’t want to know you!

    And Mas! I don’t blame you for your attitude, I did think you were better than that! I’m saddened to see that you are what the cab driver in Harvey called, “A normal human being.”

  116. Larry Goodin Says:

    Great article although very eye opening. I believe terrorists are a big threat to our general population as well to police officers. It is a very noble and honorable task to become a police officer. The duties of a police officer place him or her in harms way every time they put on that uniform. Thank God for each one who chooses to protect his/her community and country.I have several members of my family that are in law enforcement. http://www.how-to-become-a-cop.com/duties-of-a-police-officer.html is a good site for those who would like to become a cop.

  117. Former LEO Says:

    This talk about Beslan & Mumbai covers the hypothetical importation of tactics that worked only because these happened in countries with a disarmed citizenry. What is missing from the debate is the actual acts of terrorism that repeat with grave regularity in the USA at the hands of police who forget they’re public SERVANTS, sworn to uphold the Constitution.

    …Or has everyone forgotten Ruby Ridge, Waco & Katrina? What about the daily enforcement activity of America’s oldest remaining active terrorist organization, the IRS??

    Oh, and let’s not forget the BATFE – and the ‘Gunwalker’ scandal, and the massive DOJ coverup of the original scandal?

    And a buddy of mine in the US Marshal’s service told me on good authority that Oklahoma City was a federal op, which my dad – also an agent, God rest his soul – concurred; and that Lee Harvey McVeigh was simply the designated fallguy, which opens another can of worms regarding WTC’93 (failed false flag) and 9/11 (successful false flag?). Hmm… wonder if that’s what Dubya meant when he said, “If the American people knew what we have done, they would string us up from the lamp posts”.

    Latest polls show the overwhelming number of those polled believe that the US Gov’t represents the most immediate threat to their life, liberty, and property than al-CIA-da or some 3rd world tinpot like Chavez, Assad or Ahmadinejad. Of that percentage, more than half believed the threat our gubbint poses is an absolutely imminent threat!

    When cops brutally crush peaceful dissent (i.e. OWS) and the Congress floats a bill (S.1867) to replace the criminal justice system with martial law / indefinite detention / no habeas corpus, cops had better worry instead about what America will look like under a 2nd civil war: http://jpfo.org/kirby/kirby-2nd-civil-war.htm

    Read especially the part starting with the paragraph above the large hyperlinked line midway through the page. Know what a 3%’er is (http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com). And most of all, if you see a fellow officer violating someone’s rights or otherwise just behaving like a jackbooted thug to someone who’s clearly not a street urchin, educate your colleague. When the feds finally step on their own d!@% for the last time, you’ll be thankful that you got to know the community you patrol, and that this community got to know the real you who’s just like them. Otherwise when TSHTF they may only see ‘another uniform’.

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